Perks System and Level Gates

[Ianua]

I'm gonna come out and lodge, what I believe to be, my first comment of dislike about the new level gates. I say this because I actually asked the hubby to mod them out finally. I tried to work around them by planning more carefully but it just wasn't working.

 

I think the new perk system of requiring more points as the level goes up is sufficient. This is spoken as the person that does almost totally intellect based items and only begrudgingly uses points for other perks. Another forum user asked me how high a level I typically get to playing, and I had to admit I don't usually get higher than 80 or so before we begin a new game. Perhaps that is why the level gates are such a bother to me, by the time I get close to that level, most of my gaming in that world is done.

 

I do agree that SP is a different kettle of fish and with the current system I am unlikely to try it since it is a much longer grind, and that isn't pleasant to me. Just my 2 cents Roland

[crazyduck]

Not to mention the emotional attachment you feel about the weapons you’ve modified over unmodified base weapons....

 

Oh this attachment was removed from the game with teh removal of Weapon Parts and Crafting Quality from Parts.

 

Adding some sort of Mod to a Gun or tool is funny but attachment to the tool or weapon nope not really.

 

Before yes sure all this Parts with different Quality and your search for better Parts to make this Gun slowly better and better.

 

Now Type 2 Gun fine add 2 Mods fine done oh ok we can change the Mods around but still not really something like before.

[Dunkurtin]

You're the only one who has had to argue over and over again to make his point; but yeh, WE are the stubborn ones, lol!

 

Your communication skills are poor. You can either fix them, or stubbornly act like you didn't take 76 posts to finally communicate your point, arguing with a dozen people...

 

Hell, poor old exxodus had been nicely asking you for an example what, 5? 6? times before you gave one?

 

But yeh. It's ALL of us, not you. Lol.

 

I literally just repeated the same point over without changing it and now you get it.

 

Being slow to understand something is not a reflection on the person who has the patience to continue explaining it.

 

This is how the conversation with the "it's not simple" camp goes at the moment.

 

Us: They removed A, B and C.

Them: But they added D.

[start loop]

Us: D has less content than A alone, not to mention B and C.

Them:...they added D!

[goto start]

 

It's brain numbingly tedious and a waste of energy.

[stasis78]

I vote for removing all level gates and experience at all. Make it based on days survived. You die on a day? Don’t get a level. You live a full day? Get one level.

 

Remove all the gating and experience points. Survive and thrive.

[BobTheBard]

So, the new perk system. Quite the point of contention. On the whole, I find I don't like it though. Here's why:

 

1) I dislike the way they're organized. While the idea of having 'stats' that govern particular 'perks' is common in games like Fallout (which is what I think this alpha was very heavily influenced by) it doesn't make much sense in a game like this. Skills you commonly use in the same playstyle tend to be spread across multiple stats, and not in an equal way, which means some playstyles - especially base-builders and treasure-hunters - require their points spread all over the place while others, especially combat characters, only need to focus on 1-2. This works in games like Fallout because you start out with points spread across multiple stats, which means you can easily enable a playstyle that needs multiple stats right from the beginning, but you can't do that in this game. This greatly handicaps multiple-stat builds without slowing down combat-lovers at all.

 

2) The level-gating. Some things are gated so high that by the time my friend and I are more or less operating with impunity we still don't have them unlocked. Now, this would be a bigger problem if not having those things actually mattered, but we've found that by the point we're at even getting steel doesn't even feel like an achievement. It's not meaningfully better than what we're already using for how long it took to get. Gone is the feeling of 'Hooray, steel! Let the games begin!' as it has been replaced with 'Steel, about ****ing time.' The fact that steel tools don't seem to be a big improvement over iron ones (I found a Q6 steel fire axe and I can't feel the difference between it and the Q4 iron one I've been using the last 60 levels) sucks all the achievement out of it. And everything else that can be made from steel unlocks way before steel itself does, and usually doesn't need steel to be repaired, so I can just harvest steel or buy it from traders and the end result of being able to make it is profoundly unsatisfying. This is all on top of the fact that we've resorted to actively luring screamers to our base and letting them howl their little lungs out just to farm experience so we can progress, which is less 'survival horror' and more 'MMO farming.' Even clearing PoIs has nothing on Screamageddon.

 

3) While there may be an increase in potential choice (I haven't run the numbers) there is a sharp decrease in practical choice. Some perks are so mandatory that you have to take them and some perks are so useless that you only take them if you want a challenge. Further, some stats are essential, some are sub-optimal, and there is significant optimization built in to the system which eliminates meaningful choice. As an example, eventually everybody is going to want a high Strength. Regardless of what you're doing or how you're playing Strength and some of its perks always help you. You dig faster, break things better, melee harder, carry more, and use less stamina while doing it. Strength becomes less of a choice and more of a requirement, it's just a matter of how much you take how quickly because you will eventually take it and will eventually max it. Now let's look at Intelligence. Everybody is going to want it, but almost everybody is going to rank it up to exactly the same point at exactly the same time every game. Since quality level is largely meaningless, crafting speed bonuses don't persist if you walk away from a crafting station, and most Intelligence skills either situational or effectively gated behind Hammer and Forge, you generally only want as much Intelligence as you need to grab the next level of Hammer and Forge and you want to get it as close to that point as possible because there is no other point to taking it, barring certain very specific trader-oriented builds. Finally, let's look at Agility. For my playstyle, and indeed for most of them, the most valuable thing you get from Agility is the bonus from taking points in Agility itself. Most of the perks aren't great for general use (the sneak perks are okay) because they either become redundant quickly (Rule 1 Cardio is obsolete the instant you get a bicycle) or actively make things harder (Melee is already damaging and janky enough without trying to use Charging Bull) that the only reason you bother taking Agility is to get more Stamina, and I'll be honest, I'm playing as a builder - the most Stamina-heavy build type - and I still don't feel the pain from having never invested in it at all because my activity is gated more by stamina recovery (which this doesn't help) than by maximum stamina. This means that SexRex, under Strength (which I already want for Mother Lode and Miner 69er), actually helps me with Stamina issues more than Agility does. Where's my motivation to invest in it early, or even at all?

 

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TL;DR version since I'm long-winded sometimes:

 

1) I don't like how the perks are organized and think it could be improved by orienting them more towards their intended role than making an arbitrary stat.

 

2) Some things are level-gated so high that by the time you unlock them you either don't need them or can't make good use of them because you've grown used to not having them. Steel is the best example.

 

3) The new perk system eliminates a lot of meaningful choice because there are strong incentives to optimize and several very obvious points of optimization.

[PoppaTot]

Not to mention the emotional attachment you feel about the weapons you’ve modified over unmodified base weapons....

 

LUL, the attachment is with the mods, not the weapon... EX: I have a level 4 Steel Fire Axe with wood slitter, dye, and ergonomic grip... Ohhhh, is that a level 6 one I just found?! Remove Mods from level 4 and insta-scrap lmao. I know it does no more greater damage, but it's level 6 lmao

[Roland]

LUL, the attachment is with the mods, not the weapon... EX: I have a level 4 Steel Fire Axe with wood slitter, dye, and ergonomic grip... Ohhhh, is that a level 6 one I just found?! Remove Mods from level 4 and insta-scrap lmao. I know it does no more greater damage, but it's level 6 lmao

 

I agree the emotional attachment would be stronger if mods weren’t removable. But then nobody would start attaching until they had level six gear.

[WolfyBlah]

I agree the emotional attachment would be stronger if mods weren’t removable. But then nobody would start attaching until they had level six gear.

 

I dont feel any attahement to mods, they are a lame addiation to the game thats not really added anything. most of them serve to be pure damage buffs (to get back up to values we had previously without them) or break mechanics (tempreture, stamina use).

Just another thing to micro manage and not even any fun as a result.

[Viktoriusiii]

I dont feel any attahement to mods, they are a lame addiation to the game thats not really added anything. most of them serve to be pure damage buffs (to get back up to values we had previously without them) or break mechanics (tempreture, stamina use).

Just another thing to micro manage and not even any fun as a result.

 

I do feel like mods are nice. They are what perks SHOULD have been...

Add something to specialize. If there were still gunparts, I'd love them. But they simply cant replace the complexity (and potential with barrel:accuracy, receiver:damage/firerate,magazine:shotfaultyness,parts:damage,durability)

 

So yeah same as with perks... they should have been ADDED to the existing system, not replacing them.

 

BUT I do think they are nice (do I want my sledgehammer to knock them down more or do more blockdamage? swing faster or less stamina?) There currently are way too few mods, but the baseidea is awesome.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I agree the emotional attachment would be stronger if mods weren’t removable. But then nobody would start attaching until they had level six gear.

 

not to mention it makes 0 sense not beeing able to remove a silencer.

Though I would like colormods and stuff like ragged blade, short barrel and so on to be permanent.

[Roland]

I dont feel any attahement to mods, they are a lame addiation to the game thats not really added anything. most of them serve to be pure damage buffs (to get back up to values we had previously without them) or break mechanics (tempreture, stamina use).

Just another thing to micro manage and not even any fun as a result.

 

Thank you for your feedback. I wouldn’t call sticking a mod onto a gun tedious micro-management but I understand everyone has different thresholds.

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

After playing for a while, I decided to vote. The vote actually surprised me in how I preferred a lot from A16 despite enjoying A17. I do prefer being able to advance skills by using them, I do like wellness being tied to what I eat and drink, and I also like the ability to max out a character though it should take a LOT of work to do so. On the flip side, I like the new system as well!

 

To begin, I liked advancing specific skills by using them. I also like our new system for learning by unlocking. However, both of these can exist together and work WAY better than gates. For example, advance strength by using strength-related skills or doing strength-related activities. To unlock a specific skill you need a specific strength, meaning you need to work out enough to advance strength enough to be allowed to unlock whatever skill it is. Do not allow points to be spent in the core strength skill. This could be applied to ANY current branch (intelligence, perception, etc) and will gate skills only based on how much the core skill is used, allowing players to progress their play-style rapidly instead of grinding.

 

Next, I just don't feel right magically unlocking more health and stamina. I liked the wellness system. Maybe we could find some way of using perks and proper food to deal with wellness?

 

I also like being able to max out a character, but I also believe that it should be far more difficult to level up tot hat max than it should be to level to the current cap. This would both drive longer gameplay and allow those of us without large groups to actually play late game.

 

Finally, I realized my biggest gripe with the new system. When I unlock some skill I just instantly know how to build and repair stuff, such as firearms. That's silly and easy at the same time. I really enjoyed the challenge of finding books to learn from. That isn't to say we couldn't easily do both. We could require the player to find a book on pistols to know how to build and maintain them, and once the book has been read perks are then available for us to unlock which allow us to refine our skills by making better quality parts or reducing wear, increasing accuracy, etc. It just doesn't sit well with me that I can wake up knowing how to do some crazy advanced stuff one morning.

 

Oh, and on a side-note, steel-cased rounds do not wear down barrels. I own many pistols, rifles, and other things. I shoot brass and steel rounds. The steel is on the casing, which does not fly down the barrel. The bullet goes down the barrel and is the same as a brass-cased bullet. If the steel casings WERE to wear anything out, it should be the extractor claw and possibly the receiver. No, this is not a complaint, it just blew my mind when I read the description for the new steel-cased rounds in-game.

[HungryZombie]

I dont feel any attahement to mods, they are a lame addiation to the game thats not really added anything. most of them serve to be pure damage buffs (to get back up to values we had previously without them) or break mechanics (tempreture, stamina use).

Just another thing to micro manage and not even any fun as a result.

 

If the mods are too much to micro manage you must have really hated the gun parts in A16.

[WolfyBlah]

If the mods are too much to micro manage you must have really hated the gun parts in A16.

 

Thats apples to oranges, gun parts was a hell of a lot more fun than attaching a laser sight to my pickaxe so mining isnt a chore.

 

And its not the extra things to micro manage thats unfun. Its needing to go out and loot a single use item so my pickaxe actually works well, fine with mods as an ADDition to the game, not fine with with tools and weapons being ♥♥♥♥ without them (forced).

[Apeolis]

Yeah, after playing alpha 17 for about 10 hours I've come to the conclusion that I really don't like the current exp/skill system.

 

I saw a lot of posts about people looting for hours without finding a recipe book that they needed for something, while others had found those same books in the first minutes of their games. Frustrating, yes. Simple chance and luck, yes. But it forced you to explore and loot, to search for those schools and libraries.

 

You wanted to get better at something, you went out and did that, armour, weapons, tools, crafting. Grindy, repetitive, sometimes felt like a chore. Still, you slowly improved and it could be tremendous fun nonetheless.

 

Wellness and health. I loved the fact that you needed to invest time and resources to gain health and stamina. Not to simply put a point into a relevant category.

 

All in all, I much preferred the previous system, despite it's shortcomings and potential for someone having a OP kind of luck. I would make skills improve at use and at the same time consolidate some of them into larger groups, like putting all melee weapons into one skill, with ranged weapons a second.

Then I would give 1 skill point per level gained and that could be used to buy a perk, like miner 69er or special combat skills for example.

And I would put all recipes into books to be found as loot or bought from traders.

[FringeRecall]

@Roland, it looks like you spend the time to read nearly everything. For that, thank you and be careful not to do what most do in positions of wanting to be as kind and helpful as possible ... and that's "burn out". Have done it myself in several instances...

 

I've cast my votes. Thank you for the poll. I now have over 150 hours into A17 and several hundred into A16.

 

The most important thing, no matter what changes are made to 'vanilla', however is that the mod aspects have the absolute most available options, functions and features in order to allow for the greatest diversity for those who create the mods. I'm getting into this myself now because I've been modding a17 into some kind of hybrid between 16 and 17 (bringing back some of the things I really liked and adding new things as well). I just hope now that I'm putting in all this work that a17 doesn't change so much that my mod needs a complete overhaul before I finish the overhaul I'm already doing lol.

 

As an addition, I really do miss being able to inter-change parts to make a better weapon or tool. It was fun to keep searching for that missing piece!