Underground Threats & More

[Crater Creator]

Yes; put the most desirable option at the top and the least desirable option at the bottom. It's a little confusing in retrospect when you see the results as a bar graph, since the shortest bar is better.

[eidobunny]

I strongly dislike the idea of worms, I definitely want to be able to be in a room and not be at risk of suddenly dying if I step away from my computer to go to the bathroom or get a bite to eat. With digger zombies or breadcrumb zombies, at least I can hear them coming to attack me and have my walls to buffer said attack until I get back in the game.

 

I do really like the idea of ventilation being required. I really really think that's a phenomenal idea and it would be really good for PvP as well, forcing players to give a tell that they have an underground base in the area. Also the management of such a base and the technology and effort required would be an adequate challenge to establish.

 

Flooding sounds awful. Insanity sounds awful as well. Sometimes I like walking away from my computer for a bit and I don't want to be punished for just existing underground. Breadcrumbs is a good alternative because I would be able to pre-emptively build defenses as I tunnel so if I walk away the threat doesn't actively harm me. Sentry zombies are also great because getting out is half the battle sometimes.

[meganoth]

Yes; put the most desirable option at the top and the least desirable option at the bottom. It's a little confusing in retrospect when you see the results as a bar graph, since the shortest bar is better.

 

Also a small disadvantage of the poll: In the polls where you have to sort the options from most to least desirable, if you like no option or find just one option acceptable and don't like everything else, what do you do? I just put that one option as most desirable (even though I only was lukewarm about the idea) and set nothing for the rest. Which didn't do what I hoped.

[Blake_]

Along with diggers and regarding this subject I must approve and say that...:

 

Worms, slimes, radiated zombie cockroaches, I dont care exactly what, but that is a very good idea along with hazardous environmental conditions (rad, poison, lava, etc). Of course a worm needs to SPAM in at least 1 hollow block and only next to terrain blocks underground with poor light conditions ( said blocks are for example: ores,stone,dirt, grass dirt , superduperclowndirt, cowboydirt ... etc); also, It should only go through said terrain blocks to avoid extra surprises. I can see it boys. I can feel it. Worms, cockroaches, slimy faatalistic radiated AI ants coming to get us. Cool.

[The Batman]

Have everything below -10 blocks from surface have radiated ground + bad air flow.

 

--> Building lower than -10 would require radiation gear + large rooms would require air vents.

 

In the end game you can think of other stuff to bother the player. But like Roland said. Once you build that bunker below ground. It should be pretty safe. However a giant base underground with crops and what not should face some difficulties.

[toores]

Yes; put the most desirable option at the top and the least desirable option at the bottom. It's a little confusing in retrospect when you see the results as a bar graph, since the shortest bar is better.

 

Could the results be tainted by "skipping" the longer ranking parts of the poll and submitting the initial order?

[canadianbluebeer]

The first question really had no answer for me.

 

I'm underground during blood moon now, but, at the bottom of a drop pit.

So, they come fall in the hole, and get blasted. Yes, it's a TRAP!

 

Too much fun to be had during that time to just hide from it.

(If I wanted that, I'd just play in creative mode with no zombies and be done with it)

 

Otherwise, good poll.

[Crater Creator]

Could the results be tainted by "skipping" the longer ranking parts of the poll and submitting the initial order?

 

It’s a pretty smart system. It recognizes if a question is skipped. Even partially completed answers are unlikely to skew the results in one direction more than others, because the answers are presented in a random order.

[Crater Creator]

Also a small disadvantage of the poll: In the polls where you have to sort the options from most to least desirable, if you like no option or find just one option acceptable and don't like everything else, what do you do? I just put that one option as most desirable (even though I only was lukewarm about the idea) and set nothing for the rest. Which didn't do what I hoped.

 

Well, I’ll level with you... a free account has its limits, including a limit of 10 questions per survey. So this was designed the way it was in part to stuff a lot of ideas into a few questions.

[meganoth]

Have everything below -10 blocks from surface have radiated ground + bad air flow.

 

--> Building lower than -10 would require radiation gear + large rooms would require air vents.

 

In the end game you can think of other stuff to bother the player. But like Roland said. Once you build that bunker below ground. It should be pretty safe. However a giant base underground with crops and what not should face some difficulties.

 

Ok, I still don't get what the draw behind environmental dangers is. Could you explain where you see the fun in this? This really sounds like "bother", i.e. things to annoy the player, not to entertain him. What is your reason to want this?

 

Well, I’ll level with you... a free account has its limits, including a limit of 10 questions per survey. So this was designed the way it was in part to stuff a lot of ideas into a few questions.

 

Fair enough.

[Tin]

Ok, I still don't get what the draw behind environmental dangers is. Could you explain where you see the fun in this? This really sounds like "bother", i.e. things to annoy the player, not to entertain him. What is your reason to want this?

 

IDK seems like a basic tenet in survival games..

Overcoming the odds even if they're in harsh conditions and are still able to thrive.

Much like some ppl think the diggers will be annoying, it's just preference on what they would like too see.

Entertainment/ Annoyance, Challenge/ Tedium, varies from person to person like with anything.

Probably the same reason ppl want to have the underground biomes = the above biomes in terms of a challenge to overcome.

Is it so different than ppl wanting to stay in the desert or snow biome or wasteland?

 

Edit: Not being confrontational. Just stating why I would like it as well and the reason why.

[Bolo_Nike]

Honestly I would like to see the Environmental hazards if nothing else. Even Minecraft had it right when it says don't dig straight down! Plus visions of mining Iron ore right next to a gas pocket.... tink... tink... tin..BOOM!!!

 

 

Other than that I would love to see gate crashers, sleepers, and auger bandits!!

.......in a sense we already have the sleeper system set up in the graveyard.......

 

 

Oh and don't forget the other crazy people who built bunkers to survive the fallout

....maybe even a vault or two...? (please don't get sued......)

 

 

Finally thanks to Crater for the fantastic recap as Roland said!!!

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Well, I filled in the survey, but I suppose I'd better re-iterate my position as I have on previous threads. I'll keep it short and bullet-pointed, this time.

 

• There are basically three types of zombies: (a) random wandering ones, (b) random hordes aimed at your location, © blood moon hordes that home in on you wherever you go.
  
• Type (a) zombies are no problem - they'll go for you if they see you, but they're not likely to damage your base.
  
• Type © zombies are no problem either - you can leave your normal base on a blood moon night and go to a separate "horde defense base" that you've prepared.
  
• It's the type (b) zombies that are the problem - they're the reason I build underground.
  
• I play the "normal" cycle of being out and about (looting, scavenging, exploring) during the day, and retreating back to the base at night for crafting and cooking.
  
• During the day, the type (b) zombies are fine. You're moving around, and they may or may not encounter you - and if they do you can fight them or avoid them as you please.
  
• But during the night, type (b) zombies head straight for your base because that's where you are. Unfortunately, the AI is such that even if they don't detect you they'll still start smashing your base up when it blocks their path and destroying your defenses.
  
• Therefore, even though you're not in any real danger from type (b) zombies at night, they are a pain in the arse because they make you have to spend time doing tedious resource gathering and repair work every day.
  
• I'd rather spend time doing fun things than tedious repair work, so I build an underground base that type (b) zombies will walk straight over/past during the night and they won't damage it because it doesn't get in their way.

 

So that's my reason for building underground, and any "solution" to the non-existent "problem" of people building underground that stops me from doing that isn't going to be one I'd support.

[meganoth]

IDK seems like a basic tenet in survival games..

Overcoming the odds even if they're in harsh conditions and are still able to thrive.

Much like some ppl think the diggers will be annoying, it's just preference on what they would like too see.

Entertainment/ Annoyance, Challenge/ Tedium, varies from person to person like with anything.

Probably the same reason ppl want to have the underground biomes = the above biomes in terms of a challenge to overcome.

Is it so different than ppl wanting to stay in the desert or snow biome or wasteland?

 

Edit: Not being confrontational. Just stating why I would like it as well and the reason why.

 

I don't see any confrontation. I asked, you answered. In very general terms though.

 

If you think you would like to play "Building lower than -10 would require radiation gear + large rooms would require air vents", why? Concretely. I can explain why I would like sleeper zombies underground, should you ask. I can tell you the situations I assume will happen and what the "fun" is in these situations. Such reasoning should be possible for you or The Batman too. I probably will not share the sentiment but still "get it".

 

Just so you understand my problem, I haven't heard anyone here in the forum say that he likes switching between leather poncho and puffer coat as a fun or fullfilling or interesting activity. Isn't it universally hated? Now, changing into radiation gear every time you go deeper than -10 sounds like exactly the same. Is there anything appealing about that idea that the weather system is missing?

[eidobunny]

I think requiring ventilation is a great environmental hazard. It serves as a progression gate to creating a perfect safe base with just a shovel and a few minutes. It serves as a potential base-building and design challenge that builders and planners would find exciting. It's realistic - look at all the problems miners had for hundreds of years with noxious gases and lack of oxygen and cave-ins. Yes it's important that we don't confuse "interesting" with "fun" by making a bunch of "interesting" features that aren't fun, but I see ventilation technology as both interesting AND fun as well as practical to encourage a variety of playstyles other than the default "just hide underground and you're 100% safe." It also gives players more reason to go to the cities to loot for parts to create ventilation. It could be a whole new facet of electronics even!

 

It's like a natural progression of base-building, like a drawbridge over your moat instead of a landbridge. It would gate every shmuck from immediately building deep underground, and it would incidentally make PvP more interesting as designers would have to plan how to hide the telltale signs of ventilation. Expert sleuths would have fun trying to locate such bases, compared to how the game is now where detective work is less feasible. (It used to be more feasible when the sound radii was much larger).

 

I only see bonuses from requiring ventilation for deep bases. Now radiation suits I could do without. I agree with meganoth that micromanaging my clothes is not fun.

[caatalyst]

I'm surprised that the sentry and breadcrumbs points didn't get more love. Those a long with squeezing worms and environmental challenges are the best in my opinion as none of them should cause swiss cheese hell but will still make underground game play so much more interesting.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Having established my position, and with the awareness that my "none of the above" preference isn't viable - but it does mean that my thinking is along the lines of "which of these is least objectionable" rather than "which of these is most fun"...

 

• A1 (Digger Z) - If the wandering hordes didn't come at night, this wouldn't be too bad; since it would only really affect blood moon nights (and you can spend them away from your base). With the wandering hordes as they are now, it's a terrible idea because every single night your base will get trashed and need rebuilding.
  
• A2 (Digger Non-Z) - Less bad than A1, since it will only be the dog hordes that trash your base, so it won't happen every night. Still pretty annoying when it starts raining dogs on you though.
  
• A3 (Filler) - In the absence of diggers, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
  
• A4 (Sleeper) - This is a bit all-or-nothing. Put your base in the right place (not near any hidden underground sleepers) and you're fine. Put it in the wrong place and you'll have to put it somewhere else instead because they'll keep respawning. Not terrible, I don't suppose, but still annoying when it happens.
  
• A5 (Sentry) - Of all the 'A' options, this is the least bad. In fact this is the only one that I think would be a net positive for the game.
  
• A6 (Gate Crashers) - Isn't that already the case? I thought zombies already attacked hatches.
  
• A7 (Worms) - From a genre point of view it gets a big no; but from a gameplay point of view it's less bad than diggers because they can't be followed by the rest of the horde.
  
• A8 (Bread Crumbs) - Would have to be combined with one or more other options, and would amplify the effect of the other option for good or ill (mostly ill).

 

• B1 (Ventilation) - Providing you've enough air to go down to your bunker at dusk and come back up at dawn, not a problem. If you don't get that much air, it would be terrible.
  
• B2 (Flooding) - This would depend heavily on how it was implemented. It could range from a good thing (giving you a free water source) to terrible (makling underground unplayable).
  
• B3 (Localised Hazards) - Like A4 this would be all-or-nothing. Go too close to a hazard and you have to put your base somewhere else. Don't go too close, and you're fine. Again, annoying but something I could live with.
  
• B4 (Cumulative Hazards) - Like B1, if they're mild enough you can stay underground for the night and emerge in the morning it's fine. If they're strong enough that you can't it's terrible.
  
• B5 (Farming) - A very minor inconvenience at the most.

 

• C1 (Bedrock) - Assuming topsoil is still diggable, this is fine. Resources would need to be re-balanced for the lack of mining, but I'd see this as net positive because mining is boring (pun totally intended).
  
• C2 (Content) - I'm pretty neutral about this. SI problems from unseen underground caves could be an issue.
  
• C3 (Buyout) - Hate, hate, hate. You're supposed to be the protagonist. The NPCs should be coming to you for safety, not the other way around.
  
• C4 (Undetectable) - Would be an interesting addition and a net positive to the game. I don't see the connection to underground bases, though.
  
• C5 (Suppression) - if it stops night-time wandering hordes, I'm all for it.
  
• C6 (Foundation) - If the base is above ground, presumably the zombies wouldn't be digging under it anyway. If the base is below ground, they'll be digging down, not up. I don't understant what effect this one will have.

 

• D1 (Zombies can be avoided in other ways) - Agreed, but it's nice to have the "realistic" option of a bunker.
  
• D2 (People will circumvent intended gameplay) - The key here is "intended gameplay" - what is the intent? That you can't avoid horde nights? That you can't spend any night hidden in a bunker? That you can't have any kind of permanent base? That needs to be clarified before features are decided on, because otherwise everyone's aiming for different experiences.
  
• D3 (It's fine how it is) - That's my preference, but we've been told it's a no-go.
  
• D4 (Can't defend against diggers) - Yes, that's a huge problem.
  
• D5 (You get less XP underground) - Again, this comes down to the "intended gameplay". Are you supposed to be actively fighting zombies for XP, or are you supposed to be only fighting them to avoid dying. The game is really incoherent about this point at the moment, wanting to be both a survival game and an RPG.
  
• D6 (The zombies don't play fair) - I'd prefer a more classic Romero-style zombie population and fewer "special" ones, but that's not the way the game's going (c.f. "boss" zombies - urgh!)
  
• D7 (Everything should be optional) - To an extent, yes; but psychologically there's a big difference between turning something on for extra challenge and turning something off to make the game easier. The default for pretty much any option should be the easier setting for that reason.
  
• D8 (Zombies have already got into underground bases) - Yes, that's occasionally happened to me, due to A5.
  
• D9 (Players can avoid underground) - This has been I've brought up before. If underground is "safe" and above ground is "dangerous", then players who prefer either type of environment have somewhere to put their base. If underground is made "dangerous" to match above ground, then players who like it like that have two types of environment to put their base and players who preferred it "safe" have nowhere to put theirs.
  
• D10 (Sometimes you want a break from the zombies) - It's less about wanting a break from them in terms of danger, and more about not wanting to have to constantly rebuild defenses and repair walls. Let us rebuild/repair/upgrade our blood moon horde night strucure once per week and not have to keep rebuilding our bunker every day.
  
• D11 (Changes could affect playstyle) - Some of them would certainly affect mine, possibly to the extent of me no longer playing the game because the fun-to-work level is too low.
  
• D12 (Players want a safe place for their stuff) - Yes, but it's more about the building itself than the contents. I want to be able to go out during the day to face danger and scavenge/loot, and then dash back to the safety of a bunker by nightfall. I want my bunker (and its contents) to be safe, so I don't have to spend all my time repairing/rebuilding it.

[Blazer777]

im sorry crater but i didnt fill out the poll as i found it to be unrelative to the game as non of it really belongs it is a game after not real life games are for fun and relaxation not stress if some of us wanna break stuff in game who cares what others think

[Crater Creator]

im sorry crater but i didnt fill out the poll as i found it to be unrelative to the game as non of it really belongs it is a game after not real life games are for fun and relaxation not stress if some of us wanna break stuff in game who cares what others think

 

It's a poll for you as much as it's a poll for me or anyone else.

 

No, really. The last question asks respondents to rate how much they agree or disagree with a series of statements. And based on your post history, I'd expect you to agree or strongly agree with statements like "I am satisfied with the current underground gameplay" and "It is sufficient that players can avoid going underground if they dislike the gameplay there."

 

Having a poll is cool in my view, because it's another way to learn things about each other. For instance, I'm already surprised that people largely disagree with the statement "I dislike having to adapt my preferred playstyle to new changes." I figured we had a large contingent of people who live underground and didn't like the idea of their 'way of life' being threatened by, well, underground threats. But it seems far more people are okay with adapting.

 

Now, the answers are open to interpretation, and points about bias or statistical significance may be valid. But clearly I wouldn't start a poll unless I did care what others think. People in these threads often ask what difference it makes what other people do, which really means "leave me alone, how I play isn't bothering you, don't impose on me." But the poll is asking what you want, and I've never known people to be put off when someone asks what they want.

 

TL;DR: hopefully we all care what each other thinks. If not, why are you here reading this?

[Menace312]

While I do view Blazers comment as a bit harsh, we can nitpick at this point.

 

It is hard to stay completely unbias on subjects you yourself care about.

Any reader of this thread can get the impression that OP is bias...

 

I dont believe Creater was biased in any direction when this poll was made. I actually think he did a very good job at keeping it open for all...

 

But to stay the comments and fears from others, maybe state your own preference in the first post. Then explain you are open minded and can be shifted.

 

Yes yes I know... Nitpicking... But I'm not wrong

[The Batman]

t".

 

Just so you understand my problem, I haven't heard anyone here in the forum say that he likes switching between leather poncho and puffer coat as a fun or fullfilling or interesting activity. Isn't it universally hated? Now, changing into radiation gear every time you go deeper than -10 sounds like exactly the same. Is there anything appealing about that idea that the weather system is missing?

 

You are correct. It's not. And to be honest, I don't want underground stuff to be added. I still think that it's a choice people have to go underground as Mr. A nice cup of Tea explained earlier. Most people who do it. Don't complain but simply build underground because it's less repairs etc. But what I would like is more complex gameplay. That is always very welcome!

 

So with that in mind, you can see why I'm trying I'm trying to give solutions to their problems.

 

<> If you would add a permanent slot for lets say: astronaut suit. Which would allow you to breathe underground and null any temperature changes etc., that you could wear underneath your "armor".

 

That way building underground is gated behind certain skills.

 

IMO: The above ground combat and systems are far from being perfect. And I'd rather have the devs fix those first. But it's always a good thing to think about what could be possible for below ground.

 

 

EDIT: Thank you for the poll. It's very elaborate! +1

 

Batman,

[Tin]

I don't see any confrontation. I asked, you answered. In very general terms though.

 

If you think you would like to play "Building lower than -10 would require radiation gear + large rooms would require air vents", why? Concretely. I can explain why I would like sleeper zombies underground, should you ask. I can tell you the situations I assume will happen and what the "fun" is in these situations. Such reasoning should be possible for you or The Batman too. I probably will not share the sentiment but still "get it".

 

Just so you understand my problem, I haven't heard anyone here in the forum say that he likes switching between leather poncho and puffer coat as a fun or fullfilling or interesting activity. Isn't it universally hated? Now, changing into radiation gear every time you go deeper than -10 sounds like exactly the same. Is there anything appealing about that idea that the weather system is missing?

 

Oh no, I completely understand about the current weather system with the mini dress up game and how it would be off putting to add another need for a gear change on top of that.. but! Having it set at -10m or deeper would be a known gear change and not a sporadic gear change.

 

With the radiation (or insert other means), the only time you would need it, is for long term use. I personally don't like the radiation angle but more of toxic/noxious fumes. So in my world you would just have the need for a gas mask instead of a full suit. In the end it works out the same just a different name and different clothing choice.

 

My preferred late game would be a vent system for underground.

Once you get everything set up and have a working vent system, you can remove the mask (unless the vent system broke down or something).

 

For the Radiation: I would like, every once in a while, a radiation storm to roll in and either give us the need to find/make a suitable shelter topside or build an underground shelter to wait it out. Give us a reason to use up all that food and water we pack ratted away or find all the pieces of the rad suit for those times we don't want to just sit and wait it out.

 

*Just want to highly stress that the rad storm or any major weather event (imo) should be a slow build up, days. Giving the player enough time to prepare and advanced warning that the change is coming.

I also wouldn't mind days long cold snaps or heatwaves in certain biome as well. Randomize the major weather events, maybe it's a Rad storm or a heatwave or a cold snap.

This will Give us a reason to travel to those snow biomes/deserts to either stay in them for a couple days or find the clothing you'll need to combat the weather events in the biome your main fort is in.

 

I also think TFP will eventually revisit the weather system and tighten it up in someway that'll make the dress up mini game more bearable.

 

Read further if you want beyond this.. Kinda off topic.

 

I also think the first 7 days should still be the zombie horde but thereafter every 7 days should randomize events every 7days.

• Zombie blood moon horde.
  
• Bandit raid.
  
• Major weather event (Rad/Heatwave/Cold snap).
  

 

Still 7 days to die but not always the zombie mega horde. I mean still have zombies attack you via wandering hordes or what not Since zombies are the main theme and should be. imo I think the zombie threat every 7 days, on top of the mostly daily wandering hordes is a touch over played.

 

Just my opinion and I know it won't be every ones ideal..

[Roland]

I like switching between puffer coat and poncho....

[meganoth]

I like switching between puffer coat and poncho....

 

Roland, stand in that corner over there and think deeply about what you just said. Everyone else, here's ice cream

[meganoth]

I'm surprised that the sentry and breadcrumbs points didn't get more love. Those a long with squeezing worms and environmental challenges are the best in my opinion as none of them should cause swiss cheese hell but will still make underground game play so much more interesting.

 

I can tell you why I at least rated them low. Breadcrumbs is actually an excellent idea (for above and below ground) and I put it somewhere in the middle, but without some zombie that digs down it won't have any real impact for below ground and be like the sentry idea.

 

And the sentry idea I really put last. Why? Because at the moment (yes, this could change eventually) you can shoot them from below on the ladder without them being able to hit you. Or you can run out of the hole surrounded by all the zombies and as long as you are running they won't be able to hit you. After that it is just the usual above ground shooting gallery or run and hide.

 

As if that wasn't enough, there's the ultimate devastatingly easy cop out: Make two entrances, always enter by one and exit by the other, problem solved.

 

Even if all above weren't the case, I don't feel like it adds any fun dangers or things to do or things to avoid to the underground, it doesn't make the underground interesting if something just waits above. It would be more like a penalty for going underground.