Underground Threats & More

[meganoth]

You are correct. It's not. And to be honest, I don't want underground stuff to be added. I still think that it's a choice people have to go underground as Mr. A nice cup of Tea explained earlier. Most people who do it. Don't complain but simply build underground because it's less repairs etc. But what I would like is more complex gameplay. That is always very welcome!

 

So with that in mind, you can see why I'm trying I'm trying to give solutions to their problems.

 

<> If you would add a permanent slot for lets say: astronaut suit. Which would allow you to breathe underground and null any temperature changes etc., that you could wear underneath your "armor".

 

That way building underground is gated behind certain skills.

 

The permanent slot is a good idea, TFP could just use the shirt slot for that, that is already underneath the chest armor.

 

So your motive is partly to promote underground dangers that practically keep everything mostly the same for you, i.e. keep your low-maintenance underground base viable. Fair enough.

 

Your proposed solution though is therefore not something you really want. If that solution is also not really desired by the faction that wants underground dangers it is the worst kind of compromise solutions, one that doesn't really help anyone. I obviously can't speak for that faction, but am part of it and at least for me there is no improvement. The problem is not preventing people from building underground, the problem is making the underground interesting, alive, not boring.

 

I can see the appeal in building an air vent now, but gating the deeper underground just so another item (the radiation suit) needs to be found or bought from the trader? That doesn't bring anything to the underground, it is just a venture/quest done above ground.

 

If the decision was just between us, we would resolve this by adding digging zombies and make them an option in the menue. THAT would help us both.

 

Oh no, I completely understand about the current weather system with the mini dress up game and how it would be off putting to add another need for a gear change on top of that.. but! Having it set at -10m or deeper would be a known gear change and not a sporadic gear change.

 

With the radiation (or insert other means), the only time you would need it, is for long term use. I personally don't like the radiation angle but more of toxic/noxious fumes. So in my world you would just have the need for a gas mask instead of a full suit. In the end it works out the same just a different name and different clothing choice.

 

Exactly. And even the toxic fumes would degenerate to a "known gear change", you would just don the gas mask whenever you go underground and ignore the toxic fumes from that moment on.

 

For the Radiation: I would like, every once in a while, a radiation storm to roll in and either give us the need to find/make a suitable shelter topside or build an underground shelter to wait it out. Give us a reason to use up all that food and water we pack ratted away or find all the pieces of the rad suit for those times we don't want to just sit and wait it out.

 

I like the idea in general. Much better than the fixed radiation zones because they can be ignored by just not going there. But storms/fallout sound more like that should be a topside weather event.

 

 

[*]A4 (Sleeper) - This is a bit all-or-nothing. Put your base in the right place (not near any hidden underground sleepers) and you're fine. Put it in the wrong place and you'll have to put it somewhere else instead because they'll keep respawning. Not terrible, I don't suppose, but still annoying when it happens.

 

If underground sleepers work like POI sleepers now, yes. Doesn't need to be though. Sleepers in the underground could either be spawned dynamically when you actively dig into new areas. Or spawn only once. Clean an area once and that area is safe.

[eidobunny]

Having a poll is cool in my view, because it's another way to learn things about each other. For instance, I'm already surprised that people largely disagree with the statement "I dislike having to adapt my preferred playstyle to new changes." I figured we had a large contingent of people who live underground and didn't like the idea of their 'way of life' being threatened by, well, underground threats. But it seems far more people are okay with adapting.

 

Survival games literally depend on forcing the players to adapt to their world as the main gameplay element

 

The more we have to learn and adapt, the more interesting and fun the game is and continues to be.

[eidobunny]

(snip) The problem is not preventing people from building underground, the problem is making the underground interesting, alive, not boring.

 

I can see the appeal in building an air vent now, but gating the deeper underground just so another item (the radiation suit) needs to be found or bought from the trader? That doesn't bring anything to the underground, it is just a venture/quest done above ground. (snip)

 

That's the thing though, underground dangers are literally being suggested because living underground is too easy to establish total safety. Right now you could log in a server at 20:00 on day 7, build a stone axe and dig a hole capable of weathering the night in under 5 minutes.

 

These changes are specifically being proposed to postpone "absolutely safety" to a later gamestage. Eventually, you want to have a place that feels 100% safe. That's the ultimate goal of a survival game, to survive and eventually mitigate any great danger to your life at any given time. So then the goal IS actually to prevent people from building underground, and furthermore it IS to make people do a venture quest above ground before they have the ability to dig a few blocks to absolute safety. The goal of underground dangers is to, in my opinion, approximately equate the time it takes to reach absolute safety above ground with the time it takes to reach absolute safety below ground. In other words, it needs to become harder to establish yourself underground, but not impossible. Gating this behind technology (ventilation) could potentially be roughly equivalent to gating above-ground safety through high-tier building materials (concrete, spikes, turrets).

[zackss]

A radiation threat could be handled in a lot of ways that doesn't just mean putting on rad gear whenever you go to your underground home. Radon could be seeping from raw rock, causing damage if not mitigated, but with a variety of options to lessen it. A rad suit could provide complete and portable protection, but a gas mask could lessen the damage by preventing inhalation of radioactive particles. You might wear protection while digging the base, but installing concrete walls could lessen the effect or blocks created with lead could create a full barrier.

 

All that said, this has to be paired with mechanics that distinguish between bases 2 blocks and 20 blocks below the surface. Better ores and zombie protection make sense, but that means zombies need to be able to break into shallow bases rather than just walk on top of them. Ideally the effort and materials needed to build a safe underground base is comparable to the above ground options, so that living above or below ground is just a question of which playstyle you prefer rather than one just being outright more efficient.

[Vomkat]

Eventually, you want to have a place that feels 100% safe. That's the ultimate goal of a survival game, to survive and eventually mitigate any great danger to your life at any given time.

 

I disagree. The goal of a survival game is to see how long you can survive, without ever being 100% safe. If the game allows you to be safe, its broken and needs to be made more challenging.

[meganoth]

That's the thing though, underground dangers are literally being suggested because living underground is too easy to establish total safety. Right now you could log in a server at 20:00 on day 7, build a stone axe and dig a hole capable of weathering the night in under 5 minutes.

 

These changes are specifically being proposed to postpone "absolutely safety" to a later gamestage. Eventually, you want to have a place that feels 100% safe. That's the ultimate goal of a survival game, to survive and eventually mitigate any great danger to your life at any given time. So then the goal IS actually to prevent people from building underground, and furthermore it IS to make people do a venture quest above ground before they have the ability to dig a few blocks to absolute safety.

 

Hah, consider what a game 7d2d were if TFP had applied the same "lazy" design goal to the surface? "Oh, it doesn't have to be fun, interesting, surprising. We don't need zombies, just make the air radioactive or toxic and the player slowly loses health. And we just need to provide the player with a better and better gas mask if he klicks the mouse button enough".

 

Would that be survival? Whats good for the underground must be good for the surface, right? There is also progress, with a better gas mask always in reach until the 100% gas mask gives you 100% safety, the goal of a survival game. And there is danger.

 

So what is missing? Well, decisions, tests of your intelligence and/or your reflexes, immersion, right? Now I can think of two defenses against my argument:

 

1) "All the fun is on the surface already". But ok, why have an underground at all if you don't want to have a game there?`If all the player needs is safety for his stuff, TFP could create a bank vault/hotel at the trader to store valuables and player. And then remove the underground. Development time just to change a mostly boring area to a mostly boring AND for some time unusable area is in my opinion wasted time. (I said mostly because digging and building can provide a minimum of fun activity and immersion)

 

3) "Underground dangers should be different than surface dangers". Yes, ideally you want a different game or at least different circumstances compared to the surface. But it is easier to change the rules of an existing game (like zombie fighting) somewhat in a different location than to make a game out of a non-game (like donning a gas mask whenever a light goes on). Ever heard of the toxic gas game? I haven't.

[OzHawkeye]

I like switching between puffer coat and poncho....

 

Bad Roland, bad. ;-)

 

Trying to disguise it with smaller text no less to.

[eidobunny]

I disagree. The goal of a survival game is to see how long you can survive, without ever being 100% safe. If the game allows you to be safe, its broken and needs to be made more challenging.

 

Yeah I mean I guess but unless they make some drastic changes to make the game way more difficult then I'm pretty much 100% safe as it is. The zombies are not that difficult to handle. I've played 100 hours in live PvP and gone with 0 deaths. Pretty much the only challenge right now is fighting other players who are also very good at the game, so I guess I agree with you but I have to point out that according to your definition, the game is already broken and needs to be made more challenging.

 

Hah, consider what a game 7d2d were if TFP had applied the same "lazy" design goal to the surface? "Oh, it doesn't have to be fun, interesting, surprising. We don't need zombies, just make the air radioactive or toxic and the player slowly loses health. And we just need to provide the player with a better and better gas mask if he klicks the mouse button enough".

 

Would that be survival? Whats good for the underground must be good for the surface, right? There is also progress, with a better gas mask always in reach until the 100% gas mask gives you 100% safety, the goal of a survival game. And there is danger.

 

So what is missing? Well, decisions, tests of your intelligence and/or your reflexes, immersion, right? Now I can think of two defenses against my argument:

 

1) "All the fun is on the surface already". But ok, why have an underground at all if you don't want to have a game there?`If all the player needs is safety for his stuff, TFP could create a bank vault/hotel at the trader to store valuables and player. And then remove the underground. Development time just to change a mostly boring area to a mostly boring AND for some time unusable area is in my opinion wasted time. (I said mostly because digging and building can provide a minimum of fun activity and immersion)

 

3) "Underground dangers should be different than surface dangers". Yes, ideally you want a different game or at least different circumstances compared to the surface. But it is easier to change the rules of an existing game (like zombie fighting) somewhat in a different location than to make a game out of a non-game (like donning a gas mask whenever a light goes on). Ever heard of the toxic gas game? I haven't.

 

Okay okay dial back the animosity first so we can discuss our ideas without being at each other's necks for no reason.

 

Now, I think ventilation is an extremely important key technological barrier to prevent people from building underground. In general, I'm not a fan of the realism angle, but in this case we could use it for an interesting difficulty barrier and solve the problem of basing underground being completely safe.

 

In general, you're not going to run out of oxygen just being in a cave that has direct access to the surface. If you packed a ton of people down there you might be at risk, but one person in a deep cave is probably not going to asphyxiate. Now, all of that changes when you start consuming oxygen through the use of fire (re: forges, chemistry stations, campfires). I think it would make sense to have these objects generate a volume of unsuitable air that needs to be expelled through an exhaust system (which could be as simple as a pipe to fresh air with some fans) and have oxygen recouped through a similar intake system. It would give players even more reason to head to cities to scavenge for parts and get involved with the new electronics systems in their quest to advance their level of technology to reach higher degrees of comfort.

 

Now I'm not sure you're understanding the problem/solution dynamic because your gas mask analogy didn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of this conversation. The problem is that right now, you can dig underground in a few seconds/minutes and be 100% safe as long as you want to sit in that cave. You can even continue digging to collect minerals and refine them and cook and everything else without ever putting yourself in danger. As Vomkat pointed out, if you can be 100% safe in a survival game, the design needs to be modified to present a situational challenge. In my head, ventilation is a great solution to this problem. If you want to sit underground and progress - ie. mine and forge materials and cook and everything else - then you need a system to pump in oxygen and expel exhaust. If you want to just store things in a little pit then you don't need such technology.

 

The ultimate goal here is to introduce a challenge to underground play. Out of all of the challenges proposed, ventilation is my favorite and I'm vouching for it (depending on implementation).

 

I don't think the underground dimension of the game should be removed since it's such a major fun factor for base building. It just needs to be rebalanced, and perhaps receive a content pass to bring more interesting gameplay to the "underground" biome in some manner. Look at how many interesting things there are underground for you in Minecraft for example. It would also add a whole new dynamic to PvP that doesn't exist in games like Rust and Ark.

 

Clearly we are not on the same page since you think that digging and building are not fun whereas I spend 95% of my time in 7 Days digging and building, but I just ask that we discuss our differences of opinion with some degree of respect. Different people play this game in different ways and for different reasons. From my perspective, there is a lot to be gained by modifying the underground gameplay dynamic as it currently is.

[meganoth]

Okay okay dial back the animosity first so we can discuss our ideas without being at each other's necks for no reason.

 

There is no animosity intended. I'm delighted to discuss this with you and that you have brought up a very good counter argument. What in my post do you see as unfriendly or agressive?

 

Now I'm not sure you're understanding the problem/solution dynamic because your gas mask analogy didn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of this conversation. The problem is that right now, you can dig underground in a few seconds/minutes and be 100% safe as long as you want to sit in that cave. You can even continue digging to collect minerals and refine them and cook and everything else without ever putting yourself in danger. As Vomkat pointed out, if you can be 100% safe in a survival game, the design needs to be modified to present a situational challenge. In my head, ventilation is a great solution to this problem. If you want to sit underground and progress - ie. mine and forge materials and cook and everything else - then you need a system to pump in oxygen and expel exhaust. If you want to just store things in a little pit then you don't need such technology.

 

The ultimate goal here is to introduce a challenge to underground play. Out of all of the challenges proposed, ventilation is my favorite and I'm vouching for it (depending on implementation).

 

I don't dispute that the biggest reason why TFP is thinking about adding underground dangers is that there are trivial survival strategies. And I understand the appeal of vent pipes as a solution for part of the players. It beats the gas mask by a mile, but remember the gas mask is the example that started the discussion and I was talking about it in the post you replied to.

 

Now as good as the air vent system (especially compared to the gas mask) is, it still has its shortcomings:

 

1) Like the minibike it basically is a (level or tech) gate. Before having it the underground is (or nearly is) a no-go area, once you have it the underground "problems" are more or less over and the underground is switched back to a safe place territory. Yes, there are ways to improve this with more development time and boring intermediate techs like .. gas masks, having their own problems.

 

2) It gives builders/miners something to play with for one or two hours, but for everyone else (who goes underground just to mine ore, a very sizable portion of the player population according to the poll) it doesn't make the underground more interesting or fun, in the worst case even just more annoying (for example if it means you have to place air vents every 100 blocks, or you need to go out and in again every 2 in-game hours).

 

3) It misses a dynamic component, unexpectedness, new situations, something often called emergent gameplay. Basically the air vent system is without random dangers if you don't also add the zombies that can go down that air vent system.

 

So I think while TFP wants to solve the problem of easy avoidance stategies they also don't want to waste development time for "anti-features" that are just there to block players from doing something. And we players should be interested in features that give us fun all the time and aren't just nuisances for many players. Zombies, animals or bandits in the underground have their problems too and must be balanced and reworked for the underground, but they provide a dynamic(!) hopefully unpredictable danger to the underground that works from day 1 until the end of the game.

 

I don't think the underground dimension of the game should be removed since it's such a major fun factor for base building. It just needs to be rebalanced, and perhaps receive a content pass to bring more interesting gameplay to the "underground" biome in some manner. Look at how many interesting things there are underground for you in Minecraft for example. It would also add a whole new dynamic to PvP that doesn't exist in games like Rust and Ark.

 

Exactly. The fun shouldn't be confined to miners though. I don't own minecraft, can't comment on that. Removing underground wasn't suggested as a serious solution but a solution that could solve the main problem TFP has and thereby showing that that can't be the only design criteria. At the moment the underground is better than no underground but just doesn't live up to the rest of the game (except water).

 

Clearly we are not on the same page since you think that digging and building are not fun whereas I spend 95% of my time in 7 Days digging and building, but I just ask that we discuss our differences of opinion with some degree of respect. Different people play this game in different ways and for different reasons. From my perspective, there is a lot to be gained by modifying the underground gameplay dynamic as it currently is.

 

I don't think digging and building are not fun. It just is a part of the game play that I spend less than 10% of my time with or leave completely to friends. Sorry if my post was perceived as without respect.

[Gamida]

I think that is one of the good qualities about playing MP Coop. You can have one person who likes building, one who likes mining, one who likes looting, one who like killing zombies and some who like combos. So you can enjoy your game and get the benefit of the other players.

[Guppycur]

One who likes dressing up as a bandit...

[canadianbluebeer]

and one who shoots bandits on sight.

 

 

Actually, the ventilation is a good idea, since..... the vent is then a beacon for zombies.

 

Heat map is already going to be there, but now they have a place to dig at.

(unless yer smart, and put the vents exiting into your drop pit. Bait for the trap. heh)

[eidobunny]

@meganoth

 

I was referring to your whole first and last paragraphs primarily, which were laden with sarcasm and essentially calling the ideas I support "lazy design" in a mocking way. I took it as very combative.

 

But differences aside, you do bring up some good points. I'm also a huge supporter of both sentry zombies and breadcrumbs, it's just that I've been primarily supporting ventilation. If you combine these suggestions what you have is a system that serves as a technology gate for reaching 100% safety underground as well as active underground threats (zombies following you underground from your entrance). As another user suggested, your vent could also generate heatmap which would bring zombies to the vented location (provided a player is present in the chunk) similar to the way screamers approach forges. Then through the breadcrumb system they may wander and try to find a way to engage you, or they may start digging - forcing you to build defenses for your intake/exhaust system. In normal situations, maybe there would just be a few zombies near the entrance to your mine and that's it. Maybe there would be "events" like the wandering hordes where zombies would follow the breadcrumb trail down into your mine once a day or so. Not too much to make it frustrating to mine, but enough to keep the player engaged underground. And of course on 7th nights you'd be automatically hunted which would make hiding underground astronomically difficult if not impossible without a significant investment in defenses. From a base-building perspective it could be fun and interesting to develop systems to establish yourself underground. Maybe it would be too complicated for the average player (or rather, too complicated to communicate to the player) so a simpler solution like diggers and breadcrumbs would have to be employed. That's ultimately up to TFP.

 

One of the big perks of a ventilation system IMO would be the necessity of vent intake and exhaust in PvP scenarios to discourage players from having a cheesy underground safehaven for their bases. Players could still attempt to conceal their exhaust but it would give detectives some form of telltale sign that a base is in the area. In the past, the sound radii were large enough that you could stalk players using sound. Now the map is much smaller but the sound radii are far too small so the chance that you encounter another player through anything other than sheer luck is minimal, which isn't as exciting from a PvP standpoint. Don't worry, I know the game isn't being made for PvP, but that's how I play the game so it naturally plays a part in my perspective here. I think there are possible solutions that could be fun from both a PvE standpoint and a PvP standpoint. And maybe ventilation isn't that solution but out of the choices here it's my favorite one.

[badger2013]

My earlier findings have now been cooked up into a tasty survey. Since I couldn't encapsulate everything into 1 poll question, I made a more elaborate survey on Survey Monkey. Please use the link at the top of the page.

 

Great poll, thanks for putting this together!

[Crater Creator]

Thanks, badger2013.

 

Regarding ventilation, I don’t think it would have to be as much of a one-off or a simple underground on-off switch as meganoth is describing it. It’s natural to expand spaces over time: working into a new ore vein in your mine when one is depleted, or adding rooms to your base as you need room for more stuff or more people. Your first week hidey-hole is very different from your ultimate underground compound, and the game could account for this progression. The player could have to find that balance between the complexity they want and the oxygen they need multiple times on their journey to success, in the same way you now have to balance complexity and heat as you grow. I still consider entity-based threats at least equally important, though.

[meganoth]

@meganoth

 

I was referring to your whole first and last paragraphs primarily, which were laden with sarcasm and essentially calling the ideas I support "lazy design" in a mocking way. I took it as very combative.

 

I tried for "eloquent" but failed.

The "lazy design" is a misunderstanding, I called (probably in a too cryptic way) designing to ONLY prevent people from doing something in the underground a lazy design. Hopefully my example makes more sense now. I wasn't refering to the air vent solution at all (I even called it appealing in the same post)

 

And I know you don't think it should be "designed lazy" either, because you propose the air vent idea exactly because you think it is fun and regard the gas mask idea as inferior for that very reason.

 

But differences aside, you do bring up some good points. I'm also a huge supporter of both sentry zombies and breadcrumbs, it's just that I've been primarily supporting ventilation. If you combine these suggestions what you have is a system that serves as a technology gate for reaching 100% safety underground as well as active underground threats (zombies following you underground from your entrance).

 

Yes. But do sentry zombies really fit in there. Isn't the central idea of that that they wait above and don't follow you, almost the contrary idea to breadcrumbs ?

 

As another user suggested, your vent could also generate heatmap which would bring zombies to the vented location (provided a player is present in the chunk) similar to the way screamers approach forges. Then through the breadcrumb system they may wander and try to find a way to engage you, or they may start digging - forcing you to build defenses for your intake/exhaust system. In normal situations, maybe there would just be a few zombies near the entrance to your mine and that's it. Maybe there would be "events" like the wandering hordes where zombies would follow the breadcrumb trail down into your mine once a day or so. Not too much to make it frustrating to mine, but enough to keep the player engaged underground. And of course on 7th nights you'd be automatically hunted which would make hiding underground astronomically difficult if not impossible without a significant investment in defenses. From a base-building perspective it could be fun and interesting to develop systems to establish yourself underground. Maybe it would be too complicated for the average player (or rather, too complicated to communicate to the player) so a simpler solution like diggers and breadcrumbs would have to be employed. That's ultimately up to TFP.

 

I'm fully on the same page with you here, it doesn't matter that you primarily look forward to design of the air vent system and I to the zombies crawling through it ;-).

 

TFP's difficult job is to make certain that there are no easy exploits here (building the vent opening far away, ventilation working through hatches, grills or half-blocks). Not only because it is one of the goals but also because I don't want to play like an idiot just so zombies find a way underground. Especially in co-op it just doesn't work to say to your co-players "Okay, lets not put a hatch on this opening even though it prevents zombies from following. We don't do that because we roleplay idiots now so we get zombies underground.". Ultimately I suspect at least one digging zombie is still a must, even with air vents.

 

One of the big perks of a ventilation system IMO would be the necessity of vent intake and exhaust in PvP scenarios to discourage players from having a cheesy underground safehaven for their bases. Players could still attempt to conceal their exhaust but it would give detectives some form of telltale sign that a base is in the area. In the past, the sound radii were large enough that you could stalk players using sound. Now the map is much smaller but the sound radii are far too small so the chance that you encounter another player through anything other than sheer luck is minimal, which isn't as exciting from a PvP standpoint. Don't worry, I know the game isn't being made for PvP, but that's how I play the game so it naturally plays a part in my perspective here. I think there are possible solutions that could be fun from both a PvE standpoint and a PvP standpoint. And maybe ventilation isn't that solution but out of the choices here it's my favorite one.

 

IMO ventilation is definitely and undeniably a feature (no, FEATURE) in PvP while a lot hangs on the specific implementation in PvE whether it is a success. I don't mind PvP players getting some sunshine too.

[meganoth]

Thanks, badger2013.

 

Regarding ventilation, I don’t think it would have to be as much of a one-off or a simple underground on-off switch as meganoth is describing it. It’s natural to expand spaces over time: working into a new ore vein in your mine when one is depleted, or adding rooms to your base as you need room for more stuff or more people. Your first week hidey-hole is very different from your ultimate underground compound, and the game could account for this progression. The player could have to find that balance between the complexity they want and the oxygen they need multiple times on their journey to success, in the same way you now have to balance complexity and heat as you grow. I still consider entity-based threats at least equally important, though.

 

In the best case it leads to more complex designs and new ideas (but best case isn't easy to achieve). In the worst case players just add the same ventilation shaft again and again every x days. But this would still be a little better than it is now, because they would need to dig upwards once in a while.

 

With ventilation it would really make sense for the RWG to place the best ore veins deeper down. Because then the player has to decide between low yield but short ventilations shafts and high yield but very high shafts to dig. And suffocating because the pump ran out of gasoline (IF electrical pumps were part of the feature, see "best case" above ) would also have to be taken into consideration, getting to fresh air from bed rock takes a lot longer than from 10 blocks down

[eidobunny]

I'm interested in seeing what TFP will decide to do here. Surface gameplay has changed and improved so much (minus sound radii nerf imho), especially with skyscrapers and electricity and new prefab designs and block types, but I'm excited for more underground opportunities as well as AI improvements to make the zombies a bit more threatening.

[The Batman]

Good discussion guys. So civilized I need a second monocle!

 

Except for Roland and his ponchos.

 

Batman,

[meganoth]

Good discussion guys. So civilized I need a second monocle!

 

Except for Roland and his ponchos.

 

Batman,

 

You are invited to tea. Don't forget to bring your duel pistols.

[canadianbluebeer]

For any kind of ventilation system, we would also need something to cap the shafts, that or build a guardshack/tower thing, to keep zombies from falling in, breaking in. Mind you, weaker zombies would die from the fall if it's to bedrock.

 

Fans of some kind as well. Ductwork. (the models for those are already in, so just make'em craftable).

 

Me, I'd put the exhausts in the middle of a drop pit(s), and have the intakes come from the main entrance area, which is already defended.

 

Of course, now we get into, how many fans for how much space etc calculations. blech.

IF something like that comes in, then really would need to extend how far power lines can go.

(also a way to combine generators/banks etc)

 

Oh, and if we have to start doing vents etc for AIR, then at the same time, we should be able to control the TEMPERATURE!

 

So, we setup our systems, and then the temp should stabilize for the base.

[OzHawkeye]

Oh, and if we have to start doing vents etc for AIR, then at the same time, we should be able to control the TEMPERATURE!

 

So, we setup our systems, and then the temp should stabilize for the base.

 

Actually, given the weather system in place, air-conditioning / climate control would be a nice feature for ANY base I reckon.

[eidobunny]

Actually, given the weather system in place, air-conditioning / climate control would be a nice feature for ANY base I reckon.

 

+1

 

and enough characters to make a post

[Maharin]

+1

 

and enough characters to make a post

 

If you spelled out "plus one" you'd probably be okay. I also agree with OzHawkeye.

[eidobunny]

If you spelled out "plus one" you'd probably be okay. I also agree with OzHawkeye.

 

my way was more fun