Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Ouch Quit It]

Dont go changing...to try and please me...

[TylerDB]

and Tomahawks do throw VERY well

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28181[/ATTACH]

 

This would be a fun find in those archeological sites haha

[madmole]

This may be true but those noobs turn into 1000 plus hour gamers. IF there is a reason to. We had reason to. We didnt gain our 1000 plus playing A17, we gained it playing a game that for 16 alphas your team and yourself thought good enough to present.

 

So now the shift in focus is to lure the new gamers in, practically abandoning the majority of your long time fans and community. Things like farming and mining are not supposed to be noob friendly. If you make EVERYTHING noob friendly then what kind of game do you have left?

 

I find it hilarious you often put down Ark as stupid. Its not the first time you have posted this. Yet look at Arks numbers. Several years later they hold quite strong. And they retain their core community because they dont reinvent the wheel. They add to it, make it more complex and give people reasons to come back, reasons to stay in game longer and reasons to progress. 7 Days is quickly running out of these reasons.

 

There used to be a time when wiping hurt. Because things took a while to learn and achieve. Now it seems like wiping isnt so bad because in a few days you will have it all back again.

 

Ill always be a fan of you and this game but it saddens me. I know Im not the target audience anymore. How long anyone plays this game for means nothing to you and the team. Its the sale. You make no more if they play 10 minutes or 10 years. Lets just hope all these new customers become the die hards we used to be so the positive word of mouth can be passed down to a new generation.

Dude chillax. There is no shift in focus, I'm trying to teach you guys some game design. I didn't say I was dumbing down farming, I said there is no reason to complicate it and alienate new players, something that SHOULD be a concern to you if you want an amazing sequel we need to finish 7 Days in a way that profits and has the most mass appeal. You always have to ask yourself, is this needlessly complicated? Do I need a wiki or youtube tutorial to understand it?

 

I love Ark, but is it perfect? Hell no its stupid as ♥♥♥♥ in a lot of ways but with a few mods and some good friends to play with it can be pretty fun. Having to run pipes with their crappy building system and feed the dino stuff to make him ♥♥♥♥ is just too much. You can't even plant in the dirt, so whatever. Its not farming its a greenhouse simulator. Then the 12 hours it takes to tame? Ridiculous small stack counts? Very few things from Ark have inspired our design choices, that is for sure.

 

Then they sold scorched earth as a dlc before releasing a season pass. Literally screwed customers. Then the flier nerf. I could go on and on about a lot of klunky systems it has. None of this stopped me from enjoying it for the systems that were fun. Well it did initially, but some friends told me with mods and and options its fun so I came back and got over the learning curve and got a lot of hours in it then.

 

Our game will always be hard and a challenge, but it should be accessible and not impossible to learn. We totally care about all the fans, but a lot of you are so bored you are here instead of enjoying the game, and idle hands are the devils workshop.

 

Skyrim is an amazing game but I have 2000 hours so the only thing keeping it remotely interesting is mods, roleplay and weird builds. You sir are at that point where you want the game to scratch that itch, but it just can't. It can't. All you can do is shelf it and come back later and hope to feel a bit of that magic one more time. Its just the normal process. Games aren't intended to last 10000 hours. Its interesting when they do but at a certain point people need new stimulus, like a sequel. Skyrim was the only thing that fixed why I was bored with Oblivion, despite having some great mods. Once you log so many hours it gets harder and harder to find the magic. People aren't meant to do the same crap over and over again, we're meant to learn new things and expand and grow.

[madmole]

Well as of right now it is correct... and is until A18 exists. Besides, I wasn't just referring to combat. I know these days when people think 7D2D you think zombie killing... but for most of us it's also mining, resource gathering, building... of which you need to have a nice balance of to play single player.

 

No you only need two attributes to do that. How does that make you a jack of all trades?

[BadabingbadaBOOMSDAY!]

Gifff 17.3......Gifff

[madmole]

Yes. The devs have already stated that they are making many more POI's and that many are not going to be the dungeion style that we got with many of the new POI's added in 17.

 

So, what is your point then? The old POI's are terrible as they were not final products. New POI's are coming that will fill the simple POI role.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

MM,

 

I have seen little to nothing posted on solar power for a long time. Right now, solar is utterly useless because the performance impact is insane on even simple circuits. I really, really, REALLY want to convert to a renewable power system but it is just not feasible at the moment. Is there any indication on when this may change if at all? Are there any additions that you guys really think is going to be made to electrical options?

I'm having the testers see if they can reproduce this.

[madmole]

Agree completely. Simple elegance is always the desired outcome.

 

Yes and when I talk about this some forum rats act like we're ♥♥♥♥ting on the veteran players lol. Better designs are better designs.

[madmole]

This sounds terrible. Just because someone who is a good doctor does not mean they cannot be a good chief and so on. This seems like limiting the game for the sake of just limiting the game.

 

What's good atm is that you start off as a weakling however, after hard work and time you can become a terminator. You have earned it as you have fought off all and survived. Having these limits just limits fun. The first thing I'll do in A18 is have to increase the points given for leveling up. If the game only gets harder, then why can't I?

 

I'm sorry what sounds terrible?

[madmole]

You've mentioned that there will be a melee weapon and a ranged weapon for each attribute - but how will that work for armour? Are you planning on having a different armour type per attribute too, or just sticking to a couple of perks for "light" and "heavy" armour?

 

If you want armor wear it. It just won't be as awesome until you perk into it. Most players will want two or more attributes pretty high, but it won't be impossible to have just one high attribute and be pretty kickass. There is basically sniper, shotgunner, machinegunner, bowman stealth handgun guy, and turret/taser nerd.

[madmole]

I think you are misunderstanding his intention. He intends to make it so that you can be successful without needing to go deep in more than one attribute. In A17 you might want to go deep in strength but you will also have to go deep in Intelligence if you want to be able to craft things like vehicles or top tier food and medicine and tools and weapons.

 

He isn't planning on limiting us to one attribute. He is planning on freeing us from the dependence upon the Intelligence attribute. You will still be able to progress and purchase perks from all five attributes if you want. But in A18 the intention is that if you want to roleplay an agility based character you will be able to do craft top tier gear that will support that attribute and be able to do well in the game without needing to perk heavily into additional attributes.

Exactly this.

[Damocles]

Having a hand to hand perk and boost (knuckles) would be great. In Skyrim I have always tried to be a dedicated boxer.

[madmole]

You read that different than I did. He did not state you cannot be good at multiple things - he stated that you only HAVE to be good at one thing. There is a massive difference. In 17.2, being a per character simply is not viable. At least not viable if you want to explore the game.

Why? Because mining is under str and crafting is under int - building and crafting a huge parts of gameplay. It sounds to me like they are addressing that by making a specialized build quite viable for the whole game - your crafting and options will be open even if you are a very heavy per player. You are still going to branch out.

 

Overall, what I want to see out of the progression system is a bunch of perks that I really want and have some open ended options. Right now I feel like the perk system is set - most perks have already been chosen for me because they are so integral into gameplay.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

You know roland - you did not need to beat me to the punch

I think the books will help give you some complimentary perks that really flesh out most peoples ideal play styles and enhance the perks.

[madmole]

I agree with the biker and the caveman...thats bull♥♥♥♥ to toss out long time players ...we helped make the game what it is and to be tossed aside makes me doubt future purchases of TFP. Classic games are made from the support of fans/players....but you did say you were aiming for the 20 hour players...now we know you meant it. Sad

 

Holy ♥♥♥♥ you win misinterpretation of the year award. How does focusing on polishing the game hurt the veterans who crawled over broken glass to play this game? It improves the experience for everyone. How can anyone become a veteran if the first experience isn't fun? Are you angry that new players won't get stuttering and crashes? We're aiming at making sure the first 20 hours are a blast, so they can become 2000 hour guys. JEEZ COUGH COUGH

[madmole]

Twas I good sir. It came to my attention that mines were in a bit of a crum-a-grackle. Yes, they are quite limpsey at giving zomboys a good razzleling I'd say.

 

LOL. I do know explosives are pretty fixed. I have to shoot some rockets to verify, but I heard it was pretty cool.

[madmole]

I don't think they are just tossing aside the longtime players at all, at least I don't see it that way.

They have been making modding more robust, It might not end up being everything we would like it to be, in every area, but that's anything but tossing aside the long timers.

 

As for them focusing on the 20hr game.. yeah, that's a bit disappointing but,"It is What it is" and not uncommon with most of the games on the market. I took them at their word when they said this awhile ago, so I didn't hold much hope they would deviate from it all that much.

Anyhow, even with them going after the 20hr game, the game already provide more than 20hrs of play. All the long time players with 1000's of hours in, are proof of that.

 

heh, even games that say they have 60+hrs of game play, blah blah blah.. really don't. If you play them straight through and don't bother with all the side stuff that doesn't really matter in those games, it's really more than 20hrs as well. I've play many of them.

 

I just don't really understand why people are getting hurt and feeling rebuffed when they say that is all.

lol I'm probably the weird one I guess.

Its not like our updates go back in time and strip them of the fun they had. I think they misinterpret polish up the first twenty hours to be AA, to cut it down to a 20 hour experience?

[madmole]

Thats too bad. I was just thiking that the traps would be end game stuff, big versions of tiny traps and fences but very expensive to make like tank trap spike would be 300 steels to craft and high durability. For fire barrels have spikes on the side that would impale zombies and burn them while there stuck on it. Ijust want fire barrels to be usefull for something else not just light source.

 

But im excited to your flamethrower and bear traps.

Thank you MM!

Keep up the good work!!!

A18 HYPED.

 

Maybe more stuff later, I don't have a crystal ball. I need to get the game to where I'm engaged to play some late game stuff and then I'm sure I'll be inspired to make more late game content. I feel like I need to get the first 100 hours feeling tight though, then move on to that.

[madmole]

I think the problem for some is they don't realize how close the game is to going gold. In the first few years there was all this untapped potential of what could be and it was fun to speculate and throw out answers and Madmole could always answer with "Sure, if we can" or "Maybe, because that sounds like a good idea" because there were so many possibilities while the journey was still near the beginning. Now we are at the end and the only answers to suggestions can be "No" or "Maybe, next game".

 

It's not that Madmole wants to disappoint us or shut down our dreams. It is just the nature of where the game is in development. It is also where the first 20 hours comment comes in. That is their focus RIGHT NOW. They are currently only wanting to get things done and ready for full release and to leave early access and so are resistant to distractions. If it won't help the game go to market and make a great first impression then they don't want to hear about it.

 

Does this mean they don't care about those who put 1000s of hours in or that they only want a game that lasts 20 hours?

 

OF COURSE NOT!!!!

 

Madmole has stated time and again that they plan to continue to support the game for a minimum of 2 years after gold. The content updates they release during that time will most certainly be for 20+ hour gaming. Let them focus on getting the game done and in a tip top best possible first impression shape for their full release launch and THEN it will be our time.

Thanks Roland, this pretty much sums things up. We need to ship the game, then we can always focus on post gold patches.

[madmole]

everyone sets their dificulty level when starting, couldn't you tie that to the biome you spawn in?

 

Only server operators control the difficulty. Imagine on 5 you spawn in the wasteland and die repeatedly because you don't have hazmat gear.

 

Anyhow, I think we should all be talking about A18, not pie in the sky or future stuff.

[madmole]

If we are so close to gold (and yeh, I actually do believe we are) then why so many major shifts in how things work?

 

Even mm begrudgingly admitted 17 wasn't well received; perhaps they should have a serious conversation about pushing gold back, so that their final vision of the game is at least as awesome as the earlier iterations?

 

I'm not whining about being forgotten about, I recognize my money was spent a long time ago and I'm cool with that, but they're fixing to release a fairly boring game with a target audience of 20 to 30 hours, when they HAD a game that gave people thousands of hours...

 

It just doesn't make sense. Recidivism.

What is close at the 6.4 year mark? And A17 was in the works about 2 years ago, so its more about finishing that up to a shippable quality.

 

And for the love of god read my other recent post about the 20 hour thing, FFS.

[BioFringe]

I don't post much but I have read every word in this thread as well as every other dev thread since a14 and I just had to point out a couple of things that I feel are being missed...

 

Dude chillax. There is no shift in focus, I'm trying to teach you guys some game design. I didn't say I was dumbing down farming, I said there is no reason to complicate it and alienate new players, something that SHOULD be a concern to you if you want an amazing sequel we need to finish 7 Days in a way that profits and has the most mass appeal. You always have to ask yourself, is this needlessly complicated? Do I need a wiki or youtube tutorial to understand it?

 

You haven't made enough money already that you need even more for a sequel to exist? I've seen plenty of knowledgeable folks in this thread try to teach you some game design but you seem very adverse towards it so why shouldn't they when you do the same? Also, some of the best games need wiki's and that in no way undermines how good they are. In fact, I'd say the opposite...if you don't need a wiki then you've gone too simple with your design.

 

I love Ark, but is it perfect? Hell no its stupid as ♥♥♥♥ in a lot of ways but with a few mods and some good friends to play with it can be pretty fun. Having to run pipes with their crappy building system and feed the dino stuff to make him ♥♥♥♥ is just too much. You can't even plant in the dirt, so whatever. Its not farming its a greenhouse simulator. Then the 12 hours it takes to tame? Ridiculous small stack counts? Very few things from Ark have inspired our design choices, that is for sure.

 

Ark shouldn't be your standard. There are plenty of other games out there that do farming right. Ark might not be one of them but neither is 7 Days. Also, at least Ark has animal taming.

 

Then they sold scorched earth as a dlc before releasing a season pass. Literally screwed customers. Then the flier nerf. I could go on and on about a lot of klunky systems it has. None of this stopped me from enjoying it for the systems that were fun. Well it did initially, but some friends told me with mods and and options its fun so I came back and got over the learning curve and got a lot of hours in it then.

And yet you released an Alpha version on consoles and screwed over all of those customers. You probably see it differently but I assure you that they don't. Also, are you admitting that a broken game needs mods to be good or worthy of playing? I believe that and so do many others but I don't think you realize that that is the state 7 Days is in right now.

 

Our game will always be hard and a challenge, but it should be accessible and not impossible to learn. We totally care about all the fans, but a lot of you are so bored you are here instead of enjoying the game, and idle hands are the devils workshop.

Why are they bored? Maybe because they can't enjoy the game? Hence, why they are here trying to help you to fix it.

 

Skyrim is an amazing game but I have 2000 hours so the only thing keeping it remotely interesting is mods, roleplay and weird builds. You sir are at that point where you want the game to scratch that itch, but it just can't. It can't. All you can do is shelf it and come back later and hope to feel a bit of that magic one more time. Its just the normal process. Games aren't intended to last 10000 hours. Its interesting when they do but at a certain point people need new stimulus, like a sequel. Skyrim was the only thing that fixed why I was bored with Oblivion, despite having some great mods. Once you log so many hours it gets harder and harder to find the magic. People aren't meant to do the same crap over and over again, we're meant to learn new things and expand and grow.

 

How is it that these same people weren't bored before A17 yet they had 1000s of hours invested already before that? Your customers want to learn new things and expand and grow but it seems that the game is going in the opposite direction. Every time someone makes a suggestion on how something could expand and grow (farming...pun intended) you shoot it down as too complicated. Sounds to me like you're the one that doesn't want to grow. Also, there are plenty of games that developed with 1000s of hours in mind. One of them is one that you claimed to want to emulate and was part of the reason that I purchased this game. Now I find out that your focus is on 20-30 hours and yes I've heard all the justification of that but the reality is that that is exactly what you've got now...a game that most of us only play for 20-30 hours before moving on to another game.

 

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here so please don't hate on me. I really love 7 Days and I fully respect you, Roland and The Fun Pimps. It just seems that some of the points that others are trying to make are falling on deaf ears. That may not be the case and it might just be a matter of how things are presented. Either way, this is all personal thoughts and some opinions thrown it. Good luck with everything. Despite what you might think we still wish you nothing but the best because we believe in you and want this game to succeed. Peace.

[madmole]

Am I the only one thinks that this 20-30 hour stuff is filling the early game with more cool stuff/content/experience, just as we have later on..lategame ? That is how many more people will be attracted and noone will leave..

 

Cmon, its not serious to think that they will just leave hardcore players just like that. Flat eartheners !

 

 

 

I hope I never see a further discussion on this topic.

 

I second that, the notion is ridiculous. We're focused on the 20-30 hour player right now, (and actually adding many T3 items you can find late game) and later we can focus on the 100 hour+ experience, because we'll have you all by then anyway. We don't like 2 hour players slipping through our fingers over an ARK like experience that I had is all. So if we make the first 30 hours play great, and easy to understand they might get to all the late game content. But if they are stonewalled at 1 hour and rage quit, its just cutting us off at the kneecaps, and that will affect our ability to add more late game content. So like it or not, the Johnny Newcomes are paying the bills to move forward.

[madmole]

Having a hand to hand perk and boost (knuckles) would be great. In Skyrim I have always tried to be a dedicated boxer.

 

Except they didn't have a perk tree dedicated to it and it was biased towards the Kajiit. It was a sub skill of heavy armor, it never really felt that great. You can do it in Fallout 4 but its cheesy using vats all the time to close the distance in a milisecond.

[madmole]

I don't post much but I have read every word in this thread as well as every other dev thread since a14 and I just had to point out a couple of things that I feel are being missed...

 

 

 

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here so please don't hate on me. I really love 7 Days and I fully respect you, Roland and The Fun Pimps. It just seems that some of the points that others are trying to make are falling on deaf ears. That may not be the case and it might just be a matter of how things are presented. Either way, this is all personal thoughts and some opinions thrown it. Good luck with everything. Despite what you might think we still wish you nothing but the best because we believe in you and want this game to succeed. Peace.

Farming is done. It works. Its not a major component of the game and most players don't even bother with it, why should we redesign it for the 20th time? There are a lot of players tired of us changing things that don't need changed, and I'm saying farming is one of those things.

 

Anyhow we're working on making most of the A16 players happier, I think it was the lack of a reason to go looting and too much stamina drain and too much grind and level gates and performance all at once causing most of the grief. We're working hard to overcome these issues and I am truly excited for A18 I think the progression system is going to be much better. We're planning on testing and balancing quite a while before it goes out, so hopefully we can redeem ourselves to the long time fans.

[xyth]

Based on all I have read, it sounds like the current development strategy is sound. The game needs to pass the 20 hour newbie test first before anything else is focused on. Did they stay and want more after 20 hours? If not, you have major problems. In my view, a game is much like a story, with three phases. Those first 20 hours introduce the plot, characters etc. The middle is where things develop and significant challenges occur. The end game varies, but it can be pursuing individual goals like just survive, be all you can be, or chill out and create.

 

To me, as a 2000+ hour player (although id guess 1/2 of that is developing/testing mods) who had a long career as a director of software development teams, the current game offers good content and progression for all three phases. With the modding hooks, it is possible to make this sandbox tell just about any story one could imagine. It is impossible for TFP to deliver everyone's idea of "their" personal story, so we get TFPs story and the tools to make it our own. That is more than enough for me.

[hiigaran]

Reading a lot of coments.. the main critics i think about this game are the amount of content dedicated to the RPG aspect.the level system..the amount of data in the screen transform the game mecanics in meta games...

I want to hide..i want to administrate ammo And food..zombies are XP piٌatas..not things to fear And avoid

 

there are low content oriented to give us a real Survival experience..all is predictible..i know the amount of hits to kill a zombie or what kind of loot a POI has.

In early alphas we didnt know nothing.going arround with fear

Now with a blue machete And a few perks i dont fear nothing.

Medicines ammo And food needs to be scare.. realy scare

Extend that fear from early to end game..i think the +2000 hours players want this

 

Sorry for the inglish.