Perks System and Level Gates

[Exxodous]

I'm not sitting at my computer with both trees in front of me so I can't go through and tell you exactly what got removed.

 

The thing is you know I'm right. You are just not wanting to acknowledge it. This is obvious because you know that skills have been removed. If that wasn't true you would have disputed me on that, rather than resorting to the misdirection tactic of demanding that I take the time to list exact examples.

 

You know skills have been removed. You know that makes them no longer available for people to include in their builds. You know that means there are less build choices. You know that skills can be paired with a range of other skills, so that for every skill removed there are several less potential builds(possibly hundreds depending what level range you focus on) not just one single less build choice.

 

You know all this. But you like the system so you can't admit it because then you can't dismiss how valid everyone who dislikes it's criticisms are anymore. That's too much cognitive dissonance for you to handle. So instead you use immature misdirection tactics so you can pretend to yourself that it is just a matter of opinion and not objective data.

 

I'm sick of this pointless game of tag. If you want to bury your head in the sand, bury your head, don't try to tell everyone else they're wrong for not burying theirs too.

 

Your correct, I do like the new system and I'm aware that you do not and sympathise with you. I just don't know why....exactly. I just thought that since you were so emphatic about the missing skills you'd know what they were, I only wanted one....I'm old with a bad memory, that's my excuse.

[Guppycur]

Unfortunately Dun, your "adequate answer" is still just an opinion.

 

Skills have been removed, skills have been added, the math on whether or not there are more or less is meaningless, because you're still drawing conclusions from either "more skills is better" or "less skills is better".

 

...it is your opinion that the fewer (if your math is correct) choices are worse.

 

HOWEVER, for fun I did a cursory count... and it appears your math is correct.

 

A16:

13 skills

52 perks

=65 boons

 

A17:

5 attributes governing

10 skills

45 perks

=60 boons

[Dunkurtin]

Unfortunately Dun, your "adequate answer" is still just an opinion.

 

Skills have been removed, skills have been added, the math on whether or not there are more or less is meaningless, because you're still drawing conclusions from either "more skills is better" or "less skills is better".

 

...it is your opinion that the fewer (if your math is correct) choices are worse.

 

HOWEVER, for fun I did a cursory count... and it appears your math is correct.

 

A16:

13 skills

52 perks

=65 boons

 

A17:

5 attributes governing

10 skills

45 perks

=60 boons

 

Some of those skills are new but don't add any thing to the game so no extra build potential, as they merely unlock items that we already had access too. They just paid out the skill number a bit. Others consolidate multiple skills into one I think, meaning you can technically still do those things, but there are still less overall builds as specialisation is no longer a thing.

 

Honestly my biggest issue with the new perk system isn't just that it is simpler (which does make the game too boring for me to enjoy) but how the Devs are lying about it. No other Dev team of a game that uses a system like this tries to claim it opens up character development choices. They know that archetypal skill systems don't allow for specialisation. Rather the ability to make more generalised characters. Now if the Devs were saying that their new system was removing specialisation rather than increasing it, and as a result of cutting down on the choices players require to make they will have a more streamlined and versatile character build, then that would be fine. Because that's an accurate representation of the new system.

 

That's not what they're saying though. They're lying instead. And even after being called on those lies multiple times they are persisting with them. That shows a complete lack of respect for their user base and that's not acceptable in my opinion.

[Guppycur]

Some of the a16 skills were pretty worthless too, but that's not the point.

 

I also don't agree about the "devs are lying" bit. They're openly saying that they do NOT WANT jack of all trades; that they want specialized builds... it's literally the reason why they limited it. They WANTED you to have to choose a specialization. Which, btw, is the one part of the new system I AM fine with.

[Exxodous]

Unfortunately Dun, your "adequate answer" is still just an opinion.

 

Skills have been removed, skills have been added, the math on whether or not there are more or less is meaningless, because you're still drawing conclusions from either "more skills is better" or "less skills is better".

 

...it is your opinion that the fewer (if your math is correct) choices are worse.

 

HOWEVER, for fun I did a cursory count... and it appears your math is correct.

 

A16:

13 skills

52 perks

=65 boons

 

A17:

5 attributes governing

10 skills

45 perks

=60 boons

 

There are also 10 levels in each of the 5 attributes and hunger and thirst were combined (which doesn't affect char dev much imo). I'm not sure how that figures into the math, it was never my best subject.

[Dunkurtin]

Some of the a16 skills were pretty worthless too, but that's not the point.

 

I also don't agree about the "devs are lying" bit. They're openly saying that they do NOT WANT jack of all trades; that they want specialized builds... it's literally the reason why they limited it. They WANTED you to have to choose a specialization. Which, btw, is the one part of the new system I AM fine with.

 

This system doesn't create specialised builds though. It's creates generalised ones. Yes it's harder to now specialise in two things governed by seperate attributes, but being forced into 5 broad build types is not specialisation.

 

They keep saying it opens up build options, but it closes out way more than it opens.

They keep saying we can be more specialised, but the new tree only allows for generalisation. Yes it a narrowish generalisation but still a generalisation.

 

 

Edit: basically I just want madmole to admit all their changes were really simplifications. That they are streamlining things not opening them up. That they are moving away from hardcore rpg to light rpg elements. Instead of claiming the opposite.

[Guppycur]

This system doesn't created specialised builds though. It's createa generalised ones. Yes it's harder to now specialise in two things governed by seperate attributes, but being forced into 5 broad build types is not specialisation.

 

That's where balance comes in. It's simply not well balanced yet.

 

I play a melee guy; I don't bother with Int, only Str and anything that buys me stamina. I'm very specialized in that area. It works well. 0 points in anything except STR and whatever the one that has Cardio is. I don't cook, I don't farm, I don't craft. I'm specialized in one thing; swinging a fracking hammer.

 

I looked into doing that for ranged, and it's just not as good, it needs balance, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but can be done.

 

The guy in our group (Doombringer101) specializes in Int, but has enough points to spread out to make him a "generic" character... so, almost there, but again, needs balance.

 

...and I ain't worried about balance this early in release.

[HungryZombie]

The perk system virtually removes RNG from a game you are touting as a RPG now though. I used to get exited to find the crossbow book or forge book or the holy grail mini bike book, now I don't even bother with the Crack-a-Books unless I need something to sell to the vendor. I love the new POI's, they're great, but I really loathe the perk system in this type of game. There is virtually zero reason to explore anymore since every town I have seen is just a copy of the one I spawn at.

 

I dig what you are saying but personally I'd rather have RNG come into play regarding loot. Loot has so much potential to expand now. I don't want RNG to cockblock my character progression.

[HungryZombie]

There's an important distinction to make here between builds that are possible, as in you can potentially make them, and builds that are practical, which are the ones that work. While the pool of possible builds might not have changed the pool of practical builds has shrank significantly because of the way the perk system is set up. Most perks have an ideal level that you don't want to push past or you're just wasting points. As an example, Cardio becomes useless the second you can make a bicycle so taking any Cardio is impractical. There is no point in taking Rank 2+ of Master Chef since the recipes you get at Rank 1 are perfectly fine for most of the game. There is no point in ranking Intellect up early because its most useful skill, Hammer and Forge, is level-gated. Strength is pretty much the only stat for the early game, since it governs melee damage, resource collection, and backpack space, all of which are vital. All of these mean that the grouping of practical builds is significantly smaller and less varied than it was in A16.

 

On the original topic, just say no to microtransactions in pay-to-play games.

 

This is just something I observed and don't know for sure but it seems like when I press SHIFT on a bike I go faster. It also seemed like the more I perked in Cardio the less stamina drain I had on the bike when holding shift. Anyone else feel this or know for sure Cardio Perk effect sprinting on the bike?

[Dunkurtin]

That's where balance comes in. It's simply not well balanced yet.

 

I play a melee guy; I don't bother with Int, only Str and anything that buys me stamina. I'm very specialized in that area. It works well. 0 points in anything except STR and whatever the one that has Cardio is. I don't cook, I don't farm, I don't craft. I'm specialized in one thing; swinging a fracking hammer.

 

I looked into doing that for ranged, and it's just not as good, it needs balance, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but can be done.

 

The guy in our group (Doombringer101) specializes in Int, but has enough points to spread out to make him a "generic" character... so, almost there, but again, needs balance.

 

...and I ain't worried about balance this early in release.

 

Yes balance will improve things. But there is less potential overall with the new system. Balance can't change that. The depth of the older systems was what made me invest in this game. This new system will never have the same depth the old could have. And for players like me that makes the rest of the game a lot less enjoyable.

 

EDIT: And if they want to make a a simpler game that's fine, I just wish they'd made that known earlier. I'm not going to say I regret buying the game, because I definitely got my money's worth out of it. But if I hadn't bought it before now, I wouldn't buy the current version even if it was on sale for $5. And it's fine of people enjoy a simpler game, just stop telling us that don't that it's not simpler. Stop trying to invalidate our reasons for no longer enjoying the game. It is annoying and incredibly frustrating.

 

They've already made enough off this game to finish it, so they don't need microtransactions. But considering that the large part of the community they have now burned won't be jumping onto another early access from them (I personally will not be buying any games mm I involved in until they reach full release unless he changes his direction) because we don't feel they can be trusted. So maybe they will need micro transactions after full release to fund their next project. Who knows.

[Exxodous]

This system doesn't create specialised builds though. It's creates generalised ones. Yes it's harder to now specialise in two things governed by seperate attributes, but being forced into 5 broad build types is not specialisation.

 

They keep saying it opens up build options, but it closes out way more than it opens.

They keep saying we can be more specialised, but the new tree only allows for generalisation. Yes it a narrowish generalisation but still a generalisation.

 

In my MP game, my wife makes all 4 of us our level 5 tools, she made all our workstations, mines and builds. None of the rest of us have any points in INT, 69er or motherload. Seems her char is pretty specialized. I go for clubs and bows with a high degree of stealth as I like to work my way through POI's, my son is a run and gunner using no stealth and uses blades and shotguns. Seems pretty specialized to me.

[DEADication]

It's all good espousing how well specialisation works with CO-OP play... but what about solo players?

Many of us have been left with the feeling that we just don't count anymore.

[Guppycur]

It's all good espousing how well specialisation works with CO-OP play... but what about solo players?

Many of us have been left with the feeling that we just don't count anymore.

 

Well it simply means that your progression is much slower; which makes sense, you're playing by yourself...

 

...I imagine SP would benefit from some of the "get more points to spend early" mods out there.

 

An alternative would be to split all XP by the number of players in a party, I guess, but I think the game kinda already does that.

[OzHawkeye]

It's all good espousing how well specialisation works with CO-OP play... but what about solo players?

Many of us have been left with the feeling that we just don't count anymore.

 

Well, first thing I do on each new build, is mod the progression file to permit me to eventually gain all skills. Of course, some of those skills are perfectly useless in SP, but, that's ok, the game has to cater to multiple play styles.

[Dunkurtin]

In my MP game, my wife makes all 4 of us our level 5 tools, she made all our workstations, mines and builds. None of the rest of us have any points in INT, 69er or motherload. Seems her char is pretty specialized. I go for clubs and bows with a high degree of stealth as I like to work my way through POI's, my son is a run and gunner using no stealth and uses blades and shotguns. Seems pretty specialized to me.

 

In A16 your son could have the choice of just being trained in bladed weapons to do more damage, taking the knife guy perks to further increase damage and harvesting while decrease stam usage. And then also further specialising to increase dismemberment chance so he can crowd control zombies by crippling them (dismemberment isn't even in the game anymore). That is more specialised. Instead all he has is deep cuts.

He can't even become more specialised by having your crafter craft a high level weapon for him because item quality means nothing now.

[Guppycur]

In A16 your son could have the choice of just being trained in bladed weapons to do more damage, taking the knife guy perks to further increase damage and harvesting while decrease stam usage. And then also further specialising to increase dismemberment chance so he can crowd control zombies by crippling them (dismemberment isn't even in the game anymore). That is more specialised. Instead all he has is deep cuts.

He can't even become more specialised by having your crafter craft a high level weapon for him because item quality means nothing now.

 

It's just different. Worse? Yeh, absolutely. But it's still specialization.

 

You're making the wrong arguments for your completely valid side.

[Dunkurtin]

It's just different. Worse? Yeh, absolutely. But it's still specialization.

 

You're making the wrong arguments for your completely valid side.

 

Different as in less specialised...thats the point. I'm not making the wrong argument. Exoodus wanted examples earlier, I just provided one. The old system offers more options for specialisation. You had skill levels you could increase, basic perks, more advanced perks. Now you just have the basic perks.

 

You could also have really oddball specialisations if you wanted. Like a character who was great at all things melee combat related and then farming. Just farming, nothing else, not cooking or scavenging or anything. Combat and farming.

 

That is a system that allows people to specialise as much as they want.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I think the problem here, is that inappropriate things are locked behind perks. the forge, chem station, and work bench should not be locked behind perks. Craft-able items should not be locked behind perks.

 

Now, i understand the logic behind the level gating of the perks: they want to slow progression down. If there was no random gen option, then they would hide blueprints behind meat wall dungeons.

 

The problem is random gen: how do you restrict access to forges and other blocks? they chose level gates this time around. I am conflicted by this. On one hand it works, you can't have a forge or iron tools until level 20. you have to earn them. One the other hand it stifles crafting. Crafting is a core mechanic to this game.

 

After a bit i was able to cope with the level gates for tools and forges. Old skill system, new skill system, i am bothered.

 

Rant/ But man does the hunger system piss me off. It does more than piss in my corn flakes, it takes a dump in them, then yells at me for not taking a bite. I hate the current hunger system.\end rant

 

The game play issue is that the fun pimps do not want day 1 forge or concrete blocks. Now, after watching youtubers i am warming up more to the level gates thanks to the cement bags in the pois. You are no longer restricted to the cement mixer for concrete. Now the giant issue is that the grind takes forever.

 

So far with the perks, it seems that the ones that we have to take are the stamina and inventory perks, along with crafting perks. This sets off a red flag with me. So at certain level gates people spend their perk points on certain perks that are almost mandatory? This does not seem right.

 

There are things that need some work. there needs to be more space and storage mods, low tier ones should be craftable by default, and the high tier ones should be amazing but expensive or require RNGesus. Drugs should be craft able that affect strength, and grant some perks. Traders should offer useful stuff. This would allow the current system to remain in place, while not locking people into certain perks every level.

[Guppycur]

Easy. You gain intelligence by either getting older, thus wiser, or by doing, or by reading books, or by being taught... so many ways, all of them should be valid.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Different as in less specialised...thats the point. I'm not making the wrong argument. Exoodus wanted examples earlier, I just provided one. The old system offers more options for specialisation. You had skill levels you could increase, basic perks, more advanced perks. Now you just have the basic perks.

 

You could also have really oddball specialisations if you wanted. Like a character who was great at all things melee combat related and then farming. Just farming, nothing else, not cooking or scavenging or anything. Combat and farming.

 

That is a system that allows people to specialise as much as they want.

 

And it took you... 76 posts to make that point. That's MY point.

[Dunkurtin]

Easy. You gain intelligence by either getting older, thus wiser, or by doing, or by reading books, or by being taught... so many ways, all of them should be valid.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

And it took you... 76 posts to make that point. That's MY point.

 

NO it really didn't. I made the point several times over in that time. Don't throw that ♥♥♥♥ at me when you know very well that the only reason it has taken so long is the stubborness of others to not accept what is right in front of them.

[Z-Pooh-Bear]

I prefer a system that is completely "learn by doing" with the caveat that spamming is somehow removed, such as was widely abused in crafting in previous builds. (Diminishing amounts of 'improvement' over a certain period of time after being attempted perhaps)

 

I prefer how wellness was advanced by eating food and using vitamins because it actually made sense in terms of survival and the setting of the game.

 

I prefer no level gates at all because you should have to invest time into a skill, and you will, if it is necessary to survive.

 

I prefer a high enough cap on levels so that you can max out your character. I endorse this theoretically but think the game needs to embrace survival and increase the death penalty harshly and the overall difficulty scaling for this to be legitimate. By allowing infinite levels, you can charge permanent removal of said levels upon death up to a complete character reset (after a bunch of deaths in a row). I liked it a lot that your wellness was permanently reduced upon death in previous iterations and want that back. I believe a combination of loss of wellness and skill levels would make a powerful motivator and bring some real tension back into the game. I've been playing self-imposed hardcore for years, because even the wellness tax felt like I wasn't being punished enough. The half a day point removal of A17 also has that temporary stigma to me. You die, you should have to earn 'em back the hard way.

[Guppycur]

NO it really didn't. I made the point several times over in that time. Don't throw that ♥♥♥♥ at me when you know very well that the only reason it has taken so long is the stubborness of others to not accept what is right in front of them.

 

You're the only one who has had to argue over and over again to make his point; but yeh, WE are the stubborn ones, lol!

 

Your communication skills are poor. You can either fix them, or stubbornly act like you didn't take 76 posts to finally communicate your point, arguing with a dozen people...

 

Hell, poor old exxodus had been nicely asking you for an example what, 5? 6? times before you gave one?

 

But yeh. It's ALL of us, not you. Lol.

[Exxodous]

In A16 your son could have the choice of just being trained in bladed weapons to do more damage, taking the knife guy perks to further increase damage and harvesting while decrease stam usage. And then also further specialising to increase dismemberment chance so he can crowd control zombies by crippling them (dismemberment isn't even in the game anymore). That is more specialised. Instead all he has is deep cuts.

He can't even become more specialised by having your crafter craft a high level weapon for him because item quality means nothing now.

 

He can still be trained in bladed weapons to do more damage, Deep cuts can increase decapitation, bleed damage (even on nearby Zeds). Things that were not possible to specialize at in A16. I know in A16 exploding head "just happened" and you must "earn" it now. Skull Crusher increases headshot damage too according to the description as it says "melee damage" (have not looked at the xml).

 

He can in fact become more specialized by having our crafter make high level weapons because higher quality does mean something. More mod slots and our crafter can make mods. Remember she specialized in INT.

 

So it seems in this scenario you hanging your whole argument on the removal of dismemberment? Something that although funny to watch didn't effect gameplay that much to me, especially since after level 3 in a weapons perk you start one shot killing the easier Zeds.

 

Ok you got me, you when they removed dismemberment. Game breaking....I know....

 

Is the bladed char less specialized? Guess I don't think so. I know you do. Again, opinions.

[meganoth]

He can't even become more specialised by having your crafter craft a high level weapon for him because item quality means nothing now.

 

So the 60 damage my lvl4 sledgehammer with 3 mods makes are an illusion and it still makes only 42 damage like my lvl1 sledgehammer? And the additional stun chance because of one of the mods means nothing as well?

[Roland]

So the 60 damage my lvl4 sledgehammer with 3 mods makes are an illusion and it still makes only 42 damage like my lvl1 sledgehammer? And the additional stun chance because of one of the mods means nothing as well?

 

Not to mention the emotional attachment you feel about the weapons you’ve modified over unmodified base weapons....