Underground Threats & More

[Crater Creator]

My earlier findings have now been cooked up into a tasty survey. Since I couldn't encapsulate everything into 1 poll question, I made a more elaborate survey on Survey Monkey. Please use the link at the top of the page.

[Crater Creator]

Underground Threats & More

 

Ideas for underground threats can be broken into two categories: entity-based threats and environment-based threats. Then there are underground ideas beyond added threats; and lastly the thoughts, opinions, and assertions that come up every time we discuss this that are focused on things other than improving gameplay.

 

A: Entity-based threats

 

1. Digger Z: Zombies that dig, perhaps with a maximum depth they’ll dig, or weaknesses outside of digging
   
2. Digger Non-Z: Non-zombies that dig, like bandits, animals, or earthquakes
   
3. Filler: Zombies or other entities that fill in tunnels, potentially burying the player
   
4. Sleeper: Dens/buried graves of sleeper zombies/animals/monsters
   
5. Sentry: Zombies that wait at the surface until you come out, without despawning
   
6. Gate Crasher: Zombies that target & attack hatches like they already target doors
   
7. Worms: Small critters that squeeze in through blocks without destroying them
   
8. Bread crumbs: The player leaves a ‘scent trail’ for zombies to follow
   

 

 

B: Environment-based threats

 

1. Ventilation: Oxygen is limited, with some mechanism(s) to combat this
   
2. Flooding: Cavities sometimes fill with water
   
3. Localized hazards: Players get hurt if they get too close to poison gas, explosive gas, lava, or a pit
   
4. Cumulative hazards: Radiation, dust, temperature, lack of sunlight, or ‘insanity’ builds up for the player while underground
   
5. Barren: Farming is inhibited, so players have to leave the base more often
   

 

 

C: Other, Non-Threat-Based Underground Ideas

 

1. Bedrock: Terrain is literally indestructible and there is no underground.
   
2. Content: More complex caves and/or underground POIs are added.
   
3. Buyout: Players can pay a trader/settlement for safety.
   
4. Undetected: Stealth perks/skills allow the player to stay undetected, even on horde night.
   
5. Suppression: A mechanism prevents certain zombies from spawning in the first place.
   
6. Foundation: The player can automatically detect or fill holes under a base, and/or prevent digging there.
   

 

 

D: Other Thoughts That May or May Not Be Correct, But People Are Very Vocal About

Originally, I was thinking if we did do a poll, this would be the list of off-topic things that would be culled to a separate thread.

 

1. There are other ways to avoid zombies for little effort.
   
2. The player will always find a way to circumvent intended gameplay.
   
3. Underground gameplay is fine and no changes are needed.
   
4. Mods should provide underground gameplay for those that want it.
   
5. The player can’t defend against digger zombies as they’re coming.
   
6. In addition to avoiding threats, players underground avoid benefits like XP.
   
7. The zombies don’t ‘play fair,’ either.
   
8. Anything should be optional.
   
9. Anecdotally, zombies have already gotten into underground bases.
   
10. Players can choose to avoid the underground, or anything else they don’t like.
    
11. Sometimes a player wants a break from the zombies.
    
12. Changes could affect the playstyle of some players.
    
13. Players want a safe place for their stuff.
    

 

---

So is this useful? Is there a poll to be had out of this? I don't know at this point. But now we can at least save a lot of time by just shouting "A6!" "D8!" "C3!" "D7!" at each other, since we pretty much make the same points every time.

[Roland]

This was an excellent recap post by Crater Creator and I think it warrants its own thread. Perhaps CC will add a poll later if he thinks up a good angle. At any rate, this thread is NOT about whether there should or should not be underground threats. Madmole has already announced that there WILL be. This thread is simply to discuss how you would like to see it implemented. Arguing in this thread about whether the underground should or should not remain 100% safe will be considered off-topic. We will not allow this thread to devolve into the same arguments and accusations that all the rest have become. Whether the underground will or will not be safe has been resolved. It will not.

 

Now, lets discuss the ideas and perhaps come up with new ones and refine what you like or dislike about the different ways to make underworld dwelling interesting and challenging.

[ChJees]

Ventilation idea could have some merit i guess. The deeper (underground) you are the worse your stamina regenerates without being in proximity of a air purifier block. Could probably work for extreme heights as well i guess.

Should be a fairly CPU and network friendly way to add some challenge to being underground.

 

As for Bread Crumbs the (scent)trail would take a lot longer to decay than above ground. Would make it a lot easier for zombies to find a spot to break into.

[Roland]

A: Entity-based threats

 

1. Digger Z: Zombies that dig, perhaps with a maximum depth they’ll dig, or weaknesses outside of digging
   
2. Digger Non-Z: Non-zombies that dig, like bandits, animals, or earthquakes
   
3. Filler: Zombies or other entities that fill in tunnels, potentially burying the player
   
4. Sleeper: Dens/buried graves of sleeper zombies/animals/monsters
   
5. Sentry: Zombies that wait at the surface until you come out, without despawning
   
6. Gate Crasher: Zombies that target & attack hatches like they already target doors
   
7. Worms: Small critters that squeeze in through blocks without destroying them
   
8. Bread crumbs: The player leaves a ‘scent trail’ for zombies to follow
   

 

 

 

A1: My feelings about digger zombies is that they should be limited in number of types that can dig. I am happy that faatal is starting with just dogs and I think if that expands eventually to zombie bears and one bandit type in the future I personally would be satisfied. I'm also not opposed to a depth limit or a claim block ability that makes it so that individual players can have their 100% avoidance of zombies so long as the rest of the underworld is available for survival threats.

 

A2: A bandit with a shovel or auger would be sweet.

 

A3: Personally, I don't like this idea as an zombie ability. It doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps a bandit who can set charges... As the result of a natural cave-in it wouldn't bother me. If building support columns and cross beams in tunnels could mitigate the chances of such cave ins then that would be cool because it would be encouraging actual design and thought when tunneling. I remember when I first started playing I built lots of supports because the game trailer made it seem like the ceiling might cave in if you dug too far without supports. I felt sheepish when I realized you don't need underground supports at all...

 

A4: Yes. I very much would love dens and buried bodies you might happen upon underground.

 

A5, A6: I do think a horde that hangs out at entry points is a good idea and if they become aggro and detect you below they should be able to attack hatches. It would be great if the game could also spawn hordes at your entrance/exits even if they are in a different chunk from your main base.

 

A7: Not a fan of worms that emerge from blocks. Those little critters in Minecraft are just annoying but maybe some people like them...

 

A8: Yes. But with a way to mask the scent. I'm thinking of Will Smith using bleach in Legend...

[Spiked_Coffee]

I would think B1 with a little bit of A1.

 

B1 - Ventilation would only be needed for bigger deeper bases so that early players could still use shallow underground bases to start. Also ventilation systems (via vibration and noise) would attract zombies and be a potential weakened entry point.

 

A1 - I've always thought it would be plausible that when a cop explodes the zombies could use the crater to start digging. Early stage I'd think a dog could start a small hole that a wandering hoard would exploit as they "fell" into it.

[Aldranon]

I'm looking forward to the old zombie excavation teams again! What was that A10?

 

They can clear the top soil and deeper to reveal all the good stuff Mother Nature has to provide!

 

My production base will never see me near it on horde night, of course.

[Reth]

Just for the record, I am not against player being safe underground, I'm simply looking for ways to enhance the gameplay.

 

I would be in favor of B.1 - ventilation and B.4 - lack of sunlight leading to depression and eventually insanity. They both seem quite logical. I also feel that by adding some natural obstacles that can be overcome, we are enhancing the game, not just randomly making it more difficult.

 

I'm not sure how complicated it would be to add support for ventilation, but adding lack of sunlight as a negative status effect doesn't sound like a difficult thing to do.

 

I'm fairly strongly against zombies digging through the ground, I feel that they should only attempt to destroy obvious man-made objects and structures.

[Aerial]

On the topic of farming underground: A small change would be to make is so that a single overhead open block only illuminates one ground block for growing. Even better if that overhead open block had to be with 5 vertical blocks of the plant block to be effective.

 

A larger change would be to introduce grow lights and an irrigation pump. Both would require power and the irrigation pump would need to be filled with water (which it would use like fuel). Besides giving buckets a use, it would provide a way to have a proper underground garden but with appropriate costs for the benefit.

[Aldranon]

With diggers, a persons main underground base that generates heat should be considered a Mc'Donalds: I.E. 5 mins tops would be a long stay.

 

Load up the forges, chem stations and mixers, grab the semi finished items --and GO!

 

Your secondary main base maybe a kilometer away has your cooler items, workbenches, load those up, pick up finished produces and head to the traders!

 

Finally, your horde night fortress complex of above ground, bedrock and just above bedrock forts and strong points all linked with a web of subways.

 

Those zombos might not have good loot, but now they will help you get to the ore veins easily if you work it right.

[themirror]

I like the whole B option very much. It sounds very realistic.

[zackss]

I like the idea of making the underground a technical/building challenge, with some small modifications to make zombies mostly get to you by going through man made obstacles.

 

In that vein, my personal preference would be to bring back the cave systems and make digging through the rock very difficult. In that way extensive digging becomes a serious investment or late game option that is commensurate with the security benefit of having 100 block wide walls, while the cave systems provide sources of mining. Placeable terrain blocks should be some form of loose dirt or mortared stone so that the raw terrain's hardness isn't available for building, and breadcrumbs should allow zombies to find entrances and attack your man made defenses there (including attacking down).

 

Air quality should be important for any underground system, with forges and campfires degrading it, and powered devices and venting improving it. The penalty can be a temporary reduction to max stamina that increases over time and clears slowly, so early mining is viable, but deep mining or long term habitation isn't until you've teched up. Deeper layers can have better and more plentiful ores. And patches of blocks should be naturally unstable, such that they don't support much weight, but enough that they don't fall immediately when unsupported (to encourage creating mine shaft supports when mining or building).

[Kattla]

B2 sounds sorta ok, given how long it tends to rain in this game.

[OzHawkeye]

Well, for me, I'm hoping the following happens:

 

Breadcrumbs - Zombies get much better at following whatever path you took to get into your base, making underground bases not nearly as safe as they currently are.

 

Ventilation/Cooling - Underground bases require some sort of ventilation and/or cooling system without which the player takes (slowly) cumulative damage.

 

Much More Interesting Underground Underground gets (re)filled with long and dangerous cave systems and underground POI's, underground-only zombies, perilous environmental hazards (such as falls and rock slides) at the end of which is highly prized loot containers.

[NukemDed]

d 2 11 and 12

underground threats will be able to circumvemted and only add another series of micromanagement that we can do without. or at least i can do without

underground bases for me are where i store my hard won loot and bulk craft the stuff that gives you the freedom to play the way you want. if something can threaten my stash then why should i bother spending my real life valuable time playing this game and it is a game to have it lost.

horde nights are taken head on usually in an arena set up and i loot the living beep out of the world in between. i use forges and campfires to attract screamers for amusement.

i dont hide from danger i just dont want to loose my stash.

and i hate the idea of npcs stealing my stuff. if they can and do i will abandon this game.

theres already too many bastards in this world trying to take from me i dont need it in my chosen form of recreation and release

deep breath.... rant over

keep underground safeish

 

Added D13 based on this post - Moderator

[meganoth]

One principle that has to be true is that the underground should be approximately as dangerous as topside, not more dangerous.

 

Since you don't have much room to run around and it is more difficult to defend against zombies that dig their way to you, there must be some compensation. That only some zombies can dig is one. Also digging zombies should not be silent. Even better would be if you could find out the direction the zombie is coming at you by sound.

 

Also I think A4 has a lot of advantages:

 

1) It could be done so they only wake up if I'm digging (i.e. their positions are not fixed, they instead spawn with a low propability any time I dig). I would have to be careful all the time while I'm digging but if I'm only staying in an underground base the danger is greatly diminished. It shouldn't be zero, but an underground base should be as safe as a topside base without having to make a double wall design (which I consider something of an advanced design most players wont do) and the easiest way is to make zombie attacks at an underground base a seldom but dangerous event.

 

2) Sleepers are already near you so they don't need to create a cratered landscape on the surface. The danger to structural integrity is also diminished greatly if they don't need to dig long tunnels to get to you.

 

3) Digging zombies from the surface need a long time to dig tunnels to you. This might lead to you exiting again or be out of reach before they really get to you. So they despawn again. Result: One unwanted hole in the landscape more but sadly no dangerous encounter as a result (which is what we really want, right?).

 

 

In summary, A1 might be the best solution to the 3 block hole in the ground, A4 is the best solution to the boring underground everywhere else.

 

Oh yes, and caves, caves, caves. With zombies.

[meganoth]

underground bases for me are where i store my hard won loot and bulk craft the stuff that gives you the freedom to play the way you want. if something can threaten my stash then why should i bother spending my real life valuable time playing this game and it is a game to have it lost.

horde nights are taken head on usually in an arena set up and i loot the living beep out of the world in between. i use forges and campfires to attract screamers for amusement.

i dont hide from danger i just dont want to loose my stash.

 

How is that loot "hard won" if the game is so easy that you even attract screamers for amusement?

 

Seriously, don't you think you'll find other ways to safeguard your stash?

[Roland]

Remember that in A17 YOU are the target. I think an underground stash once established will be largely safe if all you do is go there to unload and reload.

 

If you are living in the same place as your loot and spending Horde night in the midst of your loot then it will be in danger.

 

As for bandits stealing your loot it would be bad game design to have it just be gone. It would be good game design to have it be gone but there’s a signed note taunting you. If you then take that note to a trader in your faction you can get the coordinates of the bandits’ base and start a quest to get your stuff back + more and exact revenge. That seems like a heck of a good time.

[Cadamier]

First off I'd like to say... "Zombie Power!" <EG> Y'all done it now...

 

I'd also like to say I and mostly 'we' are fine with whatever TFP wants and implements.

A3: Seems a bit unnecessary.

A7: "just because."

B3; Specifically: "poison gas, explosive gas, lava." For me it would seem to be 'expensive' in many aspects especially early in game. Not to mention all the 'added' things to the game that would have to be worked out...

 

B4 I'm not a fan of "Insanity" especially since my stance is: If you're in the ZA - you're either going to adapt or die and that 'should be' before the game starts! It would also mean a 'constant' check and on the players side a constant battle against insanity. "You're born and raised in the ZA! Humans greatest quality is to adapt and therefore this insanity is not necessary.

B5 - "Farming" is an integral part of the ZA... Nuff said, besides its fun and does help involve other types of players.

 

For C2 - I'd say that underground caves and POI's don't need to be too complex. Just having some would be a big bonus! I'm a great fan of C3!!!

 

For D: "Zombie Power!!! Of course they don't play fair!"

 

So here yall should see that at least some part of TFP is actually listening. As for this entire situation with underground stuff... What ever TFP wants TFP gets. I think one of the TFP guys should actually stop for a minute and take a 'bigger picture' look at all of this. I 'read' some where that underground caves and such was 'a thing' before, but there were issues. But now there's talk of environment things... That would cost a lot in my guesstimation, but the ultimate question is "Is it worth it?" For me and for us - We're fine with what ever TFP wants to throw at us. We are a unit, we are a team and we are "The Badlands Crew"

[Damocles]

As I see it, if the Player is capable of moving down to the base, the game should record that (this breadcrump system) and let the the AI characters follow that way. (The player leaving behind a scent)

 

So anytime the player gets close to the base, and then ends up in its center (forge, boxes, workbench), the path gets recorded, and serves as a guideline for the path-finding to follow that way.

 

Any doors on the way would be a natural point of attack.

 

If the path cant be followed (jumps for example) the zombies hang out at the entrance of the base.

 

This mechanic could trigger specifically when the player has a base under ground.

Could be explained with the smell of "freshly dug holes"

[Vomkat]

They should just let zombies spawn underground, same as above ground.

[unclevlad]

When I build underground, I always put in ventilation - towers to the surface will iron bars or poles at intervals to keep things from falling down. Right now, it is part of my role play, just like not keeping more meat than I can use until I have a fridge and power source. I store things underground in one location and have my crafting in another. My bedroll and emergency supplies are elsewhere. I spend most of my time above ground, and do not put my farms underground because I understand the diffusion of sunlight over distance and it just seems wrong. And, in the end, I spend most of my time above ground.

 

 

I like many of the ideas expressed that extend the game in a meaningful way. My concern is this: how will some of the ideas effect build a pillbox that is not underground? I see a lot of base designs that basically boil down to giant steel and/or concrete boxes, maybe on stilts, maybe on ground level or in the side of a cliff. No windows, or minimal windows. From the inside view, you might as well be underground. If the Pimps go with some type of environment hazard involving lack of air flow or lack of sunlight, will that apply to above ground structures as well?

[Crater Creator]

Since not everyone will notice that the top post was updated, there's now a survey everyone can take as an outgrowth of this discussion. Follow the link at the top of the page, or simply click here.

[Roland]

cool survey.

[Zvex]

My comment is that breadcrumbs shouldn't work alone. It MUST be supplemented by digging if the "scent" leads into a rock vertically below the zombie.

 

A survey is nice. As for ranking questions, I guess, less score - is better?