Perks System and Level Gates

[Roland]

Here is a poll to express your feelings regarding character progression. You can vote for multiple entrees.

 

The first three entries are for the perk system.

 

In A17 the system is 100% points based. All progress is purchased via points earned from leveling up. In A16 in addition to perks that could be bought with points there were also skills that auto-advanced without the player having to spend anything (although they could if they wanted). If the player engaged in the activity related to the skill they would advance and grow stronger in that skill.

 

The next two entries are for how wellness advances now vs before.

 

For the purpose of this poll wellness is being defined as the player's maximum health and stamina up to a possible full wellness of 200 each. In A17 health and stamina increase by spending points in Fortitude and Agility. In A16 health and stamina increase by eating food and vitamins.

 

The next three entries are for level gates.

 

Are the level gates currently just right in how they pace advancement or should they be lightened up or removed altogether?

 

The last two are for level caps.

 

Should players be able to max out their characters during one playthrough or should they specialize each time?

 

 

 

As always, feel free to discuss and debate but keep things civil.

[Roland]

I like the new perk system over A16.

I'm glad max health and stamina are separated from eating food.

I would like level gates removed.

I would like too few points to buy everything

[Kubikus]

I would like too few points to buy everything

That would make sense if you could build characters that are a) equally efficient but b) very different from one another. Like you can in Skyrim. There, you can be an elemental mage who is practically too weak to even hold a sword, or a strong brute who swings the two-handed warhammer, yet lacks the intellectual capacities to learn a single spell. In 7dtd, you might make a decision between what kind of melee or what kind of firearm you want to use. The difference would mean just a few perk points.

 

That is one reason why I like the skill system of A16 over the perks. They don't improve anything for me. And the "freedom" that it was advertised with once (haven't seen that argument in quite a while, since the release) is non-existant because of the level gates. It has become, actually, the exact opposite of freedom.

 

 

Edit: The poll, btw, is missing my prefered constellation, which is learning by doing for most stuff, but also learning through books and quests. Just not perks, those magical points, that appear out of thin air.

[Zourin]

The system in A17 is fine. The perks are almost perfectly tuned (except for the weapon specific ranged weapon upgrades), with no wasted points anywhere. It does away with almost all of the RNG-ness of previous alphas' RNG-riddled problems, except for beaker drop rates, and allows you to define your character as you go.

 

 

The biggest problem is the obvious 20-level gap that's out of place with the subsequent 10 level progression gates. It's a very obvious and grindy delay in progression where players WANT to advance past the stone age, but are forced to attack zombies purely to advance the game, rather than seeking supplies or 'poi rewards'.

 

A more minor problem is ranged weapon balance. A16 and earlier had tuned a lot of weapons by giving them special effects like the slowdown effects of the shotgun and blunderbuss (particularly the blunderbuss, which actually was a good bear gun), the Bleed chance on bows, and high headshot multipliers of the pistol and long rifles. Without these status effects and headshot multipliers, these guns are severely under par, and the perks don't help them at all, except maybe the shotgun perk, but that comes too late to save the blunderbuss (RIP boomstick)

 

Too few points to buy everything is fine, but keep in mind, Single Players need substantially more diversity in order to play the game, due to an absolute necessity to make heavy and diverse investments in many of the perk trees, particularly INT (tech), STR (resourcing), and FORT (you like to live, don't you?). It's best if this is balanced around SP, which only offers Multi-player characters more opportunities to specialize outside of core tech perks. This is ESPECIALLY true in a system where you can't respec points. Conan Exiles doesn't give a SP player enough points to go around, but they can respec at will to cover those gaps (You can basically hot-swap your character builds as though you were a multiple characters). Different game, sure, but similar consideration when using a Point-by-level system.

[Kubikus]

The system in A17 is fine. The perks are almost perfectly tuned (except for the weapon specific ranged weapon upgrades), with no wasted points anywhere. It does away with almost all of the RNG-ness of previous alphas' RNG-riddled problems, except for beaker drop rates, and allows you to define your character as you go.

And the removal of RNG is one of the issues people who dislike the perk system have. They (we) don't want RNG to be removed.

 

And the overall "spirit" of the game now is, that if you want something you: Gotta go kill zombies. Want to unlock the minibike? Kill zombies. Wanna learn how to grill meat? Kill zombies. Wana increase your health? Kill zombies. Wanna kill zombies more effectively? Kill zombies. Well, that last example does "even" make sense.

 

A16 was diversified. Wanna unlock the minibike? Find the book. Wanna increase your health? Eat well. Wanna improve a skill? Do the corresponding activity. And some thing also were perks (which I found bad too, though).

[calebelt]

I like the new perk system.

But if I kill zombies, then my a skill digging cannot be buy for these points. And vice versa. If I'm digging, I can't buy headshots or possession of a rifle.

Now a very strange system. I dig, cut trees, build... And suddenly a professional in shooting, but newby in the dig, cutting and construction.

[Kubikus]

I like the new perk system.

But if I kill zombies, then my a skill digging cannot be buy for these points. And vice versa. If I'm digging, I can't buy headshots or possession of a rifle.

Now a very strange system. I dig, cut trees, build... And suddenly a professional in shooting, but newby in the dig, cutting and construction.

Here is another funny thing about it: In the early game, you kill, say, 100 zombies and buy (say) 10 perks. In the later game, you kill 1000 zombies and buy 5 perks. I understand the concept of exponential progression, but it kinda feels weird. In A16, you could increase a skill in the same speed no matter how many days you played. And the individual skill progressed exponentially. I find that much better.

[OzHawkeye]

I guess I've answered for an idealised perfect world - a system this is completely learn by doing.

 

Whether or not it could ever be made to work well in the 7dtd game, I don't know, but to me, I should increase Archery, by, well, you know, shootin' arrows 'n stuffs.

 

Edit: On other points:

 

I don't believe level gates work well.

Playing SP, I will always mod to ensure I can (eventually) get every skill.

[Aldranon]

If you guys think about it, selling bicycles for 60,000 Dukes cover all character developments!

 

-Your a cut-throat businessman = melee weapon experience.

-You also are a shady businessman = stealth experience.

-You have some strength of character to ask for so much money = Yes... strength.

-You were able to count 60,000 dukes instantly = Massive intelligence and agility experience.

 

I would say selling bikes should be the only way to develop a character.

[Zourin]

And the removal of RNG is one of the issues people who dislike the perk system have. They (we) don't want RNG to be removed.

 

And the overall "spirit" of the game now is, that if you want something you: Gotta go kill zombies. Want to unlock the minibike? Kill zombies. Wanna learn how to grill meat? Kill zombies. Wana increase your health? Kill zombies. Wanna kill zombies more effectively? Kill zombies. Well, that last example does "even" make sense.

 

A16 was diversified. Wanna unlock the minibike? Find the book. Wanna increase your health? Eat well. Wanna improve a skill? Do the corresponding activity. And some thing also were perks (which I found bad too, though).

 

Madmole posted a little while ago that he's not quite on board with how xp is so disproportionately kill-based, and wants to push 30% of those xp gains off on crafting/harvesting to level things out.

 

One of the worst things in A16 was the RNG, unless you were playing the training-wheels map. you were completely at the whim of a random number generator for everything from gas to wrenches, beakers, armor, everything. There were games where I'd literally go 50 days without seeing a power tool, beaker, or gas BP, much less the older days of "Riddle of Steel". Those were good plays, but it certainly wasn't because of RNG. RNG exists to hold you back while pretending not to. it's a PITA when RNG decides to be coy with core gameplay progression. I don't care if I don't find a Q6 rifle, but Minibikes for Dummies is worthless if I can't make gas.

[Scyris]

I kinda prefer the A16 skill system, you wanted to be good with pistols? you had to use them, to level the base skill for a entity damagwe bonus, and to unlock levels of the gun specific perks. Same for mining, you needed to use it to be able to upgrade the related perks. I also agree with madmole, there needs to be more exp given for looting/harvesting resources in the world, as it is now, the only real way to get exp is to run around ganking zombies.

 

As someone mentioned you need to really balance it around single player and not multiplayer. In SP you'd need: all the crafting perks, at least 1 gun/1 bow/1 melee tree, a armor tree, pretty much most of the stuff in fortitude, in str you need pack mule and the mining related perks. IMO the lv/stat req for pack mule need to go away, as its annoying as hell being constantly slowed, I mean I see no point to the inventory being made bigger if your going to also slap us in the face for using it. Honestly the encumbrance system for inventory is one of my most hated things in a17. That and the movemenet/stam reduction on armor. The armor stuff sort of makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is why gloves/boots/helm have the exact same debuff as a much heavier chest/leg armor. I actually go armorless for the most part till much higher levels as the movement speed debuff just makes everything feel like I am moving thru a swamp, and the encumbrance system for inventory doesn't help that issue either.

[calebelt]

In version 16...

As it was driving through the night winter forest. It got very cold. I stopped and built a fire to keep warm. Suddenly two woodcutters ran out of the forest. I started shooting them with my revolver. Accidentally one bullet hit the mini-bike and the engine was damaged to zero.

I had to find a cabin and kill zombies in it. Already almost freezing and not having health, made a fire and warmed burning furniture.

Zombies roamed around the hut. And I had to make a barricade at the door. When dawn came and the zombies stopped running, it got warmer. I disassembled the mini-bike and walked to the base.

That was amazing!

 

That's not gonna happen now. I can take perks for temperature and walk naked in the winter forest. If zombies run at me, I'll just stand behind a tree or a stone. Now any zombie can be killed with a wooden club without any problems. That's not gonna happen now. If my mini-bike breaks, I just put it in my pocket (ha ha).

[Guerthal]

I want the level cap to be a fixed or dynamic option on game creation/in the xml. Either give us a field where we can input the desired level cap or offer us some options like lvl 150-200-250-300. Problem solved.

[secateurs]

I like the new perk system over A16.

I'm glad max health and stamina are separated from eating food.

I would like level gates removed.

I would like too few points to buy everything

 

 

ditto.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

I definitely prefer the new systems to A16, for the following reasons:

 

Perk System

It promotes specialisation. I've actually seen a lot of people argue the opposite - that the A17 system removes specialisation - but I disagree. With the "learn by doing" system, you're always going to be doing some building and doing some scavenging and killing some zombies; so you're always going to start out terrible at all those things and then get better at each of them. There's no choice in character direction. You might want one character to be a great builder and another character to be an expert fighter, but if they're both building the same base and killing the same zombies then that's not going to happen. Instead they're both just going to advance in both skills at the same rate.

 

Whereas in the new system you can actually decide. Instead of being automatically awarded improvements in a particular skill for having used it, you get to decide what you will be good at. Two characters can build the same base and kill the same zombies but you can decide to spend the perks for one of them to make building easier and to spend the perks for the other one to make fighting easier. And unlike the learn-by-doing A16 characters, these A17 characters will both give significantly different play experiences.

 

Wellness

I don't have particularly strong opinions one way or the other about this. I do think that people gamed the system to a large extent with Wellness being food related. There was lots of talk of deliberately using pills in order to get thirsty so that you could then drink more tea to increase your Wellness; and discussing which foods gave you the least satiation per wellness increase so that you could avoid getting too full to eat more Wellness-improving food. While this isn't something I would do, other people doing it doesn't affect my game, so it doesn't bother me - but it's something that the devs probably took into account when changing the system.

 

Level Gating

I am one of those players who perfers the early game to the later game. This isn't something unique to this game, but is common to many games. I'm the sort of person who, when playing Diablo II, would play a character through the story and then when they'd killed Diablo (or Baal in the expansion!) I'd start again with a new character. For me, the fun is in the journey. But I know that many players are the opposite. In something like Diablo II they find their fun in being maximum level and doing endles "boss runs" for the best equipment. To them, the actual journey to get to maximum level is a necessary evil (a "grind") before they get to the good part of the game.

 

I see a lot of this in the discussions about the new perk system. Many players want to unlock the best building materials and get the best loot by maximising their scavenging and trading as soon as possible. For them, the fun of the game only starts once they've got concrete and steel and traps and electricity and guns and grinding to get there is a neccesary evil - indeed, we see lots of "please expand the endgame" pleas alongside the "please don't slow down getting to the endgame" complaints.

 

I'm the opposite. Once I've got electricity and steel and can build traps I see the game as basically being over, and I will prefer to quit at that point and start a new character.

 

So for me, the fact that the A17 perk system stretches out the journey is an unqualified good thing; but I can see (and hear!) how it is frustrating for people who want to rush to the endgame as quickly as possible.

 

Level Caps

I have a mild preference for a level cap that's low enough that you can't get every perk, because that does mean that when you're selecting what to specialise in you have the awareness that you're locking yourself out of other skills which makes the decision more meaningful; but since I'm never likely to ever reach the level cap anyway the distinction is largely unimportant from my point of view.

[Gazz]

I see a lot of this in the discussions about the new perk system. Many players want to unlock the best building materials and get the best loot by maximising their scavenging and trading as soon as possible. For them, the fun of the game only starts once they've got concrete and steel and traps and electricity and guns and grinding to get there is a neccesary evil - indeed, we see lots of "please expand the endgame" pleas alongside the "please don't slow down getting to the endgame" complaints.

In previous alphas a dedicated team of players could unlock concrete and even steel on day 1. Just as a reference for how good those designs were.

If the game includes learning-by-grinding then there will be players who vastly out-grind any "reasonable" progression.

 

A point-purchase system will get called everything from cheap to lazy to godknowswhat but umm... it works.

You get to choose which perk you want and which you will forgo. You can't simply be master of macroing everything.

[Moldy Bread]

A16 had the superior leveling system. I cannot see why that could not be brought over and enhanced. (along with gun parts...)

[InSanity]

I like the new perk system over A16.

I'm glad max health and stamina are separated from eating food.

I would like level gates removed.

I would like too few points to buy everything

 

I agree with all of that except for the perk system, because while I do enjoy the perk system currently I think from a gameplay standpoint and my own personal preference that learning by doing things in addition to levels would be a lot more balanced and enjoyable.

[RestInPieces]

This poll doesn't cut it for me because:

 

-I prefer a system with perks + skills but one not easily abused, with diminishing returns. This system is fine too though, as long as xp sources are equalized (I believe that it's important), so that players don't gravitate towards one way of leveling or encouraged to abuse it with corn fields etc.

 

-I don't particularly care how wellness is raised, I just want a real death consequence. The old system was absolutely terrible in that regard. It could have been salvaged but it needed to be fundamentally changed.

 

-I don't particularly care how gating in general happens, as long as progression is "slow". With the A16 progression rate any amount of "end-game" content will never be enough. The current system could use a more intuitive way of gating, so that the players don't feel they are meeting walls.

 

-I don't particularly care, but I'd prefer if you could max everything because of SP, but with an incremental soft cap after a point, so that it's very hard to do so.

[InSanity]

I guess I've answered for an idealised perfect world - a system this is completely learn by doing.

 

Whether or not it could ever be made to work well in the 7dtd game, I don't know, but to me, I should increase Archery, by, well, you know, shootin' arrows 'n stuffs.

 

Edit: On other points:

 

I don't believe level gates work well.

Playing SP, I will always mod to ensure I can (eventually) get every skill.

 

I think a partial system of progression through doing would work very well in 7dtd, although some points would still need to be obtainable to supplement that due to rng, different playstyles, and so on and so forth.

[Kubikus]

In previous alphas a dedicated team of players could unlock concrete and even steel on day 1. Just as a reference for how good those designs were.

If the game includes learning-by-grinding then there will be players who vastly out-grind any "reasonable" progression.

 

A point-purchase system will get called everything from cheap to lazy to godknowswhat but umm... it works.

You get to choose which perk you want and which you will forgo. You can't simply be master of macroing everything.

So far, I had no problem grinding in A17, and the only system that might prevent grinders from having a certain something "too" early is the level gates. You could as well gate recipes and abilities purely by the number of days played.

 

For those who don't grind, a mechanic that is designed to counter grinding players is a bit frustrating.

[SnowDog1942]

I like the new perk system over A16.

I'm glad max health and stamina are separated from eating food.

I would like level gates removed.

I would like too few points to buy everything

 

I like the idea of level gates being removed but imagine havng the final level of the health regen perk in very early game, you would be unkillable. Just one example of many.

[Rockspider]

In previous alphas a dedicated team of players could unlock concrete and even steel on day 1. Just as a reference for how good those designs were.

If the game includes learning-by-grinding then there will be players who vastly out-grind any "reasonable" progression.

 

A point-purchase system will get called everything from cheap to lazy to godknowswhat but umm... it works.

You get to choose which perk you want and which you will forgo. You can't simply be master of macroing everything.

 

Why was a16 not balanced then? why no patches for the ai?

 

a16 is still a fun game to many players including myself. Yes there were problems with it but they have never been nor will be addressed.

 

As for a17 will it be released then ignored till a18? and maybe a whole new way of playing?

[Sergoros]

Liked A16 learn by doing more. Liked A16 wellness system. Dont really care that much for level gates or level cap. But, if current system to remain, imho, level gate on intellect is unnecessary. Imho, it should be a luxury stat, that you can waste your points on as much as you want, but if you do, your character would be super crap in everything else for a while. Aka smarty guy from walking dead.

[RestInPieces]

As for a17 will it be released then ignored till a18? and maybe a whole new way of playing?

 

I think they should have appreciated the value of modular patches by now.