New perk system

[Soridar]

The devs are going to make their game and call it done at some point. Modders are going to do their thing. Tons of people will look at that as enriching and feel gratitude to both TFP and the modders. Tons of other people are going to look at the same thing and see it as completing and feel resentment and disappointment for TFP and gratitude to the modders.

 

Whatever.

 

I have to disagree, and I will point to Bethesda as for why I do. Looking at any (well almost any) Elder Scrolls series game, and the Fallout series, you will see that there are pro vanilla and pro modders, but all in all, you will find a vast majority of players really loved both. The base games were massively entertaining, and once you played them through once, twice, ten times, many of us ended up modding them to the heavens and back. Though every player I have even known to play any of those games, always tend to go back and play the base game. They might do so with a graphics mod, or a basic inventory mod, but in the end, play the game in it's base form with only cosmetic changes at most.

 

I see 7D2D being just that kind of game. There is plenty that TFP can do to make vanilla just as addictive and enthralling as other modifiable games, and from the efforts that the modding community have already done, it is easy to see them continuing to do the same.

[JCrook1028]

Are they though? Can you show me a video where these things are showcased?

 

I've only seen talk.

 

So sorry but I am not going to go thru and timestamp every video/link and quote every forum Dev's post (which for example is where Faatal said he has fixed the sleeper respawn mechanic). If you care to learn the info is there. If you see/read the info from the devs and simply do not believe them that is on you, it does not invalidate the info.

[Death2gnomes]

If you have played EQ1 then you know that most skills (like all combat, casting, or language ones) are leveled by running a macro and going AFK overnight.

A most innovative and exciting way to play a game.

 

Oh I see you must have been a WoW fanboi, that explains the EQ bashing.

 

That really wasnt the point and you know it! Skill increases didnt directly give you experience points. After how many YEARS of gaining levels in various ways and (bad) habits, its changed for the worse and people dont like it. That doesnt mean we can't get used to the new system, it does mean 7d has lost a major factor that made it so awesomely immersive and if it doesnt work for me, it just mean I'll have to find something that does.

[Pille]

Arcady because there is no connection between XP you're getting and skill you're gaining from it.

Also, many perks are arcady as well. In a survival game you shouldn't be able to shrug off diseases, you should struggle and deal with them.

 

I disagree with your first statement. As I said, some of the best and deepest games use this system. It's everything but arcady. Uncoupling the XP from the skills is a brilliant concept because it allows you to do what you want to do and to be who you want to be without any restrictions (as Gazz already stated).

 

However, I can agree with what you and others have said about certain perks. They should not weaken but support the survival gameplay. So some of them should be reconsidered... Anyway, there will be another iteration of the perk system before the game release, right?

[Gazz]

Oh I see you must have been a WoW fanboi, that explains the EQ bashing.

I played EQ for over 10 years and that's exactly how skill leveling worked in that game.

 

Sure, you could level them "naturally"... if you didn't care about being any useful.

[Roland]

I have to disagree, and I will point to Bethesda as for why I do. Looking at any (well almost any) Elder Scrolls series game, and the Fallout series, you will see that there are pro vanilla and pro modders, but all in all, you will find a vast majority of players really loved both. The base games were massively entertaining, and once you played them through once, twice, ten times, many of us ended up modding them to the heavens and back. Though every player I have even known to play any of those games, always tend to go back and play the base game. They might do so with a graphics mod, or a basic inventory mod, but in the end, play the game in it's base form with only cosmetic changes at most.

 

I see 7D2D being just that kind of game. There is plenty that TFP can do to make vanilla just as addictive and enthralling as other modifiable games, and from the efforts that the modding community have already done, it is easy to see them continuing to do the same.

 

You missed my point and nothing you posted refutes what I said. You just showed me that you are in the category of players that appreciates the work Bethesda did and see modders as enhancing their work. I bet I can find players who were unsatisfied with the Elder Scroll series and will say that Bethesda was lazy and fell short but thank God there were modders to save it and make it great.

 

I wasn't saying that TFP wouldn't reach the potential that the vanilla game has going for it. I absolutely believe they will. I also believe that there will be players that will look at that offering and say that the devs failed and the modders had to save it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are precious few who can appreciate work well done when that work is contrary to their own personal preferences. Instead, those people will just say that the wrong road was taken, the devs were too lazy to do it right, and only the modders were able to save it.

 

Its the same with Bethesda and their games. You can't please everyone and not everyone can see beyond their own nose when it comes to showing appreciation.

[Roland]

I disagree with your first statement. As I said, some of the best and deepest games use this system. It's everything but arcady. Uncoupling the XP from the skills is a brilliant concept because it allows you to do what you want to do and to be who you want to be without any restrictions (as Gazz already stated).

 

Agreed. People can think of it as sandbox xp progression. If you want to find the most efficient way to gain xp and only do that activity repetitively for days in the game to rush the progression you can do that. In that case digging sand will magically make you better at getting head shots that result in decapitations. That is your choice to play the game that way.

 

If you want to just play the game holistically doing what comes naturally so that you are killing, and mining, and building, and crafting, and trading, and farming, and chopping, and scavenging then the points will feel like a distillation of all your activities and spending them to emphasize aspects of your activities will feel more natural. That is your choice to play the game that way.

 

If you want to play so that the process feels like learning by doing then you absolutely do some repetitive action in that category before spending the point in order to fully roleplay and immerse yourself into the game. So if you have a point to spend and you want to spend it in improving accuracy in archery then go and shoot 100 arrows at a target and once done spend the point on the perk that increases your accuracy. If you want to spend a perk point on recipes go bake a 100 cornbread and then spend the point on recipes. If you want to increase your melee damage then go hit 100 zombies with a club and then spend the point on that. That is your choice to play the game that way.

 

It's a progression sandbox and the current system supports the player in doing whatever feels right to them. Min/max focused grinding with zero immersion or connection to how points are earned and spent all the way to full roleplaying centered on learning by doing or anywhere on that spectrum you want to reside is possible. Your choice.

 

However, I can agree with what you and others have said about certain perks. They should not weaken but support the survival gameplay. So some of them should be reconsidered... Anyway, there will be another iteration of the perk system before the game release, right?

 

Madmole has mentioned in the dev chat that he will be watching for reactions and feedback on perks from the players. He isn't married to every perk on the list and I'm sure there will be adjustments. He has also said that this iteration is the one that will be shipped so it won't be overhauled again. Just adjustments. The good news is that adding and subtracting and editing perks in the lists is super simple now.

[Death2gnomes]

I played EQ for over 10 years and that's exactly how skill leveling worked in that game.

 

Sure, you could level them "naturally"... if you didn't care about being any useful.

 

LOL Never said you didnt, but you didnt deny being the fanboi either! ;p

 

Im a fan of earned skills that mean something, not for gaining experience, like spamming Stone shovels. How those skills are earned should have been addressed a long ass time ago, prior to a16.

[Tin]

One thing I would find pretty neat is having "hidden perks" get exposed as you cap certain perk combinations.

Give the player a sense of further accomplishment, other than just capping out an area.

 

edit: banking off of Gamida's sug in the dev diaries.

[Numberz]

Madmole has mentioned in the dev chat that he will be watching for reactions and feedback on perks from the players. He isn't married to every perk on the list and I'm sure there will be adjustments. He has also said that this iteration is the one that will be shipped so it won't be overhauled again. Just adjustments. The good news is that adding and subtracting and editing perks in the lists is super simple now.

 

Adding and subtracting perks was always super simple. This functionality was in A16. In any case, that is not the issue.

 

What people are expressing concern over is that so many of the mechanics and systems (player/action/crafting skills, book reading, assembly mechanics, repair ?, durability ?, quality levels) are being removed or severely curtailed. The only core system affecting player progression which appears to be left standing is a very static, linear system that one person here described as whack a perk.

 

Essentially, modders are being asked to limit their work to what I would call ancillary systems like buffs, POIs, zombie archtypes and this is what I find discouraging. Of course, perks can be modded as well ... but the core system behind the perks remains one which is static, linear, and limiting in nature.

 

Believe me, I hope I am wrong... after all, we certainly haven't seen everything... but I don't think I am.

[ravend]

One thing I would find pretty neat is having "hidden perks" get exposed as you cap certain perk combinations.

Give the player a sense of further accomplishment, other than just capping out an area.

 

edit: banking off of Gamida's sug in the dev diaries.

 

Like capping out agi and uncovering "leg day", to run faster. (Borrowed the idea from another post, loved the idea).

[Tin]

Like capping out agi and uncovering "leg day", to run faster. (Borrowed the idea from another post, loved the idea).

 

Yeah, I like the idea of having these unique perks but also having them hidden till you meet the requirements. Just something a little extra and then some. They could also be turned into achievements as well, for those that like that sort of thing. Give those completionist types, that are driven to have/do everything, something to strive for.

[Roland]

Adding and subtracting perks was always super simple. This functionality was in A16. In any case, that is not the issue.

 

The functionality of A17 is lightyears beyond A16.

 

What people are expressing concern over is that so many of the mechanics and systems (player/action/crafting skills, book reading, assembly mechanics, repair ?, durability ?, quality levels) are being removed or severely curtailed. The only core system affecting player progression which appears to be left standing is a very static, linear system that one person here described as whack a perk.

 

player/action/crafting skills meaning (I take it) learning by doing is indeed gone as forced game mechanic. But you can still simulate it voluntarily if it is critical to immersion. Nothing forces you to only kill zombies and then spend those earned points to become a better farmer. You do earn xp for farming so you could do that and earn points and then spend it on farming. The only thing that would stop you from doing that is a desire to min/max for rapid xp. Most laughable are the examples given of how "digging sand somehow magically makes the player a better sharp shooter". Laughable because good and rapid xp gains are available from shooting zombies so the player could spend time earning xp by shooting zombies and then spend the points to be a better sharpshooter. If learning by doing is so desirable then why don't these people play the game that way when the ability is right in front of them? The answer is obviously that they love something else more...efficiency and endgame rush.

 

Book Reading: Books will still play a role in the game. Book reading was always stated to be a placeholder mechanic.

 

Assembly mechanic: Used for attaching mods which are being expanded from weapons to vehicles, tools, and clothing. Instead of the same five components always making essentially the same pistol with the only differentiation being damage and durability, now there are going to be dozens and eventually hundreds of components turning a pistol into markedly different weapons being differentiated by damage, reload speed, magazine size, fire rate, accuracy, spread, fall off rate, and even color. But that's not all. You can have mods that will do things like restore stamina as you use the weapons using them. The whole process of attaching mods works exactly like the assmebly mechanic did. So really its like the assembly mechanic got a huge shot in the arm.

 

Repair: Repair is still in the game. It hasn't been curtailed or removed. Once it is fully implemented it should be a deeper mechanic than it ever was before making it a choice between doing field repairs immediately or wait and do careful repairs at a workstation.

 

Durability: Still in the game.

 

Quality: Still in the game with the same exact number of levels. Quality in A16 was just a difference in durability and damage. Quality in A17 will be so much more with mod slots.

 

 

Essentially, modders are being asked to limit their work to what I would call ancillary systems like buffs, POIs, zombie archtypes and this is what I find discouraging. Of course, perks can be modded as well ... but the core system behind the perks remains one which is static, linear, and limiting in nature. Believe me, I hope I am wrong... after all, we certainly haven't seen everything... but I don't think I am.

 

Not only have you not seen everything you haven't seen even a fraction and you are making a lot of false assumptions. If you truly hope to be wrong then let me support you in your hope. Modders will be very pleased. They won't be complaining about some little box they've been placed in with lots of secondhand toys to play with. They will be oohing and aahing at the vast new world ahead of them.

[toores]

I disagree with your first statement. As I said, some of the best and deepest games use this system. It's everything but arcady. Uncoupling the XP from the skills is a brilliant concept because it allows you to do what you want to do and to be who you want to be without any restrictions (as Gazz already stated).

 

I'm quoting myself from another thread:

 

The idea is to get people playing as they would and just assing points to reflect what kind of character they would like to be. Ok, let's say I want to play sneaky guy who won't wake up zombies and kills them in their sleep or avoids them completely.

What is the likelyhood of me spending my points on improve sneaking right from the start (when it makes the biggest difference) if I have character: without stamina, with small backpack, with only one crafting slot, does laughable damage, can't craft no wokrstations or iron stuff??....

 

On the other hand, when we would have skill system where you can't buy skills but advance them while using, you would become sneaky character by sneaking around zombies. You would start doing it from the very beginning.

 

Getting XP from anything and spending it on anything is definitely more arcady then having specific survival problems that can be solved by specific action that advance specific skills. The same way Fallout 4 is more arcady than 7d2d A16.

[RestInPieces]

I would still love a reply from Gazz and Roland. Gazz can you at least please comment on the question in page 4 that both me and the biker dude are curious about and leave EQ alone?

[Roland]

I would still love a reply from Gazz and Roland. Gazz can you at least please comment on the question in page 4 that both me and the biker dude are curious about and leave EQ alone?

 

I went to page 4 and I just want to know: Which question? What biker dude?

[ktr]

As much as I love the idea of leveling/increasing skills by 'doing', the games that I've played that attempt it always have some glaring holes. Spam crafting, I think, was one of the biggest offenders in 7 Days 2 Die. I didn't bother with spam crafting until the slow leveling of tools and armor started to really hinder how I played the game. It just took too long, for me, to get my tools and armor to a decent level if I didn't use some spam crafting. There were a few other skills that I noticed would seriously lag behind if you didn't 'cheat'.

 

1.) Arrow damage. I always noticed this one within about two weeks of game play. Increasing arrow damage required so many arrows/bolts fired that it's overall damage several lagged behind gamestage (I'm a pretty cautious player, so I tend to not die a lot.) Sitting in base at night and launching stack after stack of arrows started to feel like the only way I'd see any real advancement.

 

2.) Armor damage negation. Again, I'm pretty cautious and don't get hit a lot, which worked just fine until a pack of dogs snuck up on me (damn stealth dogs) and my armor couldn't absorb as much damage. Having a skill rest on taking damage in a zombie game where avoiding them is also a huge part of the game is counter intuitive and penalizing.

 

3.) Generally speaking, I found that a lot of the skills plateaued at a certain point, meaning progress on them really lagged unless you, for example, played whack a box with a club.

 

None of that would have bothered me too much except I'd often find myself at a high gamestage and just getting overrun without some grinding to even things out. Part of it was likely my playstyle. I love to build and would play a single map for a long time before restarting and I was never a fan of the 'eat glass' method of lowering a gamestage!

 

So, while overall I hate to see it go, because I really do love the concept, I can understand where that kind of system is also far more difficult to balance and can have some pretty heavy unintended consequences. As for the new system, I reserving too many opinions until I play it and see how it works. If it is such where leveling mostly stays in the background and then I spend skill points when I want, then I'll probably enjoy it.

[meganoth]

I

Getting XP from anything and spending it on anything is definitely more arcady then having specific survival problems that can be solved by specific action that advance specific skills. The same way Fallout 4 is more arcady than 7d2d A16.

 

"arcady" isn't a well defined word. To me arcady means "games focused on frantic action without much pause, reaction-speed is essential", I don't think this is what you meant.

 

Your stealth example is a really bad example for what you want to demonstrate because it didn't and couldn't work in A16 with a learning-by-doing approach. If A16 had a stealth skill you would have to get skill-XP for stealthing around. No game I know of ever did it that way, that's would be a nightmare to implement. Games with stealth (like the Thief series) gave XP only for completed missions/objectives/quests, not for stealthing around and not for killing someone.

 

Since A16 and A17 both give XP for killing zombies, stealth didn't work in A16 as a specialization and it won't completely work in A17 either. It will work if you use stealth just as a way to make critical hits to zombies by killing them from stealth, but it will not give you comparable progress if you try to avoid all zombies.

[Jedo]

Your stealth example is a really bad example for what you want to demonstrate because it didn't and couldn't work in A16 with a learning-by-doing approach. If A16 had a stealth skill you would have to get skill-XP for stealthing around. No game I know of ever did it that way, that's would be a nightmare to implement. Games with stealth (like the Thief series) gave XP only for completed missions/objectives/quests, not for stealthing around and not for killing someone.

 

Bethesda games (Elder Scrolls and Fallout)? They do give xp for stealthing without killing. Either that's not the same thing that you mean or you have no interest in Bethesda games. (Maybe it just slipped your mind, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.)

[meganoth]

Bethesda games (Elder Scrolls and Fallout)? They do give xp for stealthing without killing. Either that's not the same thing that you mean or you have no interest in Bethesda games. (Maybe it just slipped your mind, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.)

 

Oh, didn't know. I only ever played Morrowind a bit and Fallout 3 for a long time (without noticing I get xp from sneaking). How do they do it? Is it enough to just move around while sneaking? Or do you need to be near enemies?

 

The former would make exploiting it fairly trivial, the latter would be better. Maybe even for 7D2D if the program checks for zombies if they could potentially reach you before you gain xp. Otherwise (in PvP) a player could get advantages through building an "XP cage".

[lug]

Roland said: " I went to page 4 and I just want to know: Which question? What biker dude? "

 

pretty sure he means Jax, and they want to know if xp can be earned in ways other than killing zeds.

 

hope i didn't misinterpret you, RIP

[quixe]

??????? Harvesting, mining, scavenging/looting, building. killing zombies ALL give XP. In A16 digging sand was by far the fastest way to level..

 

Yes it does. A18 doesn't look like it will though since everything is perk based Seems more like the focus will be killing bandits/zombies to level up since there's no skills to build except through level ups and perks. See my "going from Morrowind to Fallout 4" comment.

[Jedo]

Oh, didn't know. I only ever played Morrowind a bit and Fallout 3 for a long time (without noticing I get xp from sneaking). How do they do it? Is it enough to just move around while sneaking? Or do you need to be near enemies?

 

The former would make exploiting it fairly trivial, the latter would be better. Maybe even for 7D2D if the program checks for zombies if they could potentially reach you before you gain xp. Otherwise (in PvP) a player could get advantages through building an "XP cage".

 

I'm pretty sure there has to be an enemy within a certain radius, and you might even have to be moving (rather than just crouching in a corner).

[RestInPieces]

I went to page 4 and I just want to know: Which question? What biker dude?

 

My first post on page 4 for Gazz and the post in page 5 for you. Jax. Haven't you watched sons of anarchy? pfff

[Roland]

My first post on page 4 for Gazz and the post in page 5 for you. Jax. Haven't you watched sons of anarchy? pfff

 

Yes there are still other ways to earn xp although they are looking at this so some things might end up being different than A16. You should be able to earn xp by mining, building (upgrading blocks), chopping down trees, killing zombies, killing animals, and farming (harvesting the fruits of your labor). They are talking about doing some sort of crafting xp that would give diminishing returns so that spam crafting wouldn't return but that is not for sure. Things like walking and jumping that used to increase your athletic skill is gone-- no xp gains from walking and jumping. Scavenging (opening containers) and trading are on the bubble so those might stay or go.

 

Right now punching grass is granting xp but Joel wants that to be gone so I'm sorry to tell all the people who liked organically increasing their skills through yardwork. It's over.

 

Guys, the best way to effect change is to play and then to give reasonable and friendly feedback about what you think should be different and why. The Pimps do listen and they do make changes and experiment and they are planning to experiment with all of you as their guinea pigs to see what perks are popular whether people feel their characters are getting OP too fast or too slowly. They aren't going to listen to rants. I know people who like to rant like to say that all feedback is good and TFP should listen to their rants. The reality, though, is that if you really care about the changes you want then you better learn to phrase them in a friendly and helpful manner or its just wasted effort.