Perks System and Level Gates

[Moldy Bread]

Can you not combine an enhanced option two with option ten?

[Jamey]

In contrast to my strong negative reaction to the death penalty, I have to say that I think that the A17 system is better than A16.

 

My suggestions:

 

1) Look at XP for things besides killing zombies and selling to traders. It seems like harvesting, crafting, and building should be more productive than now for building up your character.

 

2) I’d like either lower level gates or no level gate.

 

3) I’d like no level cap because I’d like to be able to get whatever I want when playing single player.

[Tick Turd]

Leveling, in general, should slowly increase your health, stamina, and strength. These should not be “perks.” This is true for most games.

 

I’m ok with spending points in skill trees to build your character as you see fit. But I also don’t like level gates that don’t make any sense.

 

Example: I can’t make a forge until level 20. But if I find one on day 1 I suddenly know how to use one? Or the fact that I can craft a forge well before I can figure out how to craft an advanced bandage?

 

I think TFP are missing out on a golden opportunity with quests. If you simply took the old schematics like “forge ahead” or the crossbow BP and put them as quest rewards, it would make the game much more interesting. Perks should be for skill enhancement, not acquisition in my honest opinion.

 

So if I did the Forge quest on day 2 to learn how to craft it, and wanted to then use skill points to increase my efficiency/output, that would make much more sense relative to progression and game design.

[meganoth]

I’m ok with spending points in skill trees to build your character as you see fit. But I also don’t like level gates that don’t make any sense.

 

Example: I can’t make a forge until level 20. But if I find one on day 1 I suddenly know how to use one?

 

I can use a car even though I can't build one.

 

Or the fact that I can craft a forge well before I can figure out how to craft an advanced bandage?

 

Well, how do you make an advanced bandage? A bandage that actively heals you instead of just stopping the blood flow? It probably took generations of shamans or quacksalvers to find the right herbs that actually improve healing.

 

I have not the slightest idea how I would approach that in reality.

 

I think TFP are missing out on a golden opportunity with quests. If you simply took the old schematics like “forge ahead” or the crossbow BP and put them as quest rewards, it would make the game much more interesting. Perks should be for skill enhancement, not acquisition in my honest opinion.

 

So if I did the Forge quest on day 2 to learn how to craft it, and wanted to then use skill points to increase my efficiency/output, that would make much more sense relative to progression and game design.

 

Partly agree. Having more than one way to aquire the stuff in game would be fantastic. The quest shouldn't be automatically available though, otherwise EVERYONE would do this on day 2 and never use any of the other methods. Notice you can normally find working forges very early if you look into the right places, so the perk is there for those with bad luck.

[KhaineGB]

I would prefer a hybrid of A16 and A17 to be totally honest, because that's honestly what I thought we were getting when MM talked about attributes in a VERY early A17 video (back when he showed off the new doe/stag models, the new ragdoll physics and driving around one of the sedan cars)

 

I might be mis-remembering, but I'm sure he said they decided that learning-by-doing wasn't fun because it just meant you had to grind. As such, I do have a suggestion. It should be possible to impliment, I just don't know how difficult it would be to do so.

 

Put back the 1-100 skills you can learn by doing (maybe skip some of the buggy ones, like athletics that could level from standing still). On level up, grant the player PERK points (which are used to buy attributes and perks) and SKILL points (which are ONLY used for those 1-100 skills).

 

That way you get a balance between "learn by doing" and you have points you can straight up spend if you want to power level through a particular skill. Those points also won't impact your perk choices, which I believe was a common complaint in A16... you either spent points on skills or points on perks.

[Benjiro]

I might be mis-remembering, but I'm sure he said they decided that learning-by-doing wasn't fun because it just meant you had to grind.

 

Grinding Zombies is the same grind. It quickly becomes no fun to go run after every zombie because its the best and fasted way to get XP. It really breaks the feeling of the game where you are scared and surviving the apocalypse. Now people are running to Zombie like headless chicken yelling "XP, XP, come here XP!".

[Ghostlight]

I really cant understand anyone liking the new Food/Stamina mechanic. It means all foods are the same, they give max Stamina and some HP and that's it. That's Subnautica levels of bland when it comes to a food mechanic. The days of going out of your way to get the ingredients for Meat Stew because it raised Wellness more than any other equivalent food are gone. It doesn't matter what you eat now, and Meat Stew is utterly useless (since you'd never let your max Stamina fall so low as to make it worth while actually eating it). There is zero point putting any points in MasterChef beyond the first. BY the time you can cook the boosting drugs, your character is maxed out anyway.

[KhaineGB]

Grinding Zombies is the same grind. It quickly becomes no fun to go run after every zombie because its the best and fasted way to get XP. It really breaks the feeling of the game where you are scared and surviving the apocalypse. Now people are running to Zombie like headless chicken yelling "XP, XP, come here XP!".

 

Oh I completely agree with you.

 

That's what I liked about A16, because building and crafting was also a viable way to level. It feels like that's not the case in A17.

[RestInPieces]

They will balance xp sources so that zombies stop feeling like xp pinatas.

[Anarath]

@Roland

 

I propose to make this a sticky post (for a limited time) to attract more attention. Would be a shame if people wouldn't vote cause the thread ends up on page 5.

[Saera]

I don't mind how wellness is advanced by spending points in Fortitude and Agility, makes sense..but I don't like how you require certain points and levels in those to acquire other skills. Should be separate imo.

[Lord_Clown1]

Well, it seems that the poll wants to remove level gates, which will make what you're saying true. Not being forced to pick certain skills cause you're capped.

 

Regardless, you'll still need to spend 9 skill points in str before gettin to the juicy stuff, spending 5 more skill points in the smashing.

But if people do that with INT to unlock higher things, well, maybe the vehicle levels need tweaking. Maybe make it cost more skillpoints to reach level 10 int.

Not sure about certain small things

 

But regardless, if you go full int, your game stage will still go up a lot, and you won't be able to defend yourself that well. So i really like the concept where i'm not forced to play a certain way, that i am forced to do now.

 

I like high risk/high reward, so maxing out str and runnin in with a sledge to instasmash some zombies in a POI sounds pretty fun, as if i miss on survival, it's likely to lead to my death, but that makes it fun imo.

 

Sorry, just odd ranting.

 

Cheers

[WolfyBlah]

Well, it seems that the poll wants to remove level gates, which will make what you're saying true. Not being forced to pick certain skills cause you're capped.

 

Regardless, you'll still need to spend 9 skill points in str before gettin to the juicy stuff, spending 5 more skill points in the smashing.

But if people do that with INT to unlock higher things, well, maybe the vehicle levels need tweaking. Maybe make it cost more skillpoints to reach level 10 int.

Not sure about certain small things

 

But regardless, if you go full int, your game stage will still go up a lot, and you won't be able to defend yourself that well. So i really like the concept where i'm not forced to play a certain way, that i am forced to do now.

 

I like high risk/high reward, so maxing out str and runnin in with a sledge to instasmash some zombies in a POI sounds pretty fun, as if i miss on survival, it's likely to lead to my death, but that makes it fun imo.

 

Sorry, just odd ranting.

 

Cheers

 

Making the crafting recipes (intelligence) take more points that combat related perks is a terrible idea and just punishes those more intresed to crafting than combat for no reason, allow someone to choose to be weak in combat but able to craft advanved recipes is a much more intresting choice for the player to make.

 

There is no reason game stage needs to advance any more rapidly for people who want to craft than those who want to loot, explore or fight.

[Lord_Clown1]

I didn't mean it that way.

 

The "There is no reason to make it advance faster" IT advances just the same, it's just that you choose to be weak in str and per, to focus on building

So fighting will be harder for you. That was kinda the point.

Level+ = Gamestage+ still applies equally in my utopia. ^_^.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Just one quick idea.

When you remove the level caps, you could probably change the vehicle stuff to being stuff you find as schematics, or that you have to spend extra skillpoints in achieving it, cause it feels like more mid-end game stuff. Maybe costing 3 sp instead of one, but also being findable as a schematic in certain spots.

 

Just an idea, at least when it comes to vehicles, while the rest may remain the same. Wouldn't be too broken then.

 

<3

 

About having a16 and a17 system combined seems like it'd be amazing, at least with the skill mining tools without nerfing mining or anything. That way at absolute max everything and mods, a power attack with a stee lpickaxe would do around 700 damage, which i think is pretty cool. That's ofcourse 190 damage more than in a16 ish. But still, that'd be really nice, and you won't spend the 1 skillpoint you get per level on a 1-100 mining tools, so it's fair if you mine that much you do that much damage. It's perfectly balanced then, cause it'd take you several hours upon hours.

[WolfyBlah]

My issue is that there is currently a massive divde between when a player who loves looting and one that loves crafing unlock the same item, you can find advanced tools on day 1 but to craft them takes hours upon hours of leveling up, if those advanved items unlocked at the same time for both playstyles it would be a diffrent matter (ie make things not appear in loot/trader until they are craftable)

 

As it stands now crafting things is heavily locked behind grinding exp (and the increased gamestage) but looting them can be done at any time

 

Making everything cost 1 point and granting 1 per level is much fairer than 'naw you have to level up more for this than anything else just because'

[Anarath]

Pushing this on page 1 again. Don't hate me for it, the poll needs more attention.

[Krougal]

I'm very surprised to see so many people voting for "I prefer a high enough cap on levels so that you can max out your character."

Specializing into something just sound so much more appealing to me.

 

When I start a game with my friends, one of us decides to go all tanky to be in the front, another goes for ranged and maybe some stealth etc. Someone might go melee headshot style with some sneak combo.

 

The whole idea behind specialize and making a decision for your game makes it interesting

I don't even know how to make a good argument for this, because I'm actually saying I want to be diminished in my game. But maybe this comes down to modding in the end.

 

Not being able to be the best at everything, is something we appreciate on my server. For sure.

 

Because SP specialization is really not a viable or fun option, and it's not like you don't have to grind out 276 or so out of 300 levels to max all skills. I don't know how long that would take, but being as XP reqs scale up much more than the XP from end-game zombies I doubt anybody is getting 5 levels a day at level 200.

[Corbit]

The current perk system has zero depth and does not enhance gameplay at all, it removes it. Games used to be about learning how to play and getting better at playing the game, that was rewarding. Now its *ding* spend a point and you magically got better. I have not once felt like I had achieved something in a17, there is no real challenge.

 

Why are there perks that make it so you need to eat and drink less? Its tells me that the eating and drinking part of the game is tedious so there is a perk to make it less tedious. Why not have a cooking skill with recipes that keep you full for longer, with a higher skill you make better food, quicker, with longer buffs. Expand and add depth to the systems instead of a boring perk which does it all for you and you didn't even need to perform the actions related to it to get it.

 

Someone said the new perk system is better for specialisation, I could not disagree more. Specialisation means you pick a specific profession and focus on that, you aren't gonna be doing that with this perk system, you're gonna spread points all over. Want to be a Miner? You need points in Strength and you're gonna want Agility for stamina. Want some better tools for mining? Gonna need Intellect as well. Not so specialised anymore.

 

I see a lot of people mention the old system and having to make 1000000 stone axes to level toolsmithing, was there any attempt to balance that? Why did stone axes give you gains past a certain point? Was repairing tools ever a big deal? No, it was far too easy to make a new one and more beneficial as stats dropped by repairing. It was too easy to make steel tools. Steel should take longer to make and require coal. If you had the time to sit there and just make tools for hours, you are not feeling any sense of urgency to be ready for the next bloodmoon and the game is clearly not challenging you enough.

 

Finding that forge book was fun, finding a forge in a house was even better! Maybe I could have learnt how to make a forge by finding and studying a working one. Same goes for the others. How about a blacksmith zombie that has a high chance to drop the book, maybe even the materials for one? How about a scientist zombie for the chem station? There is already a construction zombie, he can drop the workbench plans! People who like killing zombies can farm them for plans, people who like looting can search stores and specific areas related to what you're looking for.

 

As for wellness, the old system was great. Dying meant losing something you had to regain, I was scared to die when my wellness was nearing 200, felt great. Getting your wellness high gave you a sense of achievement, you had played well to do so, but also meant you had to keep playing well to keep it there. So much potential to link wellness into a cooking skill with lots of new recipes, ingredients and buffs. I like that performing actions affects your max wellness but eating shouldn't be the only way to regain it. It should passively increase when not doing anything, very slowly. Maybe a campfire could increase the rate. Can be linked with medical skill for more possibilities. How about an entertainer skill that increases it...oh wait thats Star Wars Galaxies

 

This game does not need perks and xp bars to be great. I remember it being fun before they were added. Now everything revolves around them and I feel it has sucked the life out of the game.

[Sellsents]

Couldn´t agree more Corbit

[Kage848]

I think the old alpha 16 skill/perk system was really good. Makes way more sense to learn by doing. But I really love the new perk system too.

 

I'm going to say I think the alpha 17 perk system is better. But ill be honest, it might be just because its new. A breath of fresh air over an old tired skill system I was using for years.

 

I think we should 100% be able to get all perks, like we can now. That shouldn't change. Limiting perks is a simple slap in the face to the sp gamer. Let's face it, this is already the update that made mp better than sp, let's not go too far with that. #singleplayergamersmatter

 

I'm ok with level gates. Its eather rng or levels guys. At least with levels I dont get screwed out of stuff because of rng. I work for it, I get it.

 

As for rng. Nothing burns me up more than days and days of hard work searching for an item and not getting it. My time is valuable and i dont appreciate it being wasted.

 

But people need a reason to go out and loot. So how do we give then that?

[Corbit]

I think the old alpha 16 skill/perk system was really good. Makes way more sense to learn by doing. But I really love the new perk system too.

 

I'm going to say I think the alpha 17 perk system is better. But ill be honest, it might be just because its new. A breath of fresh air over an old tired skill system I was using for years.

 

I think we should 100% be able to get all perks, like we can now. That shouldn't change. Limiting perks is a simple slap in the face to the sp gamer. Let's face it, this is already the update that made mp better than sp, let's not go too far with that. #singleplayergamersmatter

 

I'm ok with level gates. Its eather rng or levels guys. At least with levels I dont get screwed out of stuff because of rng. I work for it, I get it.

 

As for rng. Nothing burns me up more than days and days of hard work searching for an item and not getting it. My time is valuable and i dont appreciate it being wasted.

 

But people need a reason to go out and loot. So how do we give then that?

 

The reason RNG was a pain before was because there were limited options to find the things you want, why not just add more options for finding them? Once they added working forges in houses there wasn't a massive issue if you couldn't find the book. That could easily have been expanded upon making the world more interesting at the same time, how about a blacksmith shop POI?, a laboratory POI? Give the player a challenge. Its never going to be a challenge to unlock a perk.

[Viktoriusiii]

I think the old alpha 16 skill/perk system was really good. Makes way more sense to learn by doing. But I really love the new perk system too.

 

Why not A16 with perks? I mean we already had that system... only that it wasn't fleshed out at all!

[Kage848]

The reason RNG was a pain before was because there were limited options to find the things you want, why not just add more options for finding them? Once they added working forges in houses there wasn't a massive issue if you couldn't find the book. That could easily have been expanded upon making the world more interesting at the same time, how about a blacksmith shop POI?, a laboratory POI? Give the player a challenge. Its never going to be a challenge to unlock a perk.

 

Not a terrible idea. 2 issues.

 

That was alpha 16. I played alpha 16, for 16 months. I want totally new stuff.

 

Also the hardcore will still complain. If it doesn't take them a hundred hours to get something then it's too easy.

 

And lastly one thing i cant say about alpha 17 is it needs more challenge. Its plenty challaging. Dont bother telling me it's not, this is my subjective opinion lol.

[Kage848]

Why not A16 with perks? I mean we already had that system... only that it wasn't fleshed out at all!

 

Maybe. But like I said before I am really liking the totally new system. Maybe it will get old but for now I'm addicted to it. Might have something to do with my MMO background. Ill grind all day for those sweet perks. Just asking some new perks to the already old system doesn't sound as fun.

[Savage11]

I enjoyed the systems of A16. I liked learning by doing. I also like the wellness system. It felt like you accomplished something and could be done without bashing zombies over and over just to get your next point.

 

As for the new systems, I played a few games default and now I am playing one with no level caps. Its a lot more enjoyable now. Yes, I can get the forge quickly but there is a cost to doing that. I won't have the points to improve stamina or the other mining skills. It also adds to the specialization aspect of it, one person can be a fighter and someone else can be a scientist.