Perks System and Level Gates

[Dunkurtin]

Nobody really ever used iron tools, no reason to. Jesus I hated spamming crafting to advance crafting skills to get the things I needed for when I gelt like farming zombies -

 

Because there was 0 risk in A16. You'd spend a couple days of mind numbing boredom in a cave spamming crafts and mining, then you'd go kite zombies at book stores (again, 0 risk if you're not completely dense) and see if RNG gave you the books you needed. That always felt arbitrary and divorced from any skill or decisions I made.

 

Then you'd slam out top tier steel gear and if you felt like it make a zombie killing trap of a base where you'd eat popcorn and watch zombies die for 15 minutes. It was Minecraft Creative mode with a graphics overhaul but even less threatening enemies.

 

Then you were done with A16 and that's when some of us uninstalled.

 

I think a lot can change in the level gating but it has me making strategic choices about resources and points. I don't feel safe and I feel like all my advancement is done commensurate with risk. It would also be cool if I could only be able to craft to a certain level and top level stuff gets looted only.

 

What about all the single player people who didn't use the exploits because we weren't competing with others? So we used the system as intended while waiting for the exploits to actually be ironed out? Instead what we got was an update that gutted the game removing 80% of the content and replacing it with new systems that only fill about 50% of the huge hole that was created.

 

WIth the old system, what you decided to dedicate any given day to mattered. You can work on gathering materials and stockpiling food, or base improvements(which are now just completely pointless as nomad is now the optimal meta instead of a challenge run), go out scavenging for specific items you need(because if you wanted and auger you had to look in hardware stores or construction sites specifically not just go anywhere and bash zombie heads till you magically know how to make one). Oftern you could not do more than one or two of these tasks at any gven time. If you nelected one thing too much it would leave a weakness in your defence come horde night. Now you always have one priority task every day except for the half day before horde night. Go and fight zombies. Meaning has been removed from all player decisions and actions. The game is now "play how madmole likes or don't play at all" (and lets be honest, madmole is a simple dude, which is why all the changes are simplifications of previously rich and diverse systems).

 

This update was a downgrade in features. No matter how much they try to spin it as anything else.

[SerotoninCraver]

Level gating leads to the game being less fun... so today, for a demonstration, I recorded my play session to show how to exploit the mechanics to get a constant stream of Zombies to kill, how to use their pathing and AI to keep yourself from dying, and how easy it is to protect your staging structure. Some might consider almost a straight hour of zombie face pounding fun, I do not.

 

All settings are default except for hoard night, which is doubled, and air drops, which are lowered. I cranked the gamma correction so you can more easily see the video when it's nighttime, and I try to remember to turn on my headlamp to more accurately represent normal play. Over the course of the hour, I think I went up 4 or 5 levels. Again, I don't find this play style fun, I find it nessisary so that I may get the perks I want to play the game the way I want.

 

 

You can cheese this base design even further. On the long bridge to your fighting platform, place a full block of cobblestone every other block along its length.

 

Zombies have built-in delays of around 1.5 seconds every time they jump or land from a jump. By forcing them to jump and land repeatedly in order to traverse that bridge, you can slow down their progress considerably, and they will almost never strike the blocks they need to jump over. In your video it looks like it takes runners about 7 seconds to get from the top of the stairs to you, where they fall. By adding the jump blocks, it'll be more like 25 seconds. You can also replace the staircase stair blocks with full blocks for more delay.

[grieferbastard]

What about all the single player people who didn't use the exploits because we weren't competing with others? So we used the system as intended while waiting for the exploits to actually be ironed out? Instead what we got was an update that gutted the game removing 80% of the content and replacing it with new systems that only fill about 50% of the huge hole that was created.

 

WIth the old system, what you decided to dedicate any given day to mattered. You can work on gathering materials and stockpiling food, or base improvements(which are now just completely pointless as nomad is now the optimal meta instead of a challenge run), go out scavenging for specific items you need(because if you wanted and auger you had to look in hardware stores or construction sites specifically not just go anywhere and bash zombie heads till you magically know how to make one). Oftern you could not do more than one or two of these tasks at any gven time. If you nelected one thing too much it would leave a weakness in your defence come horde night. Now you always have one priority task every day except for the half day before horde night. Go and fight zombies. Meaning has been removed from all player decisions and actions. The game is now "play how madmole likes or don't play at all" (and lets be honest, madmole is a simple dude, which is why all the changes are simplifications of previously rich and diverse systems).

 

This update was a downgrade in features. No matter how much they try to spin it as anything else.

 

I would argue that nothing you did mattered because the game was a risk free environment. Your decisions were meaningless in the same way building a nice base in Minecraft Creative mode is meaningless, because there's no real risk or challenge unless you arbitrarily create one.

 

Which is fine. Play how you want. The question is, what's the default experience. Because A16 was never a zombie survival game. Not even close. It was a watered down crating game that hard zombies you could go kill when you wanted to.

 

I do hate the new stamina system, especially starting out. It's like you start out as a 60 year old asthmatic couch potato who struggles if he's got to walk to the kitchen for another beer and needs a meal and a nap if he's got to climb some stairs.

 

Not saying A17 is perfect but if the polls are any indication about half the players found A16 more or less pointless and unplayable. I'm all for crafting being viable and bases being able to be sturdy enough to be relevant but if you can simply ignore the zombies and go craft to level up you're eliminating all the risk while getting the same reward. That sort of situation should be possible but via a creative mode or toggle, even just toggles on zombie behavior. Not the default.

[Dunkurtin]

I would argue that nothing you did mattered because the game was a risk free environment. Your decisions were meaningless in the same way building a nice base in Minecraft Creative mode is meaningless, because there's no real risk or challenge unless you arbitrarily create one.

 

Which is fine. Play how you want. The question is, what's the default experience. Because A16 was never a zombie survival game. Not even close. It was a watered down crating game that hard zombies you could go kill when you wanted to.

 

I do hate the new stamina system, especially starting out. It's like you start out as a 60 year old asthmatic couch potato who struggles if he's got to walk to the kitchen for another beer and needs a meal and a nap if he's got to climb some stairs.

 

Not saying A17 is perfect but if the polls are any indication about half the players found A16 more or less pointless and unplayable. I'm all for crafting being viable and bases being able to be sturdy enough to be relevant but if you can simply ignore the zombies and go craft to level up you're eliminating all the risk while getting the same reward. That sort of situation should be possible but via a creative mode or toggle, even just toggles on zombie behavior. Not the default.

 

And I would argue that there is no risk in A17, seeing as the optimal play style is now to have no base. Your generalisation of A16 having no risk only applies to those who played in a way to minimize risk, which was one of many playstyles(and should still be a valid one in a sandbox survival rpg as it's a legitimate survival strat, but this update changed the game to an action survival game with light rpg elements). If you can't come up with any arguments that don't rely on that faulty premise then your argument is obviously not very solid is it?

 

ANd what polls are you looking at? Every poll available that I can find is over half preferred the old systems. Or is there a secret poll in some A17 fan club the rest of us haven't voted in?

 

EDIT: Seriously though, on that last point, WHAT polls are you looking at? Because you aren't looking at the one right here that's for certain. Specifically on the perk system, not even a full third of voters support the new system. Just over 30%, while the remaining ~68% prefer either the old system or one that is purely "learn by doing". The majority do not want this archaic, lazy progression system that does not suit this genre of game.

 

And funnily enough, out of all the poorly implemented changes, the perk system is the one that madmole is intent on "dyng on", when it's also the one system that isn't fixable by mere balancing and tweaking. You can't tweak poor core game design into something good.

[SevenDaysToDieModEditor]

I prefer the skill system of a15.

 

I think that spamming crafting can be improved by one or more of the following.

 

1 Set to obtain appropriate exp for each creation tool.

 

In order to do spaming crafting it is necessary to gather materials. spam crafting creates stone shovel, but iron axe has more exp, so it will be done there. Iron material is hard to gather from stones and woods so spaming crafting makes it more difficult.

 

2 waste fullness and stamina with craft.

 

If wasting fullness and stamina with craft it will be necessary to gather more food.

 

3 Get smith skill's exp not only with craft but with tool use and repair.

 

4 Reduce the exp obtained by crafting continuously.

 

5 Make zombie more responsive to craft noise.

 

6 Change the quality depending on the type of craft tool.

 

tool smith lv 20 stone axe quality 200 iron axe quality 25 steel axe quality 25.

tool smith lv 40 stone axe quality 300 iron axe quality 200 steel axe quality 25.

tool smith lv 60 stone axe quality 400 iron axe quality 300 steel axe quality 200.

 

My idea is above, but there may be other better ways as well.

[Dunkurtin]

Craft spamming can be fixed just by implementing diminishing returns on every craft beyond first time. Set a lower limit of say 10% of original xp gain.

Set tools and weapons to hit lower limit after 100 crafts. Building items that require to be built/rebuilt more often after 1000. Sure its technically still possible to grind like this but it is now extremely slow. Problem solved. Or just gut the whole game. That's logical.

[Poojam]

Craft spamming can be fixed just by implementing diminishing returns on every craft beyond first time. Set a lower limit of say 10% of original xp gain.

Set tools and weapons to hit lower limit after 100 crafts. Building items that require to be built/rebuilt more often after 1000. Sure its technically still possible to grind like this but it is now extremely slow. Problem solved. Or just gut the whole game. That's logical.

 

Spam crafting was the modus operandi in A15 and removed in A16. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Dunkurtin]

Spam crafting was the modus operandi in A15 and removed in A16. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm merely responding to the ridiculous reason that keeps getting waved around as a reason this update is supposedly good. Craft spamming was never something I did personally, even in A15, as such I wasn't 100% sure if there was still some way to do it and benefit in A16. I never went out of my way to look for ways to level easier. That's just what people keep screaming about to justify this train wreck.

[grieferbastard]

And I would argue that there is no risk in A17, seeing as the optimal play style is now to have no base. Your generalisation of A16 having no risk only applies to those who played in a way to minimize risk, which was one of many playstyles(and should still be a valid one in a sandbox survival rpg as it's a legitimate survival strat, but this update changed the game to an action survival game with light rpg elements). If you can't come up with any arguments that don't rely on that faulty premise then your argument is obviously not very solid is it?

 

ANd what polls are you looking at? Every poll available that I can find is over half preferred the old systems. Or is there a secret poll in some A17 fan club the rest of us haven't voted in?

 

EDIT: Seriously though, on that last point, WHAT polls are you looking at? Because you aren't looking at the one right here that's for certain. Specifically on the perk system, not even a full third of voters support the new system. Just over 30%, while the remaining ~68% prefer either the old system or one that is purely "learn by doing". The majority do not want this archaic, lazy progression system that does not suit this genre of game.

 

And funnily enough, out of all the poorly implemented changes, the perk system is the one that madmole is intent on "dyng on", when it's also the one system that isn't fixable by mere balancing and tweaking. You can't tweak poor core game design into something good.

 

 

There are two pinned polls and a 3rd poll on page 4 about zombie loot. Given that the poll about 'do you like A17 better' is about 70% preferring it and the zombie loot poll is about 60/40, the only place that likes the old system more is people are about 60/40 in favor of no level gating.

 

Your argument is entirely based upon a faulty premise. Requiring assumption of risk to advance QUICKLY (because you can still advance without risk, dig to bedrock and bike around on horde night) doesn't invalidate any other approach to the game. If you really, really want to you can dig to bedrock and spam stone axes until you've leveled to 100. It's just no longer the optimal way to advance in the game.

 

As I said before, give digging zombies a toggle button, just like zombies running at night. If someone wants an easier game where they can just putter around and dig a hole and skip right to steel tools and make a trap base where they can sip tea and watch zombies die or godmode out in elite gear just like A16.

 

The only thing in question there is what's the default experience. The game has a creative mode, you can still play whatever playstyle you want. No choices were removed there just the illusion that playing with near 0 risk is the same challenge level as playing in an environment that isn't safe.

 

The perk system is likely to stay because gating in one form or another is the only way to create progression. A16 had 0 progression. It was more or less playing in creative mode but with 15-30 minutes of kiting daytime zombies and digging a tunnel to go craft in before creative was largely unlocked and you could just make steel whatever, kite zombies out of bookstores and apartments, go collect books and make whatever. It was window dressing on a creativemode game environment. Can the perk system be improved? Absolutely. Is the game likely to go back to 0 meaningful progression and low/no risk advancement being as fast or faster than some/high risk advancement? Unlikely, at least as the default experience.

 

 

Madmole is likely dedicated to the perk system because in any game development players generally want it all now. They don't want to use stone or iron tools. They don't want to fight to get stuff. They want to get to the best stuff as fast as possible, at least if you ask them. In game play however that means that 90% of the content just exists to remind players that their tools/equipment/armor is the *best* tools/equipment/armor. So if you only had steel tools and such people would say there's not enough content, but then complain if they have to use anything that's not the best stuff.

 

Hence gating, to force players to use lower tier gear for a while so that you're progressing to the top tier stuff not all but starting with it. A16 nobody used stone tools and iron tools save to mine the resources to get steel ones... so why not just remove them?

[Dunkurtin]

There are two pinned polls and a 3rd poll on page 4 about zombie loot. Given that the poll about 'do you like A17 better' is about 70% preferring it and the zombie loot poll is about 60/40, the only place that likes the old system more is people are about 60/40 in favor of no level gating.

 

Your argument is entirely based upon a faulty premise. Requiring assumption of risk to advance QUICKLY (because you can still advance without risk, dig to bedrock and bike around on horde night) doesn't invalidate any other approach to the game. If you really, really want to you can dig to bedrock and spam stone axes until you've leveled to 100. It's just no longer the optimal way to advance in the game.

 

As I said before, give digging zombies a toggle button, just like zombies running at night. If someone wants an easier game where they can just putter around and dig a hole and skip right to steel tools and make a trap base where they can sip tea and watch zombies die or godmode out in elite gear just like A16.

 

The only thing in question there is what's the default experience. The game has a creative mode, you can still play whatever playstyle you want. No choices were removed there just the illusion that playing with near 0 risk is the same challenge level as playing in an environment that isn't safe.

 

The perk system is likely to stay because gating in one form or another is the only way to create progression. A16 had 0 progression. It was more or less playing in creative mode but with 15-30 minutes of kiting daytime zombies and digging a tunnel to go craft in before creative was largely unlocked and you could just make steel whatever, kite zombies out of bookstores and apartments, go collect books and make whatever. It was window dressing on a creativemode game environment. Can the perk system be improved? Absolutely. Is the game likely to go back to 0 meaningful progression and low/no risk advancement being as fast or faster than some/high risk advancement? Unlikely, at least as the default experience.

 

 

Madmole is likely dedicated to the perk system because in any game development players generally want it all now. They don't want to use stone or iron tools. They don't want to fight to get stuff. They want to get to the best stuff as fast as possible, at least if you ask them. In game play however that means that 90% of the content just exists to remind players that their tools/equipment/armor is the *best* tools/equipment/armor. So if you only had steel tools and such people would say there's not enough content, but then complain if they have to use anything that's not the best stuff.

 

Hence gating, to force players to use lower tier gear for a while so that you're progressing to the top tier stuff not all but starting with it. A16 nobody used stone tools and iron tools save to mine the resources to get steel ones... so why not just remove them?

 

Why should i bother reading this entire post when you start by not even bothering to properly represent the poll results. The other poll you mention, 30% prefer it, ~30% are happy to tolerate it for the few improvements with hope the rest will be fixed (aka they dont like it as is but have hope) and the rest are ambivalent or dislike it.

 

 

ANd you never actually pointed out how my premise was faulty? Just misrepresented it completely. Responding to me actually explaining the fault in your premise with the same accusation doesn't make it true. Digging to bedrock and mass crafting was never efficient in A16, let alone the most efficient. Are you incapable of making an argument without relying on completely fabricated exaggerations? Also what is your issue with being able to do something else to level other skills when that is what this entire patch revolves around? Except now it IS the most efficient way to do everything, instead of being slow and innefficient like it should be.

 

Gating is not the only way to create progression, A16 arguably had more progression than A17, just because you say it didn't doesn't make it true. Especially as you can't back it up by making all the different skills you needed to actually work on disappear. There is actually a really good post in another thread that explains how gated perk trees came into being and why they are not suitable for this game style. They are an archaic form of artificially slowing progression for end game boss fights. Something this game doesn't have. They work best for story driven games, something this game is not. A gated perk system in a survival sandbox is lazy and bad game design. The old system was rich and diverse, giving varying rewards for different playstyles, the new one gives the same rewards for the one optmal playstyle. Replayability is dead with this update. Every playthrough will feel the same as the last because you don;t have options anymore.

 

This isn't a crafting survival horde rpg anymore, it's an action game with lightweight rpg, survival and crafting elements now.

 

Madmole is dedicated to the perk system because it's simple, and unfortunately, he is rather simple minded, as he has proven extensively with his response to the criticism of this update and his innability to understand why people are so unhappy.

[BloodDeacon]

Spam crafting was the modus operandi in A15 and removed in A16. I don't know what you're talking about.

I know exactly what both of you are talking about.

1) In A15 spam-crafting was a virtual necessity because it was directly tied to crafting skills that would both improve your crafted equipment and give you a pretty healthy chunk of general XP upon getting a skill-up.

2) In A16 crafting was no longer tied to "learn-by-doing" skills, and instead granted a trivial and insignificant amount of XP from creation (like fractions of a point in many cases). It certainly wasn't a viable means of leveling up, but for whatever reason a bunch of people (including in this thread) have been erroneously claiming that it was since A17 dropped. It's likely they are either badly misremembering details or simply didn't play A16. Mining for materials underground, and in particular ripping through stone with the Auger granted did offer a ludicrous amount of XP, but I see no reason that couldn't have been rebalanced in lieu of the mess of a lazy progression system the game has now.

 

One irony is that as poor as the XP gain is from crafting in A17, it outpaces what A16 granted you by tenfold or more, meaning that technically speaking spam-crafting is more viable in A17 than in A16 -- albeit not efficient or practical.

[grieferbastard]

Why should i bother reading this entire post when you start by not even bothering to properly represent the poll results. The other poll you mention, 30% prefer it, ~30% are happy to tolerate it for the few improvements with hope the rest will be fixed (aka they dont like it as is but have hope) and the rest are ambivalent or dislike it.

 

 

ANd you never actually pointed out how my premise was faulty? Just misrepresented it completely. Responding to me actually explaining the fault in your premise with the same accusation doesn't make it true. Digging to bedrock and mass crafting was never efficient in A16, let alone the most efficient. Are you incapable of making an argument without relying on completely fabricated exaggerations? Also what is your issue with being able to do something else to level other skills when that is what this entire patch revolves around? Except now it IS the most efficient way to do everything, instead of being slow and innefficient like it should be.

 

Gating is not the only way to create progression, A16 arguably had more progression than A17, just because you say it didn't doesn't make it true. Especially as you can't back it up by making all the different skills you needed to actually work on disappear. There is actually a really good post in another thread that explains how gated perk trees came into being and why they are not suitable for this game style. They are an archaic form of artificially slowing progression for end game boss fights. Something this game doesn't have. They work best for story driven games, something this game is not. A gated perk system in a survival sandbox is lazy and bad game design. The old system was rich and diverse, giving varying rewards for different playstyles, the new one gives the same rewards for the one optmal playstyle. Replayability is dead with this update. Every playthrough will feel the same as the last because you don;t have options anymore.

 

This isn't a crafting survival horde rpg anymore, it's an action game with lightweight rpg, survival and crafting elements now.

 

Madmole is dedicated to the perk system because it's simple, and unfortunately, he is rather simple minded, as he has proven extensively with his response to the criticism of this update and his innability to understand why people are so unhappy.

 

 

No. 32% dislike it. 10% are ambivalent. 48% prefer it. I get that it doesn't jive with what you're trying to say but that's because what you're trying to say is flat out false.

 

A16 digging to bedrock and in fact mining of any sort was the best, easiest way to get get XP.

 

You're conflating risk avoidance vs risk taking as equal 'playstyles' in a zombie survival game. They are 'playstyles' in the same way 'running past everything to open loot boxes then running to the exit' is a playstyle for a level shooter like Doom. Can you do it? Sure. Is it going to reward you anything like what clearing the level does? No, of course not, because that would be ♥♥♥♥ game design.

 

You have more options now than you did in A16; just that the easiest options are no longer the fastest ways to advance. That's the issue. Avoid zombies, mine and craft for XP, fight only when you have to. On horde nights stay on the run or swim into the middle of a lake or get into the top of a skyscraper. Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you absolutely can still play risk averse you're just going to level up slower and it's less convenient because you've got to work harder to find places to hide, you can't just lock away and craft for hours day and night with no risk.

 

Level gating was always in since the skill system went in. What form its taken has changed. Level gating is not and has never been in any game design about boss fights. It's about slowing the rate of content consumption regardless of the form that content takes. Be that level gating areas or resources or equipment or skill unlocks their purpose is to extend the time spent within each frame of content. Unless your game design has no actual progression and all content is of equal value then the game's going to have some form of gating to slow progression to give a purpose and value to the content itself outside of top tier. For an ungated system you'd need to have stone and iron tools just as useful and relevant and steel ones or else there's no real reason to use stone and iron save for an incredibly short period while you get the resources to make steel.

 

Your ad hominem insults about Madmole just drill down on the same point of your arguments being fundamentally false. No idea who anyone at TFP are but I'm pretty confident that they all understand the criticisms and why, just that they realize the answers to those criticisms are not 'Gosh, you guys are right' ergo they won't make you happy. You keep couching your desire for a risk free game environment as the default game experience. You can still do that via turning zombies off when you don't want them coming after you and back on when you do. You can make them walk at night. I'm all for a 'digging' toggle. All for a means of adjusting the XP gain you get from crafting way up via a slider.

 

However the default experience for the game in A17 is more in keeping with the stated design of the game on the steam page and matching risk with reward. If the intent of TFP is to make an actual zombie horror survival game with a progression of tools and weapons and goods then A17 is vastly more like that then A15 and A16 ever was.

 

So, again. You can still play a non-combatant and avoid zombies. It's harder and slower than it was but you can. That was not removed. All that changed is making taking higher risks pay higher, faster rewards and the ability to go to advanced tools and equipment has been slowed down, giving relevance to the early tier content.

[pakrninja]

I like the new perk system over A16.

I'm glad max health and stamina are separated from eating food.

I would like level gates removed.

I would like too few points to buy everything

 

I like being able to customize my character however I want regardless of what my player level is.

I prefer all skills be 1 point each, with a maximum number of skill points available preventing maxing out character. I would like to see MORE skills actually, separating out individual items that we can learn leading to endless possibilities for character mastering.

Reduce maximum player level (level 100 max), increase amount of XP needed to level to force players to "class up".

 

It would be nice to see skill point values tied to difficulty chosen in the menu screen (Difficulty level x skill point).

[Damocles]

I would like the gamestage system be decoupled from the player-level progress, and be only linked to either time or increases triggered by visiting more areas (visiting new POIs and towns increasing the gamestage).

 

Currently the player is punished for progressing, by scaling up the enemies in parallel.

[Drisky]

I like the current system, the only gripe i have is i would like to be able to reach a level that i can unlock everything. Some of us don't have friends and play alone haha. I feel like i should be able to max everything if i'm willing to put in the grind to reach what would be a higher level than the current cap.

 

My suggestions would be:

 

1) to make it optional and have a server setting that allows you to adjust the level cap

 

2)implement a bit of the old system were you can get skill points for completing trader quests, but make it something you have to work for, for example a tier 5 trader quest will give you 1 skill point so you have to work up to that tier and then complete tier 5's that way its not easy to max out but the means to do it are there if you are willing to put in the hours and the grind.

[-Holo-]

*I really dislike most of the new perksystem, A16 was better, but A15 still better from my perspective. I so hate magical buttons to learn things

*The current food/stamina system feels way to clunky and needing to constantly micromanage, or eat a small car worth of food. (eating 20 cans of pears from starving to full?!?, eating 5 full cans of chicken rations to get full from 0?)

*I would the level gates removed and having all crafting skills like forge, minibike, tools etc be random books to find to learn. (permanently)

*I would like too few points to complete everything when playing multiplayer. When playing single it would be good to be able to. so. as an option.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

*I really dislike most of the new perksystem, A16 was better, but A15 still better from my perspective. I so hate magical buttons to learn things

*The current food/stamina system feels way to clunky and needing to constantly micromanage, or eat a small car worth of food. (eating 20 cans of pears from starving to full?!?, eating 5 full cans of chicken rations to get full from 0?)

*I would the level gates removed and having all crafting skills like forge, minibike, tools etc be random books to find to learn. (permanently)

*I would like too few points to complete everything when playing multiplayer. When playing single it would be good to be able to. so. as an option.

 

I think instead of rng gating the forge and other things, it should be quest rewards for traders. The trader tells you how to make a forge, chem station, or cement mixer, and to activate the perk you activate the broken one in the trader and it goes from broke to fixed.

 

This forces players to do quests, and makes quests more rewarding.

 

I love the current non crafting perks though. From a game play stand point, i view it as a city person slowly turning into a wilderness person.

 

As for the hunger system, i hate it at the moment. Food diminishes too fast, and the stamina nerf is too simplistic and breaks immersion. I would rather see the stamina debuff hit at -50 hunger. Before that at -25 hunger, an xp debuff, and starvation should hit when you lose -75 hunger.

[Ornias]

I’ll take a page from Guppy’s book and simply state why I like the new system better.

 

It has room to grow. I see more attributes with all new perks attached coming in the future

 

It creates choice. Choosing between this OR that is always more interesting to me. When I really want to open up more of my pack AND want to get more resources from harvesting but only one point to spend that is awesome.

 

It creates more builds. There are so many more viable and different options to choose from where you actually feel strong in some areas and weak in others. In SP this creates unique and different challenges each time I play and when I play with my Mom and brother we can have distinct roles and feel as though our strengths are covering for the weaknesses.

 

I have spent all points in perception, all points in Strength, all points in Agility, and all points in Fortitude and the game felt different but still viable each time.

 

For those who speed through the most efficient path no system will offer variety since they will always find the one true path and take it every single time. Can’t develop for those people. The current system is great because I can choose where to spend my points and be strong and by playing the game with a different mix of attributes and perks each time it has stayed fresher longer than A16 did.

 

In A16 I mined and got better at it automatically without choice. I still mine in A17 but I choose when and how I get better at it. That is more fun for me.

 

/special boy since 1969

 

The perk system virtually removes RNG from a game you are touting as a RPG now though. I used to get exited to find the crossbow book or forge book or the holy grail mini bike book, now I don't even bother with the Crack-a-Books unless I need something to sell to the vendor. I love the new POI's, they're great, but I really loathe the perk system in this type of game. There is virtually zero reason to explore anymore since every town I have seen is just a copy of the one I spawn at.

[Dunkurtin]

What you're stating is an opinion, not a fact, however much you try and portray it as one.

 

For example:

 

1) For me - this system creates no less choice than I already had. As an SP only player, first thing I do in every game, this or any other one, is mod it to permit myself to eventually gain all skills wherever I can. I freely admit that means I have little "choice" anyway, since I'll always end up with everything eventually no matter what I do.

 

2) For Roland (and, presumably, others) - they like to create "classes" of characters, good at some things, not so at others. This system does give them that choice, regardless of whether its a choice you (or I) might like, or a style of implementation you (or I) might like.

 

I'm not a big fan of the skill/perk system, I prefer "learn by doing", but it's not accurate to claim, as a fact, that this system does not create choice. That is patently false.

 

FFS, the amountof available choices is not an opinion. You can;t discount someone talking about statistics and actual numbers by saying its opinion, because it is not. It's fact.

 

I can't make this any clearer. Based on the current system, there are objectively less potential choices available to the player. This is rather basic mathermatics, and no amount of crying "thats your opinion" will change that.

 

A fast food restaurant doesn't offer 8 flavours of soda then later remove 5 and try to tell their customers they've given them more choice. That is basically a simplified example what everyone trying to dismiss the criticism of there being less choice is doing.

[Exxodous]

FFS, the amountof available choices is not an opinion. You can;t discount someone talking about statistics and actual numbers by saying its opinion, because it is not. It's fact.

 

I can't make this any clearer. Based on the current system, there are objectively less potential choices available to the player. This is rather basic mathermatics, and no amount of crying "thats your opinion" will change that.

 

A fast food restaurant doesn't offer 8 flavours of soda then later remove 5 and try to tell their customers they've given them more choice. That is basically a simplified example what everyone trying to dismiss the criticism of there being less choice is doing.

 

You never did tell me what kinda of build was not possible any longer....? Still curious. What character choice has been taken away?

[Dunkurtin]

You never did tell me what kinda of build was not possible any longer....? Still curious. What character choice has been taken away?

 

All builds that use skills that were removed, its too many for me to calculatre quickly. You want examples look at it yourself. I'm not going to waste my time when I have given a more than adequate answer and you are just insisting on being pedantic for the sake of it. If you can't see it now I doubt if I even took the time to calculate all potential build paths for both systems at several levels and give you the exact numbers you would still claim it is only my opinion that larger number is larger.

 

The old system had more skill types at level one than the new one has perks. At your first level up you could invest in increasing any single skill available by a small increment. That is already more potential choices than the new system, and thats only with 1 out of 5 points and not even considering the perks that went with the skills.

 

The new system is so ridiculously simplified compared to the old that I honestly don't understand how you can think for even a moment that it offers even close to the choices we had before, let alone more.

[Exxodous]

All builds that use skills that were removed, its too many for me to calculatre quickly. You want examples look at it yourself. I'm not going to waste my time when I have given a more than adequate answer and you are just insisting on being pedantic for the sake of it. If you can't see it now I doubt if I even took the time to calculate all potential build paths for both systems at several levels and give you the exact numbers you would still claim it is only my opinion that larger number is larger.

 

The old system had more skill types at level one than the new one has perks. At your first level up you could invest in increasing any single skill available by a small increment. That is already more potential choices than the new system, and thats only with 1 out of 5 points and not even considering the perks that went with the skills.

 

The new system is so ridiculously simplified compared to the old that I honestly don't understand how you can think for even a moment that it offers even close to the choices we had before, let alone more.

 

I'm sorry I do not feel you have not given a more than adequate answer. You claim that since so many skills were removed certain builds were impossible.

 

I've simply asked what skills and which char builds? What skill/build is not possible in this Alpha that was possible in the previous one. It's possible I'm just blinded by TFP's smokescreen.

 

Since there are so "many" it would seem easy to answer but you either can't or refuse to come up with ONE. I really figured you would knock this one out of the park since is so obvious (to you)

[Dunkurtin]

I'm sorry I do not feel you have not given a more than adequate answer. You claim that since so many skills were removed certain builds were impossible.

 

I've simply asked what skills and which char builds? What skill/build is not possible in this Alpha that was possible in the previous one. It's possible I'm just blinded by TFP's smokescreen.

 

Since there are so "many" it would seem easy to answer but you either can't or refuse to come up with ONE. I really figured you would knock this one out of the park since is so obvious (to you)

 

You are obviously just trolling now. If a skill is not available then any previous builds that used that are not available. This is self explanatory. Any child could understand it.

 

If you actually want to have a meaningful discussion. Let me know, but these childish misdirection attempts are growing tiresome and I don't have any desire to keep repeating the obvious for you.

[Exxodous]

You are obviously just trolling now. If a skill is not available then any previous builds that used that are not available. This is self explanatory. Any child could understand it.

 

If you actually want to have a meaningful discussion. Let me know, but these childish misdirection attempts are growing tiresome and I don't have any desire to keep repeating the obvious for you.

 

And....still no answer. I hope TFP is able to fix what is missing from the game for you, of course it would probably be easier if you would actually tell them, specifically..

[Dunkurtin]

And....still no answer. I hope TFP is able to fix what is missing from the game for you, of course it would probably be easier if you would actually tell them, specifically..

 

I'm not sitting at my computer with both trees in front of me so I can't go through and tell you exactly what got removed.

 

The thing is you know I'm right. You are just not wanting to acknowledge it. This is obvious because you know that skills have been removed. If that wasn't true you would have disputed me on that, rather than resorting to the misdirection tactic of demanding that I take the time to list exact examples.

 

You know skills have been removed. You know that makes them no longer available for people to include in their builds. You know that means there are less build choices. You know that skills can be paired with a range of other skills, so that for every skill removed there are several less potential builds(possibly hundreds depending what level range you focus on) not just one single less build choice.

 

You know all this. But you like the system so you can't admit it because then you can't dismiss how valid everyone who dislikes it's criticisms are anymore. That's too much cognitive dissonance for you to handle. So instead you use immature misdirection tactics so you can pretend to yourself that it is just a matter of opinion and not objective data.

 

I'm sick of this pointless game of tag. If you want to bury your head in the sand, bury your head, don't try to tell everyone else they're wrong for not burying theirs too.