Underground bases - what's the status of making them vulnerable to zombies?

[JCrook1028]

Is there any reason NOT to require all indoor Campfires, Torches, Forges, GasEngines, and Chemical Fumes

to have special expensive ventilation?

 

You certainly wouldnt run a Charcoal BBQ grill in your house even if you had the windows open,

so its just silly to think you can do it in underground bunker when you cant do it in a surface building.

 

Thats what you guys are saying, right?

That you want expensive Ventilation for ALL 'no-sky-view' base fumes regardless of surface or not?

 

Call your local fire station and ask them if its OK to charcoal BBQ inside as long as you open some windows-

see what they say about Indoor Carcoal BBQs relying on open windows above ground

 

Totally agreed. Requiring such for underground only would be silly. If ventilation is added at all it needs to be universal or it just makes no sense.

[RestInPieces]

Or until they think of a good system, radiation that will apply globally 2-3 blocks under surface blocks once RWG is generated, might be easier to implement for now (?). And a radiation suit needing maintenance every once in a while.

 

As for a long-term solution, I don't think enemies will work well in the underground - at least not similar to the overworld. A combination of environmental threats could offer the same thrill as enemies - or if it has to be enemies, I'd vote for something really small - maggots for example - that spawn from inside the texture of a block, the cavern grounds/ceiling etc infecting you, sucking your blood or whatever. If collision isn't very accurate though they could fade in the textures (but it may still look like they naturally go in/out from the soil/stone).

 

Now that I mentioned maggots, would be nice to add a small threat to the easily acquired water, by adding small leeches in bodies of water, that don't even have to have AI - just spawn at shallow water and stick to the player, if he isn't careful enough to see them.

[pahbi]

Rather than magic I’m going to guess torches, forges, and workstations....

 

So certainly, *some* kind of system has to be in place to add a little excitement from time to time, I mean, whats the point of zombies if they don't stop by for tea and crumpets from time to time.

 

My annoyance with the screamers is that you can almost look at your watch and know when another screamer will spawn near your base and make a bee-line straight for it.

 

I'd like a little more randomness.

 

Back to the original topic, seems to me, given how many tens of millions of people we've buried in the ground over the years, certainly a few should show up in your underground base from time to time.

 

- P

[fragtzack]

Oh my, this topic again.

[gururise]

Would love for there to be an API for the Zombie AI that would allow modders to customize the AI using C# (or some other language). This would allow for plugins and mods to modify the zombie AI to allow for any type of gameplay!

[Katitof]

Would love for there to be an API for the Zombie AI that would allow modders to customize the AI using C# (or some other language). This would allow for plugins and mods to modify the zombie AI to allow for any type of gameplay!

 

Or devs would have to add a digger type of zombie into the game, so moles will hear scratching at ceiling and then horde will drop on them.

[fragtzack]

Rather than magic I’m going to guess torches, forges, and workstations....

 

To people having problems with screamers constantly attacking base:

 

Stop building forges, mixed, etc at your main base. Build a little satellite base about 100-150 away from your main base. I simply build an elevated platform. See here is the thing... Screamers will be attracted to the heat of your forge but will not destroy forge since they won't detect you near by. The screamers will wander around wondering what to do. This allows you to snipe the screamers from a far or wait until the forge burns out. After the forge burns out, you will need to leave your current chunk then come back to see the screamers gone.

 

Exploit? Sure.

 

Should TFP fix this? Yes

 

Screamers should attack forges/mixers regardless of player near by or call in a special zombie type to do so.

[Shelgeyr]

Here's my problem with the idea of zombies digging underground : it makes underground bases impossible to defend.

 

Above-ground, you can surround your base with any or all the crafting system offers.

Spike pits topped with barbed-wire and electric fences, backed up by shotgun/auto turrets and sniper perches from which players can practice their marksmanship skills - you name it, it's perfectly viable.

 

Underground, none of these things work unless you hollow out a massive cavern within which to build a standard surface-style base.

I don't know about the other mole people, but that's not how I build when I go underground. I carve out my living/working spaces and line the floors/walls/ceilings with whatever material strikes my fancy.

If "digging zombies" becomes a thing, they will be a thing we can't do anything about until they're actually inside our bases - unless we completely redesign our dwellings to create that open space that's necessary to implement proper defenses, at which point we might as well build on the surface because underground dwelling will have become objectively worse than staying above.

 

As it stands, underground bases provide a reward for effort that's similar to farming. It takes a lot of time & work to create one, but it's worth doing because it makes you safe. You sacrifice the thrills and rewards of fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night in exchange for the "snoozefest" of simply enjoying that continued existence without having to fight for it. Stilt bases provide the exact same benefit, provided you build high enough to be out of vomit range.

 

If you think half of the world is effectively closed-off to you now because it's "too safe" or "too boring" to live there - you have the option of simply not going there. What's going to happen if that part of the world is made equally (arguably more) dangerous, however, is that a lot of players will have had their "safe zone" forcibly taken away from them.

 

Should building underground have additional complications? Absolutely! I just don't want to see the option become less appealing/viable than the alternative.

I rather like the idea of ventilation requirements, and completely agree they should be universally applicable rather than only being enforced underground. It'll take more work to ventilate deep dwellings, just as it takes more work to create underground farms, so the system shouldn't require any artificial balancing measures.

The idea of underground radiation which can be negated by protective measures is problematic in my opinion because

• Hazmat gear cannot be crafted, so your ability to safely go underground will be directly linked to RNG
  
• Once the player has hazmat gear (or has lined the base with lead blocks, or crafted radon scrubbers, etc) the problem completely vanishes

I also like the idea of requiring periodic surface time, getting fresh air and sunshine - but as with the ventilation concept, I don't think it should be strictly an "underground vs aboveground" consideration. If you're spending all of your time completely surrounded by concrete, the elevation of your residence is immaterial.

 

My suggestion? Implement two new systems:

• Air - exactly as Pinz suggested, make improperly ventilated areas behave as though they were underwater.
  
  • Ventilation shafts to work in much the same way that we bring light to underground farms with perhaps a greater effective radius, which can be further expanded upon with powered machinery.
    
  • Windows & doors adjacent to air blocks which have line-of-sight to the sky can be treated as air blocks, meaning surface dwellings with good window-to-area ratios won't have any problems at all.
    
  • Lastly, to make it possible for players to improve on their ability to function underwater and in poorly-ventilated areas, give us a breathing skill which functions like survivor and camel.

  [*]Sunlight - to be handled in fashion similar to hunger & thirst.

  • Extended stays underground or cooped up indoors will drain this meter, eventually causing an erosion of your wellness.
    
  • Replenish the meter by spending time outdoors when the sun is shining.
    
  • Meter neither drains nor replenishes while outdoors at night or during bad weather.

Feel the need to contend with zombies, despite your base being 40 meters underground? I have no problem with their AI being tweaked to make them much more interested in doors, hatches, and tunnels. Force me to trap/defend my entrances in order to keep the undead out of my home sweet home, but don't let them dig through native rock to get to me.

[Roland]

Here's my problem with the idea of zombies digging underground : it makes underground bases impossible to defend.

 

Above-ground, you can surround your base with any or all the crafting system offers.

Spike pits topped with barbed-wire and electric fences, backed up by shotgun/auto turrets and sniper perches from which players can practice their marksmanship skills - you name it, it's perfectly viable.

 

Underground, none of these things work unless you hollow out a massive cavern within which to build a standard surface-style base.

I don't know about the other mole people, but that's not how I build when I go underground. I carve out my living/working spaces and line the floors/walls/ceilings with whatever material strikes my fancy.

If "digging zombies" becomes a thing, they will be a thing we can't do anything about until they're actually inside our bases - unless we completely redesign our dwellings to create that open space that's necessary to implement proper defenses, at which point we might as well build on the surface because underground dwelling will have become objectively worse than staying above.

 

Good point about not being able to fight zombies until they are literally at or in your walls. To be fair, there are going to be quite a few blocks for them to tunnel through before they ever get to your walls and rather than filling up tunnels, it would behoove the underground player to trap and defend those tunnels as natural funnels for the zombies. Especially with the way the new pathing is described, once a few tunnels are established the zombies are going to naturally follow those paths of least resistance. You can use that to your advantage and come up with ways to make them pay for every inch they progress.

 

As it stands, underground bases provide a reward for effort that's similar to farming. It takes a lot of time & work to create one, but it's worth doing because it makes you safe. You sacrifice the thrills and rewards of fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night in exchange for the "snoozefest" of simply enjoying that continued existence without having to fight for it. Stilt bases provide the exact same benefit, provided you build high enough to be out of vomit range.

 

"Snoozefest" is not my word to simply describe horde night. It is my word to describe ALL current aspects of playing in the underworld. There is literally zero challenge to any part of it and it is a missed opportunity. I'm not sure why you would try and use stilt bases as a reason to keep the underworld boring. Those need to be handled as well and faatal DOES plan on doing so. Safety from horde night is definitely a legitimate playstyle option and TFP plans to provide the means for that but a 100% safe zone doesn't have to be a stilt base or a bedrock bunker.

 

If you think half of the world is effectively closed-off to you now because it's "too safe" or "too boring" to live there - you have the option of simply not going there. What's going to happen if that part of the world is made equally (arguably more) dangerous, however, is that a lot of players will have had their "safe zone" forcibly taken away from them.

 

I don't think half the world is closed off to me. I think half the world is closed off to survival threats...in a survival game. I do exercise the option of not going there. Duh. The point is that I want to go there AND have fun there AND be challenged there AND be worried about my survival there. Its like people asking for the option to walk around and stand and have conversations on the track in a formula one racing game and while they're being social there can't be any races on the track for those who have a car. You bought a racing game so get in a car and race. I don't feel one bit of remorse removing a safe zone as large as the one that needs to be removed and introducing survival elements to that zone-- especially if another safe zone option is planned to be provided. I bought a survival game and not Sims--The Mole People.

 

Guess what? You can't develop a relationship by giving gifts to the stripper zombies and eventually marrying one. Sorry to all you folks who came here expecting a Stardew Valley experience since TFP is forcibly denying you that playstyle. I guess the devs could put it in and those who don't want to marry a stripper zombie can just choose to ignore that part of the game...

 

Should building underground have additional complications? Absolutely! I just don't want to see the option become less appealing/viable than the alternative.

 

Impossible. Anything they do will be more appealing to some and less appealing to others. Digging zombies is more appealing to me but less appealing to you. All the suggestions you outlined at the end are things you find interesting but others would see as tedious. See? All they can do is make their choices and see who sticks around for vanilla, who spices it up with modding, and who leaves altogether. Best is to put it in and allow modding to remove it for those who don't want it and/or include options

[Jost Amman]

IMO the only way to make underground interesting is with this one:

 

[Blazer777]

triple reinforced steel walls and roof try me now

[ravend]

Or devs would have to add a digger type of zombie into the game, so moles will hear scratching at ceiling and then horde will drop on them.

 

Becareful what you are asking for. What can be used against underground based can be used for above ground. Think of tunnlers bypassing the barded wire and walls and turrets easily.

Think of tunnlers toppling a mushroom base without resistance. Or on horde night getting acouple destroying your hangout before midnight. It would be hard manage and deal with them.

[Psychodabble]

Here's my problem with the idea of zombies digging underground : it makes underground bases impossible to defend.

 

Above-ground, you can surround your base with any or all the crafting system offers.

Spike pits topped with barbed-wire and electric fences, backed up by shotgun/auto turrets and sniper perches from which players can practice their marksmanship skills - you name it, it's perfectly viable.

 

Underground, none of these things work unless you hollow out a massive cavern within which to build a standard surface-style base.

I don't know about the other mole people, but that's not how I build when I go underground. I carve out my living/working spaces and line the floors/walls/ceilings with whatever material strikes my fancy.

If "digging zombies" becomes a thing, they will be a thing we can't do anything about until they're actually inside our bases - unless we completely redesign our dwellings to create that open space that's necessary to implement proper defenses, at which point we might as well build on the surface because underground dwelling will have become objectively worse than staying above.

 

As it stands, underground bases provide a reward for effort that's similar to farming. It takes a lot of time & work to create one, but it's worth doing because it makes you safe. You sacrifice the thrills and rewards of fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night in exchange for the "snoozefest" of simply enjoying that continued existence without having to fight for it. Stilt bases provide the exact same benefit, provided you build high enough to be out of vomit range.

 

If you think half of the world is effectively closed-off to you now because it's "too safe" or "too boring" to live there - you have the option of simply not going there. What's going to happen if that part of the world is made equally (arguably more) dangerous, however, is that a lot of players will have had their "safe zone" forcibly taken away from them.

 

Should building underground have additional complications? Absolutely! I just don't want to see the option become less appealing/viable than the alternative.

I rather like the idea of ventilation requirements, and completely agree they should be universally applicable rather than only being enforced underground. It'll take more work to ventilate deep dwellings, just as it takes more work to create underground farms, so the system shouldn't require any artificial balancing measures.

The idea of underground radiation which can be negated by protective measures is problematic in my opinion because

• Hazmat gear cannot be crafted, so your ability to safely go underground will be directly linked to RNG
  
• Once the player has hazmat gear (or has lined the base with lead blocks, or crafted radon scrubbers, etc) the problem completely vanishes

I also like the idea of requiring periodic surface time, getting fresh air and sunshine - but as with the ventilation concept, I don't think it should be strictly an "underground vs aboveground" consideration. If you're spending all of your time completely surrounded by concrete, the elevation of your residence is immaterial.

 

My suggestion? Implement two new systems:

• Air - exactly as Pinz suggested, make improperly ventilated areas behave as though they were underwater.
  
  • Ventilation shafts to work in much the same way that we bring light to underground farms with perhaps a greater effective radius, which can be further expanded upon with powered machinery.
    
  • Windows & doors adjacent to air blocks which have line-of-sight to the sky can be treated as air blocks, meaning surface dwellings with good window-to-area ratios won't have any problems at all.
    
  • Lastly, to make it possible for players to improve on their ability to function underwater and in poorly-ventilated areas, give us a breathing skill which functions like survivor and camel.

  [*]Sunlight - to be handled in fashion similar to hunger & thirst.

  • Extended stays underground or cooped up indoors will drain this meter, eventually causing an erosion of your wellness.
    
  • Replenish the meter by spending time outdoors when the sun is shining.
    
  • Meter neither drains nor replenishes while outdoors at night or during bad weather.

Feel the need to contend with zombies, despite your base being 40 meters underground? I have no problem with their AI being tweaked to make them much more interested in doors, hatches, and tunnels. Force me to trap/defend my entrances in order to keep the undead out of my home sweet home, but don't let them dig through native rock to get to me.

 

[Sterl500]

If ventilation or some other requirement for fumes, O2/CO2, etc, makes it's way into the game, it needs to be fairly simple and super accessible. For example, it could be as simple as making a window near the top of a room and placing a passive fan that spins via airflow and sucks the fumes out. All you'd need is a bit of scrap iron and maybe some tallow or oil. Same goes for underground. Have a simple method of progression and a couple varieties of options and the option to pick up working machinery from mine POIs. Stuff like PVC pipes that can be placed as wall and floor textures and O2 pumps run by steam engines fed by coal. Have some, most or all of this integrated into the Miner 69er perk so it becomes a natural progression curve.

 

I also think we should be integrating natural gas into the game. Allow us to harvest deposits similar to shale with pumps above or below ground. This way we can also add a hazard to tunneling underground haphazardly. You'd be forced to use non-flammable lights and avoid sparks that come from mining iron deposits. Also it could provide the suffocation aspect that others were talking about if you're not keeping careful track of your O2 network. The upshot to natural gas is that we could use it to power grills that create less heat than a campfire. We could also make traps and bombs with wider range. Heck, we could even make lamps and other illumination run on gas, and it should be the most efficient fuel for the Chemistry Station.

 

As for making underground bases unsafe, why? Let other players play their way. If you feel like it's risk free, take more risks and don't build underground. If you find yourself gravitating towards a certain play style, that's not the game's fault, that's just how you like to play. Playing underground is not some bulletproof strategy. It takes a lot of work and massive XP requirements to do anything in a timely manner. You have to plan your anthill to avoid fixing organization mistakes and memorize your entry and exit strategies. Plus finding ore deposits is kind of a crapshoot without prospecting the surface gravel. Even doing that means you have to tunnel over thataway and that's even more time and effort spent.

 

By the time you can sink your points into things to slay zeds with, you're already on day 40 at level 70 or so with no real weapon skill levels to speak of. You're playing a deadly game of catch up with people who decided to play above ground in that respect. Making a play style harder is not necessarily the way to go. It's way better to evolve it with rewarding mechanics and I think adding more natural dangers and rewards to underground players is the way to go.

[Cadamier]

Here's one thing about 'digger zeds' - if they start tunneling through water, then enter your base... I know the water is currently broken, but when it gets fixed? Opps! I think it should drain the water source and wash out almost everything... <EG>

 

Ventilation? Don't matter, but it does need to be accessible at some point.

 

Radiation in the ground? No... It would restrict access to mining to a large degree because of the requirements for 'rad protected' equipment and clothing, etc... Also - it would possibly kill off a bunch of 'new players' to the game. But it would be a 'good' hazard if implemented 'better' throughout the game.

 

This is supposed to be a "tower defense" type game isn't it?

 

When I go underground its almost only for mining and then 'travel tunnels' for access to my forges, work stations and such. And they're 'far away' from 'my main base.' I do put sniper towers around the forges. I've even gone so far as to add a hole up to the forges so I can access them at night.

 

Someone said something about the 'tunnel zeds' possibly going under your defenses.... YUP! That would require us to account for that possibility, that's fine.

 

One thing that I'd like to see is a process or processes that account for zed, loot and item spawning in regards to day and level of the player(s). I think it would add a balance to the game, but would be time consuming to add. But also with that it would be nice to still be able to at a very low percentage to get an auger or chainsaw at a low level. lol

[SylenThunder]

Here's one thing about 'digger zeds' - if they start tunneling through water, then enter your base... I know the water is currently broken, but when it gets fixed? Opps! I think it should drain the water source and wash out almost everything... <EG>

...

See, here's the thing......

 

That was the original idea behind the vault doors. You would need them to prevent your underground base from flooding when it rained. The idea was that rain would start to fill your tunnel with water.

Once water was fixed.....

[Shelgeyr]

As it stands, underground bases provide a reward for effort that's similar to farming. It takes a lot of time & work to create one, but it's worth doing because it makes you safe. You sacrifice the thrills and rewards of fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night in exchange for the "snoozefest" of simply enjoying that continued existence without having to fight for it. Stilt bases provide the exact same benefit, provided you build high enough to be out of vomit range.

"Snoozefest" is not my word to simply describe horde night. It is my word to describe ALL current aspects of playing in the underworld. There is literally zero challenge to any part of it and it is a missed opportunity. I'm not sure why you would try and use stilt bases as a reason to keep the underworld boring. Those need to be handled as well and faatal DOES plan on doing so. Safety from horde night is definitely a legitimate playstyle option and TFP plans to provide the means for that but a 100% safe zone doesn't have to be a stilt base or a bedrock bunker.

Oh believe me, I understood your meaning. I used "snoozefest" to describe "simply enjoying that continued existence" and offered "fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night" as the contrast because in my experience, even with an above-ground base, you only really need to "fight for your survival" on those nights. The rest of the time, there's really very little threat unless you're in the habit of doing unsafe things like wandering around outside at night or picking fights with dire wolves and zombie bears.

 

If you think half of the world is effectively closed-off to you now because it's "too safe" or "too boring" to live there - you have the option of simply not going there. What's going to happen if that part of the world is made equally (arguably more) dangerous, however, is that a lot of players will have had their "safe zone" forcibly taken away from them.

I don't think half the world is closed off to me. I think half the world is closed off to survival threats...in a survival game. I do exercise the option of not going there. Duh. The point is that I want to go there AND have fun there AND be challenged there AND be worried about my survival there.

Again, I totally understood what you were saying. I didn't say you think half the world is closed-off to you, I suggested that it's effectively closed-off by nature of not living up to your desire for threat level.

 

Its like people asking for the option to walk around and stand and have conversations on the track in a formula one racing game and while they're being social there can't be any races on the track for those who have a car. You bought a racing game so get in a car and race. I don't feel one bit of remorse removing a safe zone as large as the one that needs to be removed and introducing survival elements to that zone-- especially if another safe zone option is planned to be provided. I bought a survival game and not Sims--The Mole People.

 

Guess what? You can't develop a relationship by giving gifts to the stripper zombies and eventually marrying one. Sorry to all you folks who came here expecting a Stardew Valley experience since TFP is forcibly denying you that playstyle. I guess the devs could put it in and those who don't want to marry a stripper zombie can just choose to ignore that part of the game...

Here I'm going to have to say it sounds like you're simply being condescending, and that's neither polite nor constructive. Nobody is asking to romance the stripper zombies (clearly the nurses are the better choice, duh) and I don't think that having underground bases be safe from zombie attacks is anything like holding tea parties on a Formula One track.

For one thing, all of our underground bases could in fact exist in the same game world as all of your aboveground bases without actually creating a direct conflict, which means the analogy is more akin to holding tea parties in the big grassy field at the center of an oval NASCAR track. And secondly, as we're talking about an unconnected collection of single-player games, what someone else does in their world has no direct impact on what you do in yours. However, by insisting that a universal rules change be implemented to suit your needs, you are effectively lobbying to have a minefield built inside that NASCAR track to block off any tea party potential.

 

Should building underground have additional complications? Absolutely! I just don't want to see the option become less appealing/viable than the alternative.

Impossible. Anything they do will be more appealing to some and less appealing to others.

Here, you're misinterpreting what I've said.

I did not say I don't want underground bases to become less appealing to me. I said I don't want underground bases to become less appealing and/or viable than aboveground bases.

Specifically, I'm asking for systems that present underground dwellers with specific challenges that balance the benefits they offer in a way that makes them no longer the "idiot-proof 100% safe" option they are today without making them so dangerous that staying aboveground is the safer course by comparison.

 

Digging zombies is more appealing to me but less appealing to you. All the suggestions you outlined at the end are things you find interesting but others would see as tedious. See? All they can do is make their choices and see who sticks around for vanilla, who spices it up with modding, and who leaves altogether. Best is to put it in and allow modding to remove it for those who don't want it and/or include options

Am I correctly understanding that your entire argument boils down to "you don't like my ideas and I don't like yours, so let's go with mine" ? Because honestly, that's what it sounds like.

I apologize if that's not what you're saying, but that is genuinely what I feel I'm hearing.

 

Good point about not being able to fight zombies until they are literally at or in your walls. To be fair, there are going to be quite a few blocks for them to tunnel through before they ever get to your walls and rather than filling up tunnels, it would behoove the underground player to trap and defend those tunnels as natural funnels for the zombies.

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this. I mean, to be fair there are "quite a few blocks" of air for normal zombies to walk through before they ever get to the walls of your above-ground base, too. The point is that, above-ground, traps and other defenses can be established to defend those last few that are truly important. Below-ground, the only way to establish a perimeter around one's base would be to hollow out a cavern to create that same open-space area within which to build those same defenses. The big difference, of course, would be that an underground base would have to be defended from overhead approach angles as well - something that wouldn't really be needed on the surface unless zombies sprout wings.

 

Especially with the way the new pathing is described, once a few tunnels are established the zombies are going to naturally follow those paths of least resistance. You can use that to your advantage and come up with ways to make them pay for every inch they progress.

And here we find a point of agreement, although I feel my closing statement got lumped together with the other suggestions you dismissed as something "I find interesting but you find tedious".

In case you missed it, I said

Feel the need to contend with zombies, despite your base being 40 meters underground? I have no problem with their AI being tweaked to make them much more interested in doors, hatches, and tunnels. Force me to trap/defend my entrances in order to keep the undead out of my home sweet home, but don't let them dig through native rock to get to me.

 

 

Let's be clear, here - what I'm objecting to is the idea that zombie hordes should ever simultaneously possess both the "homing" feature of 7th-night AI and the ability to approach me in a manner against which I cannot defend.

If all zombies can dig, I'll never build underground because those bunkers become claustrophobic death traps to me.

If only a few zombie types can dig, but those zombies make up a portion of the 7th night hordes, the situation is the same.

If a new variety of "tunnel rat" zombie is introduced and these zombies are only ever encountered underground, where they spend their existence digging pathways for themselves that will occasionally intersect with player-dug tunnels or mineshafts, I think I could live with that. Let them be attracted to the sounds of my pickaxe, or the crafting activities at my base. Maybe even let them know where I am on Horde Nights so they can come my way, but if you let them become the vanguard of a subterranean assault, you're not balancing underground bases - you're penalizing them.

[Roland]

As for making underground bases unsafe, why? Let other players play their way. If you feel like it's risk free, take more risks and don't build underground.

 

You are literally telling an entire group of people who want underground risks to not play their way. Why can't YOU let other players play their way?

 

This argument is pointless for two reasons:

 

1) No matter who gets what they want it will be forcibly denying others the play style they want.

 

2) Madmole has already stated that the underworld in wilderness areas will eventually not be 100% safe once they have settlements in the game where you can get your 100% safety if you want it. He also said that eventually stealth perks and skills could make it so a player is undetectable on horde night so those who want to go that route could build above or below and avoid hordes if they wish.

[Roland]

Oh believe me, I understood your meaning. I used "snoozefest" to describe "simply enjoying that continued existence" and offered "fighting for your continued existence every Horde Night" as the contrast because in my experience, even with an above-ground base, you only really need to "fight for your survival" on those nights. The rest of the time, there's really very little threat unless you're in the habit of doing unsafe things like wandering around outside at night or picking fights with dire wolves and zombie bears.

 

I see. I am all for threats and challenges all the time and not just horde nights. I did read your suggestions on such environmental threats and having zombies be attracted to tunnels, tunnel entrances, and hatches and I think those are great suggestions. I also think the gps horde should assault you on blood moon nights if you are underground and if Madmole delivers a stealth perk that makes you undetectable on horde night then that would be the best solution for everyone. You could purchase that perk and be 100% safe underground and I would forgo that perk and have to defend my subterranean base. Both of us get to live underground and have the gameplay we desire.

 

Again, I totally understood what you were saying. I didn't say you think half the world is closed-off to you, I suggested that it's effectively closed-off by nature of not living up to your desire for threat level.

 

Yeah, and your "solution" was for me to just choose not to play there...

 

Here I'm going to have to say it sounds like you're simply being condescending, and that's neither polite nor constructive. Nobody is asking to romance the stripper zombies (clearly the nurses are the better choice, duh) and I don't think that having underground bases be safe from zombie attacks is anything like holding tea parties on a Formula One track.

For one thing, all of our underground bases could in fact exist in the same game world as all of your aboveground bases without actually creating a direct conflict, which means the analogy is more akin to holding tea parties in the big grassy field at the center of an oval NASCAR track. And secondly, as we're talking about an unconnected collection of single-player games, what someone else does in their world has no direct impact on what you do in yours. However, by insisting that a universal rules change be implemented to suit your needs, you are effectively lobbying to have a minefield built inside that NASCAR track to block off any tea party potential.

 

I didn't mean to be condescending but I do find it ridiculous that people purchase games that claim to be one thing and then they demand that they be something else. I was simply drawing a parallel between a person who purchases a racing game but then doesn't want to drive a car and someone who purchases a survival base defense game but then doesn't want survival elements or any kind of base defense...

 

If my analogy was off it at least revealed one thing. You (and perhaps the rest with your point of view) see the underworld as the grassy oval in the middle of the racing track. That's why you can't understand why people like me are being selfish by driving off the track and tearing up the grassy area in the middle when there is no need to drive there. "Just stay on the racing track if you want to race" is what you are effectively telling us. I can understand how someone who has played a lot of static world games wouldn't be used to the idea of voxel world games and not intuitively get that in a voxel world the underworld is a major part of the track.

 

So this game is a game about survival and base defense from an insidious zombie threat AND it is a voxel world in which tunneling and playing in the underworld is as much part of the gamespace as the overworld (which is very different than most other non-voxel games) When, I gave my analogy I was visualizing people having their tea party out on the track preventing those who bought a racing game the ability to race. You immediately visualized them off the track. Well, the problem is that the underworld is not off the track. It is an integral part of creating this world in a voxel framework and telling people to just choose not to play there is not the same thing as saying don't drive the car up in the spectator stands...

 

Here, you're misinterpreting what I've said.

I did not say I don't want underground bases to become less appealing to me. I said I don't want underground bases to become less appealing and/or viable than aboveground bases.

Specifically, I'm asking for systems that present underground dwellers with specific challenges that balance the benefits they offer in a way that makes them no longer the "idiot-proof 100% safe" option they are today without making them so dangerous that staying aboveground is the safer course by comparison.

 

Am I correctly understanding that your entire argument boils down to "you don't like my ideas and I don't like yours, so let's go with mine" ? Because honestly, that's what it sounds like.

I apologize if that's not what you're saying, but that is genuinely what I feel I'm hearing.

 

Sorry that I did not communicate myself well enough. I am not talking about you and me. I am talking about people who prefer A and other people who prefer B and other people who prefer C and you can't make everyone happy. I liked a lot of your ideas which is why I didn't quote them and give counterpoints to them. But there is sure to be someone in "Group C" that will hate your ideas and if they get implemented will feel oppressed and forcibly denied the playstyle they want because you and I got what we wanted. There is someone in "Group D" that will call your ideas tedious instead of interesting and grindy instead of engaging just as there are those who hate what I am saying in my point of view. It doesn't mean we don't put forward our ideas and pick apart the ideas of others we don't agree with but it does mean that using the argument of "You are trying to force other players to your play style" is hypocritical and pointless. Yes I am. Yes you are. Yes everyone is. And whoever gets their way will feel vindicated and everyone else will lament that the devs "ruined the game by listening to a small outspoken faction of the overall community"....

 

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this. I mean, to be fair there are "quite a few blocks" of air for normal zombies to walk through before they ever get to the walls of your above-ground base, too.

 

Time, grasshopper. The difference between passing through blocks of air and blocks of dirt and rock is the time it takes to do it.

 

The point is that, above-ground, traps and other defenses can be established to defend those last few that are truly important. Below-ground, the only way to establish a perimeter around one's base would be to hollow out a cavern to create that same open-space area within which to build those same defenses. The big difference, of course, would be that an underground base would have to be defended from overhead approach angles as well - something that wouldn't really be needed on the surface unless zombies sprout wings.

 

You are oversimplifying it. I can think of three ways to design an underground bunker that would allow me to defend before they are in my base proper or at least make it so the majority get funneled to a place of my choosing-- and necessity is the mother of invention. I have no doubt additional strategies would evolve. And that is the whole point of the fun (for people in my faction) of the base defense aspect of the game-- figuring out how to defend. Right now the game has granted us a bubble of protection completely negating the need to design with base defense in mind and, again, when I say this my perspective is that I bought a base defense game in a voxel world meaning that the underworld counts as a major part of the gamespace.

 

And here we find a point of agreement, although I feel my closing statement got lumped together with the other suggestions you dismissed as something "I find interesting but you find tedious".

 

Not me. Some people. Guaranteed, some people will find your ideas genius and others will hate them with burning fire of 1000 suns. If we implemented all the ideas you felt were your best ones there would be rant threads about how your ideas are preventing them from playing the way they like.

 

In case you missed it, I said

 

 

Let's be clear, here - what I'm objecting to is the idea that zombie hordes should ever simultaneously possess both the "homing" feature of 7th-night AI and the ability to approach me in a manner against which I cannot defend.

If all zombies can dig, I'll never build underground because those bunkers become claustrophobic death traps to me.

If only a few zombie types can dig, but those zombies make up a portion of the 7th night hordes, the situation is the same.

If a new variety of "tunnel rat" zombie is introduced and these zombies are only ever encountered underground, where they spend their existence digging pathways for themselves that will occasionally intersect with player-dug tunnels or mineshafts, I think I could live with that. Let them be attracted to the sounds of my pickaxe, or the crafting activities at my base. Maybe even let them know where I am on Horde Nights so they can come my way, but if you let them become the vanguard of a subterranean assault, you're not balancing underground bases - you're penalizing them.

 

Not if there is a stealth perk people can purchase to negate the homing of the zombies....

[Cadamier]

See, here's the thing......

 

That was the original idea behind the vault doors. You would need them to prevent your underground base from flooding when it rained. The idea was that rain would start to fill your tunnel with water.

Once water was fixed.....

 

AHH!! Cool! Didn't know that.

[Sterl500]

You are literally telling an entire group of people who want underground risks to not play their way. Why can't YOU let other players play their way?

 

Well, we're at an impasse then, because I feel like the underground is fine as it is even though I don't personally dig the style myself. If the developers want to make it more difficult then I guess they want to make it more difficult. You want to talk about bunk arguments, people like you say all the time that "Madmole says 'x'" when they know damn well that developers talk about their ideas all the time. Ideas are just that and they get scrapped or moved around by the hour. We could be looking at a harder underground in the works years down the line or maybe it never happens.

 

For now, players need to exercise self-restraint to prevent burnout. If you don't like how easy or hard something is, there's options out the ass for it. I doubt the game is ever going to get to the point where things are completely balanced. The underground is ALWAYS going to be safer than living above ground by simple virtue that there's literally half a mile of natural stone between you and the threats. It would be absolutely ridiculous to shoehorn in baloney challenge because players want to put in as much work as possible to minimize the zombie threat.

 

So yeah, play the game like it exists now and don't give intentionally obtuse feedback because you personally think the underground play style is too easy. Let the developers handle it, that's all I'm saying.

[Roland]

Well, we're at an impasse then, because I feel like the underground is fine as it is even though I don't personally dig the style myself. If the developers want to make it more difficult then I guess they want to make it more difficult. You want to talk about bunk arguments, people like you say all the time that "Madmole says 'x'" when they know damn well that developers talk about their ideas all the time. Ideas are just that and they get scrapped or moved around by the hour. We could be looking at a harder underground in the works years down the line or maybe it never happens.

 

True that plans change. No denying that. But all we can go on is what is currently planned and the most recent plan revealed to us. You’re saying nobody should discuss anything because the future is just a milieu of chaos? Should nobody discuss bandits since it’s always possible they could get canned?

 

For now, players need to exercise self-restraint to prevent burnout. If you don't like how easy or hard something is, there's options out the ass for it.

 

Not for the underworld there isn’t. Once again you people return to the line of “if you don’t like it do something else”. I’m not looking for ways to increase difficulty of topside. I want more challenge in the underworld and then I want to play there. There are no mods to make zombies dig or add lava or natural gas pockets or complex cave systems or underground POIs because it can’t currently be done unless the devs lay the groundwork for it. If there was a mod for it I’d be satisfied. What options out of what ass are you referring to for greater underworld challenges?

 

 

I doubt the game is ever going to get to the point where things are completely balanced. The underground is ALWAYS going to be safer than living above ground by simple virtue that there's literally half a mile of natural stone between you and the threats. It would be absolutely ridiculous to shoehorn in baloney challenge because players want to put in as much work as possible to minimize the zombie threat.

 

I’d be fine with the underground having less challenge than the overland—anything more than zero (now) would be appreciated. No work by devs needs to be done to try and equalize the challenge. As long as something is in place for modders to go crazy on I’m happy.

 

So yeah, play the game like it exists now and don't give intentionally obtuse feedback because you personally think the underground play style is too easy. Let the developers handle it, that's all I'm saying.

 

It has to be obtuse. I signed a nondisclosure agreement....

 

[Guppycur]

@Roland

 

Ever get the sense that you're more interested in winning an argument than you are discussing a subject?

 

Just curious.

[Roland]

@Roland

 

Ever get the sense that you're more interested in winning an argument than you are discussing a subject?

 

Just curious.

 

could be.....

[Sterl500]

It has to be obtuse. I signed a nondisclosure agreement....

 

 

I wasn't specifically referring to you and obtuse does not mean obscure or vague. It means annoyingly insensitive and slow to understand. Basically giving out convoluted and unrealistic feedback that fails to realistically address the complaint. This is usually due to the complainer not knowing what they want. Obtuse feedback is some of the worst kind of feedback for developers because any changes that address the complaint are usually met initially with contempt and even more complaints. This is the kind of stuff distributed by the loudest and most ridiculous part of a fan base.

 

And the solution to the lack of underground challenge right now is to just not play completely underground. Again, self-restraint. It's the same sort of complaint that comes from people who have an issue with constantly cheating in a game where they want the developers to give an option to completely disable the console so they don't need to exercise self-restraint. Aside from that, change block durability, increase zombie difficulty, choose a more difficult location, etc. The game is already hyper customizable. Consistently griping about an issue like this is not doing anyone any good.

 

And by all means discuss, but if the first kind of response you give to anyone who criticizes difficulty fiends amounts to "no u", you're going to get low quality discussions. Especially if all you're going to do is argue semantics and "gotcha" replies.