Should mods be removable? Pros and Cons.

[Roland]

The roots of this game are just playing naturally. But that was before the skills, perks, and gates were added. Now, "playing naturally" means you're often fighting a couple zombies with a crappy wooden weapon, unable to build anything until you get some cobblestone. It's real fun harvesting that with orange tools.

 

That is a pretty gross generalization. I never build cobblestone with orange tools. I play nomad and hole up in existing structures during the first week and through the first bloodmoon horde. In my current playthrough I just hit level 20 on day 8 and now have yellow tools and I plan to build my cobblestone initial base for the Day 14 horde. In past games I've built a treehouse that got me through day 14, I've played nomad up to day 21, I've built a base in the apartment building that was pretty much impregnible because of its size, and I could have even built underground if it wasn't so friggin boring to do so. Point is, there are still lots of viable strategies and fun and different ways to play other than grinding out a cobblestone base on day 3 or 4 with orange tools.

 

 

When players are resorting to unintended mechanics to work around the game's restrictions, it is always most useful to look at the reasons WHY they are doing such things.

 

It is always the wrong call to focus on what they are doing and disable it, while completely ignoring the why. This always harms the game in the long run.

 

Its not a mystery. Some players simply like to rush to the end game because they don't like the early days of primitive and crappy gear-- at all. As you've said, those players have the option to enable the Sandbox Mode to help themselves skip the progression and gift themselves the gear they like to play with. There are quite a lot of people who enjoy a slow progression and like eking out an existence with junk at first so that by comparison later they really appreciate the change to higher tier tools and weapons. Some of those people include the developers...

 

Now to the subject at hand:

 

I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers. That is going to please some and disappoint others. If they go this route and never create an option to bypass it make everything swappable or nothing swappable I don't believe it will harm the game. In truth I think such a simplistic all on or all off would be more harmful if they took the time to design the mods into groups that are field swapped, workbench swapped, and irreversible. That design has more depth to it.

 

Now if they decide to go the simpler route of either all can be swapped or all are permanent, THEN I do believe an option to toggle would be the right move.

[toores]

So this thread is about mods, huh..

 

Off topic for a sec:

I like the new perk system better then spam crafting. Although it makes sense to get better on the things you repeat, spam crafting takes you away from the game - to the meta game. Gameplay wise, perks seem like a better way to progress.

 

I would actually make skills like "Mining tools" un-purchasable and only obtained through use.

And i would ditch skills like "Miner 69-er" that are not voluntary but more like a gate to using steel weapons at all. Instead add perks that open up at certain "Mining tools" levels and give different ways your character may want to go.

For example:

Mining speed vs. durability

Craft steel tools on the go vs. Craft steel cheaper

 

Roland, any chance TFP will share some of their plans for the upgraded attributes/perk/progression system? That would be good stuff to argue over. Might even yield some good ideas...

 

Back to topic.

I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers. That is going to please some and disappoint others. If they go this route and never create an option to bypass it make everything swappable or nothing swappable I don't believe it will harm the game. In truth I think such a simplistic all on or all off would be more harmful if they took the time to design the mods into groups that are field swapped, workbench swapped, and irreversible. That design has more depth to it.

 

Now if they decide to go the simpler route of either all can be swapped or all are permanent, THEN I do believe an option to toggle would be the right move.

 

I think this is the best way to go.

It feels more natural if it works similar to real life.

[Kage848]

Should mod be removable?

 

It depends really on the drop rate really. Getting that awesome magazine extender and putting it on a 2 quality gun will really sting when you then loot a 4 quality gun. If the mods are common I don't think it will matter much.

 

I'd say they should be removable but it should cost something. Maybe a special tool or material that would be harder to find? Like a special oil? An oil you will only find a little of and is used when removing the mod so you have to think about it and plan. Or a tool that uses durability for the mod removal.

 

Or a weapon bench lvl gates at 100? Something like that.

[toores]

Should mod be removable?

 

It depends really on the drop rate really. Getting that awesome magazine extender and putting it on a 2 quality gun will really sting when you then loot a 4 quality gun. If the mods are common I don't think it will matter much.

 

I'd say they should be removable but it should cost something. Maybe a special tool or material that would be harder to find? Like a special oil? An oil you will only find a little of and is used when removing the mod so you have to think about it and plan. Or a tool that uses durability for the mod removal.

 

Or a weapon bench lvl gates at 100? Something like that.

 

Heh, i was just watching your last video

 

Anyways, i'm not so fond of artificial gates that take fun out of it. (like special oil) I'm I'm all for weapons work bench that is not optainable too early. So early on you can only swap the mods that are easily swappable. Later you can swap the ones that require weapons workbench.

Maybe weapons workbench could also have a toolkit so you if you have it, you can use just oil and cloth to repair you weapon.

 

But i do think mods should not be very common. I don't like when mods become trivial. I should look for them but they should feel like an upgrade once u find them.

[Faded]

That is a pretty gross generalization. I never build cobblestone with orange tools. I play nomad and hole up in existing structures during the first week and through the first bloodmoon horde. In my current playthrough I just hit level 20 on day 8 and now have yellow tools and I plan to build my cobblestone initial base for the Day 14 horde. In past games I've built a treehouse that got me through day 14, I've played nomad up to day 21, I've built a base in the apartment building that was pretty much impregnible because of its size, and I could have even built underground if it wasn't so friggin boring to do so. Point is, there are still lots of viable strategies and fun and different ways to play other than grinding out a cobblestone base on day 3 or 4 with orange tools.

 

Sounds to me like the game's current design suits you perfectly. I've played nomad and don't like it; it feels too much like a mimic of a regular FPS, which is not 7DTD's strength. I might be more interested in playing nomad if it were possible to have, say, hordes of hundreds of zombies; now that could be a challenge worth meeting.

 

But emphasizing one genre over another is not a route 7DTD wants to take; its greatest strength is in its unique mix of several different genres.

 

 

Its not a mystery. Some players simply like to rush to the end game because they don't like the early days of primitive and crappy gear-- at all. As you've said, those players have the option to enable the Sandbox Mode to help themselves skip the progression and gift themselves the gear they like to play with. There are quite a lot of people who enjoy a slow progression and like eking out an existence with junk at first so that by comparison later they really appreciate the change to higher tier tools and weapons. Some of those people include the developers...

 

You can't stop min maxers from min-maxing.

 

I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers. That is going to please some and disappoint others. If they go this route and never create an option to bypass it make everything swappable or nothing swappable I don't believe it will harm the game.

In truth I think such a simplistic all on or all off would be more harmful if they took the time to design the mods into groups that are field swapped, workbench swapped, and irreversible. That design has more depth to it.

 

Fair enough. However, your last part sounds like wanting to tell other people how to play their game to me, which I've been assured is not a thing here. There is no reason to not include a toggle option no matter what the final call TFP makes is; letting players and server owners decide is the one method that pleases everybody. Even though 82% of responses were in favor of an open system, I see no reason why that should mean the 18% that want a restricted system shouldn't have the option to play with a restricted system.

 

I would actually make skills like "Mining tools" un-purchasable and only obtained through use.

And i would ditch skills like "Miner 69-er" that are not voluntary but more like a gate to using steel weapons at all. Instead add perks that open up at certain "Mining tools" levels and give different ways your character may want to go.

For example:

Mining speed vs. durability

Craft steel tools on the go vs. Craft steel cheaper

 

This is a great idea.

 

Roland, any chance TFP will share some of their plans for the upgraded attributes/perk/progression system? That would be good stuff to argue over. Might even yield some good ideas...

 

Historically, theorycrafting discussions don't go well here. Let's start some discussion after we've all had some time with A17E.

[meganoth]

It depends really on the drop rate really. Getting that awesome magazine extender and putting it on a 2 quality gun will really sting when you then loot a 4 quality gun.

 

Assume you visit the trader with 20k dukes and find two seldom weapon parts available, each costing 17k. You buy one, then find a weapon where just the part you didn't buy is absolutely bad. That would sting too. Should the trader be changed so that the other weapon part is never removed and you can always return and buy the other part? Just so it doesn't sting and your inital choice becomes meaningless, something you don't need to think about because you always can go back?

 

Sugar-coating the player may seem like a good idea from the players point of view, but a game that makes too many choices arbitrary could lead to boredom. In the end many players want their choices to matter, just look at the ♥♥♥♥storms some RPGs get when the choices of the player ultimately all lead to the same end. Which is why I'm a bit surprised that the vote is so one-sided, I would have expected a more balanced result.

 

I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers.

 

Sounds like a good compromise to me.

 

Fair enough. However, your last part sounds like wanting to tell other people how to play their game to me, which I've been assured is not a thing here. There is no reason to not include a toggle option no matter what the final call TFP makes is; letting players and server owners decide is the one method that pleases everybody. Even though 82% of responses were in favor of an open system, I see no reason why that should mean the 18% that want a restricted system shouldn't have the option to play with a restricted system.

 

I don't think this part is important enough to get an option (but who am I to read the developers mind?). And even though I'm one of the 18% who favour a fully restricted system, I probably would not use that toggle. The vanilla game will be balanced around the default settings and that is ok.

[Maharin]

I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers.

 

I think this is both the best solution for vanilla AND for modders.

[Survager]

Backpack Size...

 

Backpack size is fine. If they never change it and always ignore those who want more inventory slots the game will not be harmed in the least. As contentious as the pre-change discussions were, there has been almost zero complaints and quite a bit of praise for how the game plays sans spam crafting.

 

Many modern and new survival games allow you to change the size of the backpack and the number of things carried with the development of sandboxing or to find bags of different capacity. This is Far Cry 3, 5 (the others did not play), Deus Ex, Project Zomboid and others.

 

Roland, why are you against this? Why are developers against this? What's the 7 Days To Die game worse than what I called earlier? Is it very difficult to do?

[Roland]

Many modern and new survival games allow you to change the size of the backpack and the number of things carried with the development of sandboxing or to find bags of different capacity. This is Far Cry 3, 5 (the others did not play), Deus Ex, Project Zomboid and others.

 

Roland, why are you against this? Why are developers against this? What's the 7 Days To Die game worse than what I called earlier? Is it very difficult to do?

 

I'm not against it. I just think the number of inventory slots we have now is fine and I personally generally prefer scarcity over abundance when playing a survival game. If they added more backpacks with additional slots I would play with it. I've played overhaul mods where a larger backpack was just part of the mod so I had to play with a larger inventory and I didn't hate it. I just no longer cared what I picked up or left behind. I just took everything every time. I like agonizing about what to throw away and what to keep. I think it is good gameplay to have to make decisions like that and super large backpack sizes cut that out of the equation.

 

I just think that there is no magic number of slots that will make everyone happy and since the game is wildly slanted towards being able to carry ungodly amounts of materials I'm more for not exacerbating it even further.

 

I would love to have backpack progression with even fewer slots than we have now at first and eventually through the use of vehicles have way more slots than we do now. But 72 inventory slots from Day One? Not a fan.

[Survager]

I would love to have backpack progression with even fewer slots than we have now at first and eventually through the use of vehicles have way more slots than we do now. But 72 inventory slots from Day One? Not a fan.

 

I agree! And what does Joel think about this?

[Maharin]

I agree! And what does Joel think about this?

 

He cheats. He has an extra four slots in his beard alone.

 

EDIT: And one in each bicep, too!

[SylenThunder]

I agree! And what does Joel think about this?

I could swear that back in a13 or a14 they were discussing exactly that. There was a lot of discussion on whether they should be craftable, or rare drops, or gated behind some other mechanic like a tailoring skill. We may have just been derailing ourselves in one of the dev threads, but at one point there was a backpack slot for your gear. I think there was a pseudo item, but it didn't really do anything.

 

Now I want to go dive into old builds and find it, but don't really have the time for that.

[Wyrda78]

Not sure why there's such a big debate over this. Mods are... moddable. Guns have picatiny rails and all sorts of things to easily switch between attachments. If people think that being able to put your favourite scope on any gun you want is going to somehow break the game, they have a really warped perspective. There are dozens of things in the game to be fixed that will make it more challenging without adding some unrealistic arcadey gimmick to annoy players.

 

Mods should be removable, but they should suffer wear same as any weapon part.

[Survager]

Много больших и разных сумок для игрока и

 

I just think that there is no magic number of slots that will make everyone happy and since the game is wildly slanted towards being able to carry ungodly amounts of materials I'm more for not exacerbating it even further.

 

I would love to have backpack progression with even fewer slots than we have now at first and eventually through the use of vehicles have way more slots than we do now. But 72 inventory slots from Day One? Not a fan.

 

It is not necessary to change the number of cells in the backpack. You can by default block all of the cells, making them inaccessible as in Deus Ex.

 

At the beginning of the game, one of the quests may be to create a minimal bag with grass, sticks and pieces of cloth.

 

A backpack or bag, this will be an object having a buff to unlock a some number of cells in the inventory. Each new bag or backpack will have its value of this buff. And of course you need to add a separate slot in the equipment of the character for the backpack.

 

You can also do transport. Initially, only a portion of the cells will be available. There will be a special slot for the mod that will unlock some number of cells in the vehicle inventory. For a motorcycle, this can be extra baggage bags, for minibike as well. In a jeep, there may not be an opportunity to increase inventory.

 

All this will give a variety.

[n2n1]

Observing many letsplay's of mods,i noticed that a large number of slots in the backpack doesn't solve any problems.

But, the decrease - may give some challenge in the first time.

I think so...

[Faded]

Starting the player with less bag space won't add anything except tedium. It's easy enough to make drop containers for less important loot that you can then round up later as you're out scavenging anyway.

 

Post release, it really should be a selectable option; resorting to .dll modification is not a longterm solution.

[Royal Deluxe]

Starting the player with less bag space won't add anything except tedium.

 

I share this opinion.

In real you would take 4 Sticks and some fibers and build a Slide you can use to draw behind you and multiply your transport capacity.

After playing 15 Hours "The long dark" i can say that there is NO FUN to play a game that restrict you more than reality.

 

Same for mods, if a weapon got a scope its trash for CQC, but why should the player need to transport 2 Rifles instead of beeing able to disassemble the scope before going into a house

[meganoth]

If people think that being able to put your favourite scope on any gun you want is going to somehow break the game, they have a really warped perspective.

 

Well, good then that nobody thinks that. At least I have seen nobody bring that reason up except you.

 

After playing 15 Hours "The long dark" i can say that there is NO FUN to play a game that restrict you more than reality.

 

Dangerous argument to compare with reality as you can carry hundreds of tons of concrete with you .

 

Same for mods, if a weapon got a scope its trash for CQC, but why should the player need to transport 2 Rifles instead of beeing able to disassemble the scope before going into a house

 

Need? I would always do this by choice because switching 2 weapons is a lot faster than adding and removing the scope all the time.

 

And don't we all do something similar with A16 already? Nobody goes into a house with the sniper rifle, we use the AK or a bow/crossbow, and use the sniper only outside. And if we use the sniper in the house we definitely don't look through the scope. Why should it be different with a mod system in place?

[Royal Deluxe]

Dangerous argument to compare with reality as you can carry hundreds of tons of concrete with you .

 

What is the result by offering players to build nice megabases. If the Zombies would be stopped 100% by a woodwall this would not be necessary.

in "The Long Dark" it is simply not possible to have a 24 Hours course of day that really work

Eat all 24 Hours is ok

Drink all 7 Hours is only anoying (Because it breaks if you build something)

Sleep all 6-12 Hours for 6-12 Hours is anoying as hell

and Freeze all 20 Minutes is anoying too.

So to travel 1000 Meters need a week and 7+ Camps (percived not counted)

 

 

I stll wish to play as nomad, what is hard to do decent in 7D2D

[meganoth]

What is the result by offering players to build nice megabases. If the Zombies would be stopped 100% by a woodwall this would not be necessary.

 

I know why this is that way. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument.

 

I stll wish to play as nomad, what is hard to do decent in 7D2D

 

Yes, nomad play is dependent on bagpack size and for that vanilla is probably just too restrictive. I really hope the new mod system will do away with that and it just becomes a question of which perk you take.

[Katlima]

I like the game the long dark and I like the game mechanics and inventory restriction.

 

I agree on crafting getting aborted if you run out of drink, the game should instead make you confirm a popup if it knows you're not going to finish the task.

[Xtrakicking]

Assume you visit the trader with 20k dukes and find two seldom weapon parts available, each costing 17k. You buy one, then find a weapon where just the part you didn't buy is absolutely bad. That would sting too. Should the trader be changed so that the other weapon part is never removed and you can always return and buy the other part? Just so it doesn't sting and your inital choice becomes meaningless, something you don't need to think about because you always can go back?

 

Sugar-coating the player may seem like a good idea from the players point of view, but a game that makes too many choices arbitrary could lead to boredom. In the end many players want their choices to matter, just look at the ♥♥♥♥storms some RPGs get when the choices of the player ultimately all lead to the same end. Which is why I'm a bit surprised that the vote is so one-sided, I would have expected a more balanced result.

 

You have a very fair point. I think players just choose the option that gives them more "freedom" and control over the game in comparison to the other options.

 

I, in fact, was completely sure I wanted mods to be removable, but after reading your above example I realised non-removable mods may be even more fun than removable ones cause I'm forced to make a choice that will shape my game in the future. However, I initially went for the option in which I had the power to decide what I wanted.

[meganoth]

Thank you. I'm relieved that my reasoning might actually not be completely from another planet

[Faded]

You have a very fair point. I think players just choose the option that gives them more "freedom" and control over the game in comparison to the other options.

 

I, in fact, was completely sure I wanted mods to be removable, but after reading your above example I realised non-removable mods may be even more fun than removable ones cause I'm forced to make a choice that will shape my game in the future. However, I initially went for the option in which I had the power to decide what I wanted.

 

I prefer maximum freedom, because it lets me choose how I want to play. It's a standard practice of mine to start a new game and decide "this character will only use X" or "this character will never do Y". This forces a change to my regular playstyle and allows me to view the game from a different angle.

 

I'll do this in any RPG I play, because it maximizes the fun. Who wants to play the same way every time?

[Royal Deluxe]

I'll do this in any RPG I play, because it maximizes the fun. Who wants to play the same way every time?

 

Too much freedom is bad too. Currently i stopped to play my around 10th try to play Fallout 4. Simply because they have no decent economy (to much freedom).

Playing vanilla feels cheaty, change it and try to etablish better rules too.

 

On one hand the survival mode of F4 is really restrictive.

No fast travel

No manual savegames

and some other things i dont like

 

On the other hand can you build so many waterproduction that if you stay in the starttown for 100 Days (by only sleep, Build,Harvest, repeat) you can have over a million Bottlecaps. Means after that you can purchase everything every Vendor has for the whole game.