Perks System and Level Gates

[WolfyBlah]

i like the perk system in a17.

i prefer wellness separate from eating.

Level gates initially appear very annoying but after a few playthroughs, the games pace is SO MUCH BETTER. Maybe some tweaking is needed based on feedback, but overall its the right way forward.

i think you should be able to choose between maxing out or specializing. so why not make it an option in game setup..?

 

finally, levelling up a skill by doing said skill should be included but not exclusively or OP. i love the freedom of not having to stick to melee coz you started melee early. i hate having to overkill / cstchup ranged for a week coz ypu started ranged late in the game

 

Over 300 hours played since A9

 

Skills leveling by doing was a strictly better system than what we have now and the reasons for removing it were bull♥♥♥♥.

 

-people exploting thier armor skills up by jumping on cactus: easy fix, only damage from combat doing this (also balance it to give decent xp per time, the reason everyone exploited this was ♥♥♥♥ty balance decisions making exploting it the only way of actually leveling it up at a decent speed).

 

Are we going to go back to crafting giving XP at some point? I mean if 90% of the recipes in the game have tl be locked behind a grind wall then crafting should give experiance.

 

 

We need an XP multipler slider, iv seen what TFP want in terms of people leveling up stupidly slow (8 zombies to get to level 2 is about 6 zombies too many and it only gets exponentially worse from there). This simple option would mean TFP can have thier grindy as ♥♥♥♥ base game and those of is who dont want to play a grindfest we can do that.

[Benjiro]

Skills leveling by doing was a strictly better system than what we have now and the reasons for removing it were bull♥♥♥♥.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of things that get removed with 7D2D come down to mostly the TFPs looking for a reason to remove it. They simply had a game style in their heads and any excuse ended up being valid.

 

A lot of the issues that people mention as abuse, i never ran into. Maybe those issues are more annoying in the MP, but MP was never the reason why i buy the game. So why does my single player experience suffer because people figured out that rubbing on cactus increases armor. Fix the exploit, do not reinvent a entire new system that people will also find ways to misuse.

 

Even the Spam crafting ... I did spam crafting on night one, two at best, so my tools are level 100 and do not break after 2 hits. Solution: Increase crafting times and have tools start at level 75. Hell, even today we have people repairing tools in 2 seconds, how is that not a exploit ( and solved by increasing the spam crafting times ). Its again a MP issue more then a SP issue.

 

People find the MP in A17 a massive improvement. But in my opinion at the detriment of SP.

 

I even find the new pinata train a bigger exploit to fast level. Even with decreased XP and increased mining XP, you literally have the XP walking to you. All you do is watch your stamina, watch your weapon health ( preferably melee ) and its zombie grinding.

 

Gains from actually doing things felt like your character was your character, skills from hard work, your character was you, unique to your activities. Not a master of all trades, a natural progressive character. Now you simply spec into Warrior skills way too much, because you are simply at a disadvantage going builder early on. If you go builder, POIs become even harder. You have a hard time getting building related perks unlocked. Its a massive issue in some POIs especially when you get hit with Ferals. And yes, their are tricks around it with barbed wire and other tools but that is again a semi AI trickery, that even help out a Warrior specked character even more.

 

Every character that i have seen looks the same in A17. Even the poll results show that a lot less people "love" the new A17 then TFPs predicted. 33% ... that is not good. What is funny when Roland kept saying: "look how many people play the game, because a lot of people play, they all love the new system". Correlation does not imply causation

 

Is it playable. Sure. Are their good improvement. Yes. Is it the 7D2D that we spend money on. Not even close... It plays too much like Fallout 4, a game that i dumped so fast because it was so repetitive and dumbed down.

[Roland]

Even the poll results show that a lot less people "love" the new A17 then TFPs predicted. 33% ... that is not good. What is funny when Roland kept saying: "look how many people play the game, because a lot of people play, they all love the new system". Correlation does not imply causation.

 

Nice revisionist history there :/

 

The stats from the first poll were

 

25% negative

15% not sure

60% positive

 

I recanted my statement almost immediately and admitted that the high player numbers did not reflect players enjoying what they were playing. Those numbers only really show that there was great interest in trying out A17 to the point that it beat the previous A16 experimental record. I am still optimistic that the A17 stable numbers will beat the A16 stable numbers as well.

 

This weekend I will release a new poll that will ask the same questions as the first one to see whether sentiment has shifted during the experimental. What is interesting is that in this poll the number one clear detractor from A17 is the level gating and TFP have reversed themselves on that point and hopefully within the next few days you should all be able to play the game without the hated level gating we've had since A16 or at least less of of it than we had even in the A16 version that you all keep on a pedestal.

 

So I am optimistic the numbers are going to shift even more towards the positive end-- which I'm sure everyone can agree is a good thing and should be the end result of a company working through an experimental build process listening to its customers and doing what it can to improve.

[R0bb0b]

Nice revisionist history there :/

 

The stats from the first poll were

 

25% negative

15% not sure

60% positive

 

I recanted my statement almost immediately and admitted that the high player numbers did not reflect players enjoying what they were playing. Those numbers only really show that there was great interest in trying out A17 to the point that it beat the previous A16 experimental record. I am still optimistic that the A17 stable numbers will beat the A16 stable numbers as well.

 

This weekend I will release a new poll that will ask the same questions as the first one to see whether sentiment has shifted during the experimental. What is interesting is that in this poll the number one clear detractor from A17 is the level gating and TFP have reversed themselves on that point and hopefully within the next few days you should all be able to play the game without the hated level gating we've had since A16 or at least less of of it than we had even in the A16 version that you all keep on a pedestal.

 

So I am optimistic the numbers are going to shift even more towards the positive end-- which I'm sure everyone can agree is a good thing and should be the end result of a company working through an experimental build process listening to its customers and doing what it can to improve.

 

Listening to its customers would be a combination of the perk system of a16 and a17, but Madmole has already stated that the system of learning by doing, which consists of multiple experience pools that grow naturally around a player's style, is out the door. Also, while the adjustment that Madmole has done is a slight improvement, it doesn't change the unnatural feeling that I will get in game of everything being gated behind x number of zombie kills. Something happened between a16 and a17 where the system that the Pimps had been invested in for a long time, a system that was very unique to 7dtd, was then abandoned in favor of this new system that you can find in pretty much every other RPG on the market, and IMO, I think the numbers will show it.

[JCrook1028]

We need an XP multipler slider, iv seen what TFP want in terms of people leveling up stupidly slow (8 zombies to get to level 2 is about 6 zombies too many and it only gets exponentially worse from there). This simple option would mean TFP can have their grindy as ♥♥♥♥ base game and those of is who dont want to play a grindfest we can do that.

 

My God man just how easy do you want the game to be? Level 50 D3? As it is now you can get up into the 40's in the first week.

[Roland]

Listening to its customers would be a combination of the perk system of a16 and a17...

 

Pretty mixed result here. Yes more voted for the combo but it wasn't a clear win. Plenty of TFP's customers voted that they prefer the A17 system so they are listening to some customers.

[Slingblade2040]

Pretty mixed result here. Yes more voted for the combo but it wasn't a clear win. Plenty of TFP's customers voted that they prefer the A17 system so they are listening to some customers.

 

If more voted for it how does that not make it the winner? Usually that's how voting works..then again with how some folks get elected as presidents I could be wrong.

[Roland]

48% versus 32% is pretty mixed results. I'm not disputing that more people voted for a combo of A16 and A17 but there were plenty that also voted the other way. Compare that to the results of the level gate which was 48% vs 11% and that is much clearer statement.

 

<shrug>

 

Stats are open to interpretation of course.

[Almuric]

With all the new updates on these experimental builds, the game is just getting easier and easier. It's a pity that all the whiners have got their way. If these people wanted an easier game then they could have made use of the difficulty sliders built into the start menu. Maybe they should just go and play some Barbie games along with all the other little girls!

[LuckyStar]

48% versus 32% is pretty mixed results. I'm not disputing that more people voted for a combo of A16 and A17 but there were plenty that also voted the other way. Compare that to the results of the level gate which was 48% vs 11% and that is much clearer statement.

 

<shrug>

 

Stats are open to interpretation of course.

 

Yeah and 370 voters by no means represent the whole.

 

There are MANY players on Steam forums that never come here.

[DamienDarkside]

The perk system is great now, with real perks giving me real progress and gaining levels. I have to make real decisions in how I make my perk choices.

 

Levels gates should be either lowered or gone. I am okay with them being lowered. To be fully honest, I prefer everything the way it is, except allow us to make forges whenever we want and have iron as level 10 gear.

 

Level caps: None. I love how in Fallout 4 (for example) I still gain levels instead of capping out at 50. Once I am no longer gaining experience I stop playing since I consider that character "done".

 

WELLNESS: Food should be for survival, maybe giving small buffs to a well-fed character. Health should be based on stat changes rather than "Let my food run almost out and eat my way to 200 health".

[Gareee]

Since we have a new system without level gates, maybe this needs to be closed, and a new poll put up in a few weeks after we have time to learn the new system?

[ZombieSurvivor]

What if, at The start of The game you choose a class that your locked in. Lets say, "Skirmisher". By choosing this class all perks related to melee are cheap and perks related to other classes are a bit more expensive. So instead of Skirmisher a player might choose, "Weapon Nut" which makes all perks related to weapons cheaper and other perks related to other classes a bit more expensive. In this manner a player can buy all perks but the class they choose to specialize in Those specific perks can be obtained much faster.

[WolfyBlah]

Since we have a new system without level gates, maybe this needs to be closed, and a new poll put up in a few weeks after we have time to learn the new system?

 

Id say no, there are still level gates they are just slightly less obvious.

[Viktoriusiii]

Id say no, there are still level gates they are just slightly less obvious.

 

They are not level-gates! There is a big difference!

You can have lvl 10 int at lvl 27.

This is a way more open progression. Though I feel they should give more skillpoints per level or make every attribute cost 1 (2 at lvl 5<)

 

But that is a balance issue.

[Lt.Edux]

Translation by google

 

 

I like more the a16 system together with the recipes and parts

 

As you can see, this is my first post , despite having read without intervening in the forum for months, since April to be exact.

What I'm saying here has no other purpose than to send the developers a player's vision with approximately 2900 hours of play that is not much but I think it's not too little.

 

In previous alphas , the uncertainty of not knowing what I was going to find in each house or store made me want to plunder everything, trying to find what I needed or what I wanted to try to find, for example I remember a game, which was the day 125 and still had no recipe for the pistol (therefore could not repair or improve it) or minibike or auger, that made it an incentive to explore further and further away. It was a true adventure.

When he found some of those things he wanted, the joy was so great that he felt that the effort and persistence had been worth it.

 

The red moon nights in previous alphas was a preparation and desire to face them and see if the loot they left was worth or not worth it.

 

In A17 instead I feel like it's like an arcade like the old space invaders of the 80s (that reveals my age), just kill to go to the next level. kill 100 zombies and you can build the pistol, kill 200 and will have access to the minibike, puff ,to my way of seeing all this killed 2 of the 3 things that attracted me to the game.

 

In their favor, the only positive thing of a17 was the AI and vehicles, the rest the truth that is copy of other games, like for example the kitchen or open sideboards I saw it years ago in Miscreated

[Jeraal]

Translation by google

 

 

I like more the a16 system together with the recipes and parts

 

As you can see, this is my first post , despite having read without intervening in the forum for months, since April to be exact.

What I'm saying here has no other purpose than to send the developers a player's vision with approximately 2900 hours of play that is not much but I think it's not too little.

 

In previous alphas , the uncertainty of not knowing what I was going to find in each house or store made me want to plunder everything, trying to find what I needed or what I wanted to try to find, for example I remember a game, which was the day 125 and still had no recipe for the pistol (therefore could not repair or improve it) or minibike or auger, that made it an incentive to explore further and further away. It was a true adventure.

When he found some of those things he wanted, the joy was so great that he felt that the effort and persistence had been worth it.

 

The red moon nights in previous alphas was a preparation and desire to face them and see if the loot they left was worth or not worth it.

 

In A17 instead I feel like it's like an arcade like the old space invaders of the 80s (that reveals my age), just kill to go to the next level. kill 100 zombies and you can build the pistol, kill 200 and will have access to the minibike, puff ,to my way of seeing all this killed 2 of the 3 things that attracted me to the game.

 

In their favor, the only positive thing of a17 was the AI and vehicles, the rest the truth that is copy of other games, like for example the kitchen or open sideboards I saw it years ago in Miscreated

 

Couldn't have said it better. I remember several games where I didn't get the crossbow schematic(my favorite weapon) until 5th or 6th horde night.

[beHypE]

Yep, this exactly made games different from one another, and gave the thrill to go out there and loot all the POIs. Right now we have amazing dungeons but the incentive to clear them other than for gameplay value is actually pretty low, with most needed / interesting things being unlocked by perks.

[Tokim]

What I like in A17:

 

- the new graphic!

- the new vehicles

- the trader quest system

- the new poi's

- the weapon/tool modifications

 

what I don't like in a17:

 

- the leveling system!

-- kill zombies to get better in mining

-- kill zombies with a club and learn how to craft a rifle

-- kill zombie and be able to craft delicious food

-- and so on ...

- the removal of the 'you do it, you learn it' System (It was one of the key features for me in this game)

- the stamina usage for mining

-- you hit the stone 3 or 4 times and you stamina is gone. Wait a while to recover. The System in a16 was to easy with the imporved recovery, but the system in a17 is frustrating when you try to build your base

- no need to find the recipes for guns, tools and stuff

-- how should I learn to build a rife by killing a zombie with a club?

- the removal of weapon/vehicle parts

-- you have a crap motor and craft a bike and it has no consequences

-- you find a lvl 1 pistol it is the same as every other lvl 1 pistol. C'mon bring back more variation

- the extremly simplified itemlvl system

-- there are just the 6 lvl for every item

-- if you repair a tool it stays the same lvl. Why? If I repair something in RL it has not the same quality

-- the feeling of progress was removed. Yeah it is just about the numbers I know

- you see a house and you are lvl 15

-- you know you will find 1 or 2 feral and a bunch of 'normal' zombies

-- in every house you find. That's pure grinding and boring

- if you try to specialize in building you have to build up your waepon skills to be able to kill the 'feral/green' zombies. This results in nearly the same build for every game

- there is no efficiency reduction when a tool is nearly broken. An ax with a blunt cutting edge can't be as good as a new one!

 

What do I want to improve:

 

- Please bring back the 'you do it, you learn it' System! Surround it with some perks for lvl points and it will be great

- Improve the XP for non violent actions (mining/farming/building/crafting) to support SP players who want to build pretty bases

- reintroduce the 'parts' System for Bikes and Weapons.

- reintroduce the recipes. It is much more satisfying to find a recipe after 20 days then to have to kill 100 zombies to get it

- improve the possibility to reduce the stamina consumption for mining

 

Some words to me:

 

I came to 7D2D round about a year ago. The game was fascinating, it was frustrating and it was a lot of fun. The first tries I died a lot until I learned the basics and I began to love this game. For now I have 345h of gametime. I tried serveral types of build and became familar with the a16. Now with the a17 it feels like the most RPGs with some zombies. Is the goal to build a game like fallout76? If it is I will stay with the a16.4 starvation.

[Nighty]

To the above, having almost the same opinion except few things:

 

1. Tools with lower durability than half having less dmg, it was annoying not fun.

2. The part system was annoying too, collecting tons of parts, having entire chest and still being able to assemble like 1 or 2 guns only, the mods are many times better but there should be more and with alot of different effects to make extra playstyles of how to fight even if it makes not much sense (we already have a magic fire for any modable meele weapon so why not).

3. Lossing quality was annoying too, it just caused that mindset of "will only use that item for the boss" and ending up never or barely ever using it.

 

 

What is lacking is early game, moving end game into early made it just so having the weapons that desiring from first 1-2 weeks, that's possible to loot few hunting rifles, composite bows, shotguns and pistols on day one even with 25% loot, before it was gated by the fact that someone could be lucky and get a part but a part alone won't do anything, need knowledge how to assemble the thing (recipes!) and other parts so more scavenging and need to go outside or loot zombies, now since we don't have parts the recipes should still remain for the crafting part while finding random guns should be much much more uncommon, like, maybe a pistol per 50 toilets or something on averge. The alternative to scavenging would be trader then which should have much higher gun prices, like before when stuff was expensive, trader should not be a perfect alternative right after 1 week bcs quests give coins + we get stuff when doing quests + we get stuff from quests, before when playing insane 25% loot was starting to use guns only after few weaks, now top tier weapons are used the first horde night.

[WolfyBlah]

They are not level-gates! There is a big difference!

You can have lvl 10 int at lvl 27.

This is a way more open progression. Though I feel they should give more skillpoints per level or make every attribute cost 1 (2 at lvl 5<)

 

But that is a balance issue.

 

So any perk that requires 10 int is level gated to 28.

[beHypE]

So any perk that requires 10 int is level gated to 28.

 

And your point is..? You want lvl 5 perks available level 2 ? I mean YES stuff is level gated, it's the very definition of progression. It's the same in every RPG, there's stuff you can't equip because you don't have the requirements, and you need to get to a higher level before you do. Implicitely everything is level gated unless you have a game where 100% of the stuff is available on your first minute of gameplay. What's wrong with that, do you just want to be right for the sake of not losing an argument ?

 

What I see is that we come from a lvl 100 static level gate to a lvl 28 dynamic level gate, which means you have the choice to have it "soon" if you specialize into it, or you take the slower approach and spend some points elsewhere and unlock it maybe level 35, 40 ? Still better than 100, and it is dependent on what you choose to do, not only what level you are.

[omegarte]

I wish TFP would go back to 5 levels for the starter quest instead of the current 4, especially with more points needed for higher attribute levels. I need that extra point early game for stamina/health perks!

[WolfyBlah]

And your point is..? You want lvl 5 perks available level 2 ? I mean YES stuff is level gated, it's the very definition of progression. It's the same in every RPG, there's stuff you can't equip because you don't have the requirements, and you need to get to a higher level before you do. Implicitely everything is level gated unless you have a game where 100% of the stuff is available on your first minute of gameplay. What's wrong with that, do you just want to be right for the sake of not losing an argument ?

 

What I see is that we come from a lvl 100 static level gate to a lvl 28 dynamic level gate, which means you have the choice to have it "soon" if you specialize into it, or you take the slower approach and spend some points elsewhere and unlock it maybe level 35, 40 ? Still better than 100, and it is dependent on what you choose to do, not only what level you are.

 

So... what you are saying is that there are still level gates?

[Eyegore]

In previous alphas a dedicated team of players could unlock concrete and even steel on day 1. Just as a reference for how good those designs were.

 

I unlocked concrete in one day too. I just went to home depot and bought a few bags, mixed it up in a 5 gallon bucket, and used it to build a wall. I had no experience, and it was actually pretty easy. Turns out it wasn't really locked to begin with, in real life. Why is this locked again? Now apply that 'woke' reasoning to everything in this game. Examples: Why do we build bicycles instead of looting them from garages and stores? Why do we build mini-bikes and now cars(!?)...at least we don't have to build guns anymore. Wow, that was dumb.