Regarding Melee mechanic

[Spider]

@unholyjoe-

Unless TFP add new xml code perks like that can not be currently made without SDX and recoding the core game code.

 

 

I really cant understand the push back to some of these criticisms players are posting that are clear as day. The point the OP makes is completely true. The melee swings do not act as they should period. No opinions that's fact. A baseball bat swung in an arch should not only make contact at one specific point in 3d space, that's common sense. And I hope, hope, hope that TFP just haven't gotten around to doing it proper yet. But Gazz is also correct in saying that its always been this way but it is true for some reason it seems more noticeable this alpha and I'm not sure why.

 

 

 

+1 for Fixing Melee Fighting

[Balkoth]

Keep in mind that the current system allows you to do a headshot even if the zombies arms are swinging around wildly. If the blow came in from the side with proper hit detection it'd hit the zombie's arm instead and then we'd have people complaining about that. This cuts both ways.

[Gazz]

Keep in mind that the current system allows you to do a headshot even if the zombies arms are swinging around wildly. If the blow came in from the side with proper hit detection it'd hit the zombie's arm instead and then we'd have people complaining about that. This cuts both ways.

If you have been following forum threads in general you should know that players tend to focus on the one tiny aspect that is not to their liking, not how it works within the full scope of the game.

[Kilroy83]

Hitting a wall behind your target with a melee weapon at close range makes absolutely no sense, an early swing is an ok miss, if you miss anything else with a big ass sledgehammer your character doesn't deserve to be a survivor... oh now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense considering the moron you are early game

[manni44]

i would say current system is working as intended

 

https://www.twitch.tv/beardedguysgaming/clip/CrispyPolishedCroissantJonCarnage?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

[Deceptive Pastry]

Just going to post the same thing I did in another melee thread. Something like this could be done with ray casts on horizontal swings:

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318

 

Hitting multiple targets: In order to prevent one melee swing from hitting multiple zombies (maybe making it too powerful), could set it so after the first time a ray connects with a target, the rest of the rays do no damage or don't fire.

 

Hitting blocks: If you don't want it so you're damaging multiple blocks around you or having your swing not connect with zombies because it hits a wall first, Could make it so the fan of rays only interact with/damage entities, but also on swing a single "block ray" is fired directly forward that only damages blocks.

[Kattla]

No video, I don't believe you.

 

The last few times i posted videos , youtube make them bad quality.

Besides, it is only about 10 minuts of jumping about killing 50 zombies. Nothing special.

But, it's coming.

[Ranzera]

One thing I've noticed is that the grand majority of them time when i attack a zed that's on the ground, the game prioritizes the terrain as a target. That's certainly a departure from A16. Attacking zeds on the ground in grass is an exercise in futility.

[Scyris]

That moment when you aim for the head and hit the wall behind...

 

Did this more times than I can count because the zombie moved its head a few pixels out of the center of the crosshair. The way the sledgehammer swings if I miss the head it should be hitting the torso for sure from its swing animation, the problem is it doesn't. I've gotten used to it, but it has caused issues especally with multiple sprinting zombies that move their head like a bobblehead doll.

 

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To add to this I have noticed that if i DO miss its almost always when a zombie is in its animation. Be it a swing of their arm or a stumble forward, almost as if the hitbox may be "blinking". It's almost guaranteed to happen every time. I know I have thrown body shots at a stumbling zed and it completely goes through them during their animation.

 

If thats the case there is a problem somewhere for sure, because its hit box shouldn't be magically disapearing like that. I've seen this happen a few times myself, where a body hit that was aimed perfectly hit nothing but air, and I was for sure close enough as I could poke it if I just stuck my hand out a bit. I've gotten really good at judging the range on my sledgehammer swings.

[Guppycur]

No.

 

If the intended Target is the head, than the arc of the swing means the weapon's distance is longest at that point, as that is the farthest extension of the weapon, thus, a shorter extension on all other points of the swing's arc.

 

@roland, show the math.

[Scyris]

I don't think it is an FOV issue because I also set mine to 90 via the F1 command.

 

For me melee is one of the few things I am actually happy about in A17. In A16 it felt like the zombies arms were just as long as mine with a bat, so if I was close enough to hit them with a bat, then they were close enough to hit me without one, which i didn't think was right.

 

Now I can actually hit them and not get hit in return at the same distance.

 

The only thing I really really miss is how I could smack a body part, and it would explode off. A couple of times I managed to smash all a zombies limbs off before popping it's head. It was an endless source of amusement for me.

...wow, actually verbalising that makes me sound a bit like a psychopath. haha

 

Your not the only one I miss doing stuff like that too when I was bored. It'd not work so well in A17 though, as the headshot mults aren't as insane as they were in a16. female zombies have 125 hp, male 150, fatties are 250 for female 300 for male, tourist/soldier have higher (type dm and hit numpad 0 to see a popup come up with a ton of info on any entity nearby). On warrior diffculty you hit for about 20% less, however sadly the items stats don't drop to show this like in A16. I used to use taking out the legs as a mechanic for dealing with night zombies, turn them into crawlers and they are a lot less of a threat. Then again I also miss wooden spikes being a good weapon, usually in a16 it'd kill a zombie costing 2-3 stages, in a17 they can walk thru like 2 wood spikes and still be alive.

 

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Are you suggesting this or is this how it is?

 

If suggesting, I disagree. If it's how it currently is, I strongly disagree. =)

 

...it takes player skill entirely out of the equation in lieu of random dice rolls.

 

Might as well make it a turn based game.

 

Reminds me of Morrowind, hitting a enemy depending on your skill in that weapon type, so you could swing at it all day but if you have low skill you'll mostly miss. They changed that in oblivion and above, where if it looks like it hit, its a hit.

[Scyris]

I truly can not understand the issue. So many people have been complaining about melee hits that there must be something going on. I can't understand why I don't notice it though. I melee zombies from day 1 with little issue. I wish I wasn't so lazy or I'd figure out how to make a video of my melee combat.

 

Yeah I don't really notice all the problems people have with melee in A17, I've always meleed since I started the game, I only use the bow at night to kill zombies, or in poi's to get a 2x+damage bonus headshot for fast takedowns. Like someone said the main diff is now the animation is synced properly, so the actual hit is right when the weapon passes the crosshair (remember this!), I've gotten able to pre-swing with slower weapons like the fire axes and the sledge and still connect a headshot just as the zombie walked into range. In a16, the "hit" part was always badly desynced so you had to aim a bit above the head to actually land it.

 

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For me melee has become my go-to, way more so than any ranged. THe only ranged I use is compound bow with stealth for headshot kills. I haven't even touched a gun in my current playthrough, I don't need it. Way too much work to keep it in ammo when I can melee stuff down and kite or stealth and headshot with a bow, using a tiny fraction of the resources and not drawing attention.

 

I only really use guns if its bloodmoon night, or I have to deal with a suddend pack of ferals. Otherwise its sledgehammer and compound bow for me. My gun of choice in A17 is the shotgun, or ak47, or both. Ak47 with the semi-auto trigger group is an awesome gun. Bascally becomes a 30+ round pistol that hits like a truck. Pistol with a mag extender mod is pretty legit too, 22 round clips then.

[Scyris]

i would say current system is working as intended

 

https://www.twitch.tv/beardedguysgaming/clip/CrispyPolishedCroissantJonCarnage?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

 

My sides, man that was funny, he just got LAUNCHED like he was hit with a truck lol. Also, that hit SHOULD have hit that zombie, not the guy behind it.

[Kattla]

This doesn't really prove anything, but if there are enough targets, about 50, it's difficult to miss.

 

 

No, i am not happy with the videoquality. Wish i knew how to make it better. Suppose i could

search for how if i really bothered.

[Guppycur]

Huh. Thread title changed. Wonder why.

[Kilroy83]

Don't want to be that guy but when are we getting spears? 😜

[skullpoker]

lets try this...

 

* base system for melee gets redone and starts out at lowest stats

* sometime player misses target and hit closest body part (wild swing)

* player finds mod for club "swing like babe ruth" now when players swings at targets head and if makes good contact... targets head is sent out for a home run

* players till misses now and then

* wait, there is a perk now available - "getting better" now player is 50% better and not missing as much

* oooh whats this mod for "broadside of a barn" appears now every swing will make contact, just cant miss.

 

get the idea... but the base had to go in and all stats have to be at a descent lower level in order to allow for perks and mods for improvements. and this will take team work and time the ground works had to be fixed.

 

hope this explains it

 

of course i know many will want to argue me down... good luck.. i will not participate. i said my piece and i have as much right as anyone else.

 

Bruh, there's this new thing called "hitbox" that even the scrubs who made Soul Calibur got right. If I swing horizontally and the target dodges into any point of that horizontal swing, they get hit. If I swing vertically and the target is anywhere that that vertical swing is going, they get hit.

 

The way the melee currently works makes it seem like you're stabbing with a club or sledgehammer at a specific point. It's like the polar opposite of "broadside of a barn" and much more like "you missed the head by a single pixel, so therefore you miss the whole zombie." It's not like it's a new concept. Just make more of the weapon animation capable of hitting the target.

 

Similarly, when I aim at a clump of grass and swing 14 times, I should not miss the clump of grass and hit the ground behind it. This is not a small problem. It is a serious lack of Development expertise that should be viewed as a learning experience toward the evolution of the company.

[Druga Runda]

It may be that there is some sort of a bug there.

 

I initially tried melee with the first melee weapon (wooden bat/whatever it's called) and could not hit for the life of me, up close or from further away, so gave up on the idea.

 

Found a candy cane (nothing invested in the perks) and I am hitting them. Not perfect, but can hit and finish them just fine, so the system works as intended for the most part. That first weapon may either be glitched in some way, or the stats are so low that it mostly misses regular slow zombies.

[Scyris]

Bruh, there's this new thing called "hitbox" that even the scrubs who made Soul Calibur got right. If I swing horizontally and the target dodges into any point of that horizontal swing, they get hit. If I swing vertically and the target is anywhere that that vertical swing is going, they get hit.

 

The way the melee currently works makes it seem like you're stabbing with a club or sledgehammer at a specific point. It's like the polar opposite of "broadside of a barn" and much more like "you missed the head by a single pixel, so therefore you miss the whole zombie." It's not like it's a new concept. Just make more of the weapon animation capable of hitting the target.

 

Similarly, when I aim at a clump of grass and swing 14 times, I should not miss the clump of grass and hit the ground behind it. This is not a small problem. It is a serious lack of Development expertise that should be viewed as a learning experience toward the evolution of the company.

 

For the grass there is one grass model that is a pain in the butt to hit, it the one in a diamond shape, you can only really hit it from a few certan angles.

[Deceptive Pastry]

Your not the only one I miss doing stuff like that too when I was bored. It'd not work so well in A17 though, as the headshot mults aren't as insane as they were in a16.

 

You can add dismember chance with tags="leg,arm" to only have it affect limbs. I have this on a few weapons like the fireaxe at 66% chance and it's a lot of fun. What really makes me sad though is they seem to have taken out the dismember damage thresholds in favor of purely chance based, so doing higher amounts of damage doesn't mean higher chance to dismember. I had to go to great lengths to mod it so I got way more dismember chance without constant insta-kills - a calculation is done to check how much health the zombie has left and only increases the chance if your next shot would kill them anyway.

[JCrook1028]

This doesn't really prove anything, but if there are enough targets, about 50, it's difficult to miss.

 

 

No, i am not happy with the videoquality. Wish i knew how to make it better. Suppose i could

search for how if i really bothered.

 

Cool video. While I admit you made the point it is possible to take out 50 ferals melee it is also fair to say you were doing it with some serious end game skills. IE 200 stam and hp bars and serious parkour perks too I assume. So while I agree with you that melee is working pretty well in A17 I'm not sure that is the type of video to use as an example.

[Kattla]

Cool video. While I admit you made the point it is possible to take out 50 ferals melee it is also fair to say you were doing it with some serious end game skills. IE 200 stam and hp bars and serious parkour perks too I assume. So while I agree with you that melee is working pretty well in A17 I'm not sure that is the type of video to use as an example.

 

It was just made in response to the op's last paragraph, and he/she was not level specific. And even with 200 stam+perks,

i was pretty starved of stamina in the first half, before the group had been weakened enough for powerattacks to start

killing, and sex-rex giving back 50 stamina pr kill. But yes, parkour is pretty fun late game.

 

In my normal play, i put all zombies to walk during daytime, thanks for that change, and use a sledgehammer, or whatever

weapon i carry.

[Limdood]

The issue is the animation doesn't match the implementation.

 

Currently, the implementation is that EVERY melee attack is a precise stab. It hits the closest thing in range (which is sometimes grass clipping thru a prone zombie) SPECIFICALLY at the point of the crosshairs. Every melee weapon is a stab...sledgehammer stabs, club stabs, knife stabs, axe stabs, shovel stabs, etc. All of them impact ONLY things in a straight line from the player to the crosshair, out to the weapon's range.

 

The problem is that, with the exception of the shovel, EVERY melee weapon slashes or swings in an arc. So even though the weapon swings in a side to side, vertical, or diagonal arc, which would imply the possibility of impact along the entirety of the arcing swing, the implementation makes it function like a precision stab.

 

Now while i would love to see a spear implemented in the game, and I'm picturing a nice 7 foot haft, 2 foot blade, and a crossgiard at the base of the blade to stop anything you stabbed from advancing....man that'd be nice...

 

ahem...anyways, while i'd love to see a spear in the game...it isn't. All the weapons are chopping, slashing, or bashing weapons, and all of those weapons have the niche they do as effective weapons because ANY swing made in range forces the defender to dodge an entire plane of attack or deal with the strike (parry, block, etc.)....that currently doesn't exist in game. Instead, what we have are short spears of varying length and effectiveness that we're encouraged to strike for the head with...which is a dubious prospect with a spear even vs. living opponents

[Guest]

This doesn't really prove anything, but if there are enough targets, about 50, it's difficult to miss.

 

 

No, i am not happy with the videoquality. Wish i knew how to make it better. Suppose i could

search for how if i really bothered.

 

This is a fun little test, but it doesn't really say much about real in-game situations. Being perked out all the way, in an open space, with zombies hitting each other more than they hit you and blocking each other's paths, etc. You're just swinging into a big pile of flesh, obviously you're going to hit something. And even then, you whiff a few times, which only serves to prove the points people are making in this thread.

 

The problem, to me at least, are situations where a couple of zombies are all up in my face, I swing my huge club/hammer, and it doesn't connect to anything because the crosshair went off-pixel for a split second (almost impossible to control with the current animations/hitboxes). It feels like the weapon is in some other dimension from the zombies. At the same time, zombies will almost never miss if they're that close to you. I even get hit while sprinting past them.

[BobTheBard]

It's a bit of a running joke among the people I play with that a sledgehammer requires the same precision targeting as a sniper rifle because of the way it's implemented. It has an ingame impact too, since there are certain generic zombie types we consider harder because of how much their heads move around during their basic walking animations, with construction zombies, 'tweakers' (the shirtless guys in jean shorts), and hoodies being the biggest offenders.

 

On the other point, I'd rather hit more often for partial damage than have the all-or-nothing of melee headshots. My sledgehammer power attack is great and all, but it really is a gamble - If it hits I'll probably kill whatever I hit, but if I miss by even a pixel I have to back off and wait for stamina because of how much it costs. I'd rather hit more often for less damage (having narrowly-missed hits be body blows at the expense of also having some headshots be body blows) than feel like I'm just wasting an attack to a spastic animation.

 

I also feel like these wide-sweeping stamina-devouring power attacks should have an AoE component to them, letting me clear out hordes effectively and giving me a melee defense against being swamped by low-HP but numerous and erratic enemies like dog packs. This would give power attacks something to distinguish them beyond them being 'regular attacks that deal more damage' and could also allow for perks and weapons that improve on this aspect (allowing for more AoE damage, a wider swing arc, etc).

 

This is all personal preference, of course. I understand some people really like the precision aspect of it. I just happen not to, mostly because my aim sucks.