Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Maynard69]

1. Not everyone plays 30min days lol I know alot of my friends who play and the majority of them play atleast 1hr days.It makes the hordes harder as we can pump out gamestage higher.

2.I had the mods on all my tools easily got from looting or traders.

 

1) I made no comment about 30 min days. The default is 1 hour. The number of people dont play vanilla settings is irrelevant. Also longer days does not "pump out a higher gamestage" it restricts it since gamestage is calculated by "number of days alive" so you playing longer days only gives you less of a chance to get a higher gamestage. It also counts you level so at best it would be comparable if you are leveling alot, but not higher.

 

2) Having mods by day 13 sounds about right.

[9nines]

But how do level gates change this? In all of our games in A17 with level gates intact we had a working forge before day 5, often on day 2. You probably have done the same, right? Why wait for level 20 when so many forges were sitting around? We also had all iron tools from scavenging and from the trader by day 5. Would level gates change anything with that?

 

There is already a positive change in b233. They made the anvil more expensive. If anything, this is the right direction. Add a schematic and more expensive materials to craft it. Or simply put anvil higher on the perk tree.

 

 

 

 

So you play 2hr days and on lower than highest difficulty and talk about not having a chellenge? Maybe that's the problem right there

 

I dont play on the highest difficulty becuase all it does is turn the zombies into bullet sponges.A feral wright takes still a full clip of modded ak to down on warrior and I think two clips on the highest difficulty. May I ask what difficulty you play on and if you play SP?

[Maynard69]

Hit the barns or tool shops and youll get iron tools commonly.I found a forge house they have replaced since last update but had iron tools by like day 2 and was able to repair them.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Endgame to me is lv6 all tools/all weapons/all armor with ability to do whatever I want.Being able to defend my base without cheesing the horde.Being able to do top tier poi without worring about ammo costs.Having fully modded out gear.

 

1) dont need advice on how to play, Im well past 6000 hours on this game

2) Wow by day 5 on default day length? Thats impressive. 5 hours isnt a long time. If you are playing longer days but then complaining that you get there too quick, thats on you.

[Gareee]

Having a forge is far from end game. There are electrical defenses, mods to acquire for armor and weapons, steel and vehicles to unlock and craft for exploring.

 

Having a forge is just a early game goal and achievement, and if you've poured your points hell bent on unlocking it, you've missed putting points you need into melee and survival options.

 

All this noise about the forge and gating the anvil is just rubbish talk people are focusing on.

 

With a17 exp, we've not been near unlocking the 4x4 or gyro to test, and the gyro is an AMAZING game changer for exploration that really changes your perspective on the game world while playing.

 

Question: I'm using a controller, and found all the gyro controls except nose down. You move forward and nose up to climb, but the nose up angle is allowed to be straight up and you then stall. Maybe the up angle max needs to be decreased?

 

How do you nose down? I'm thinking maybe that key wasn't bound on the controller. I put in a bug report on it, as well as the controller bicycle speed toggle... I think it was Madmole who mentioned before the last update that the work on it was completed.

 

Playing with the vehicles some, the sounds are too steady and "drone-y"... maybe alter the engine sounds based on the incline the vehicle is using for speed adjustment... so it varies the engine sound, making it sound like it's working harder or easier depending on if they are going up or downhill? (This might be already planned polish, but I figured I'd mention it just in case. )

[Sarsante]

The problem with designing the game with your playstyle in mind is that it necessarily restricts freedom because contrary to what you might say about adding more endgame content it wouldn't help. You would speed through that and devour the new content in another 3 or 4 days.

 

The problem is that you do not enjoy the journey and this game is all about experiencing the journey and contrary to some ridiculous notion that players like you are forced to play the most efficiently it absolutely is your choice.

 

Pimps need to continue to allow players the freedom to progress and specialize as they see fit regardless of whether it means speedsters can get to endgame in 5 game days. If they decide to slow down and take in the journey their problem will be solved and if not they can just move along and devour their next several games and post their times in those games' forums.

 

But they do allow freedom, Ive the freedom to play creative, to set zombies to walk, to reduce exp gain per level to get 20 levels a day, I can disable enemies spawn, want more freedom than that?

 

Now lets think the other way around, what can I do to make the game harder? decrease exp gain to take forever to level up? that will also make gamestage increase at slower pace. I can set zombies to run and increase their damage. that's all the freedom I've.

 

you can see the people who want easy way has plenty more choices to play like they want?

 

also if clear pois is rush content, well they should reduce the amount of zombies to 1 per poi. this way I would level up slowly. they could also remove wandering hordes and 7th night hordes, because how dare you level up by killing zombies? or make that zombie you kill you lose exp, that would make a slow progress as well.

[9nines]

1) I made no comment about 30 min days. The default is 1 hour. The number of people dont play vanilla settings is irrelevant. Also longer days does not "pump out a higher gamestage" it restricts it since gamestage is calculated by "number of days alive" so you playing longer days only gives you less of a chance to get a higher gamestage. It also counts you level so at best it would be comparable if you are leveling alot, but not higher.

 

2) Having mods by day 13 sounds about right.

 

Game stage is by your gear/how well you are killing/deaths and level.I had all the mods by around day 4 as I lived in between two close traders and looted almost constantly.

[Maynard69]

I dont play on the highest difficulty becuase all it does is turn the zombies into bullet sponges.A feral wright takes still a full clip of modded ak to down on warrior and I think two clips on the highest difficulty. May I ask what difficulty you play on and if you play SP?

 

Thats not even true anymore lol, bullet sponges were so a16. Irradiated have regen, can still be killed quickly if you do it right.

[9nines]

1) dont need advice on how to play, Im well past 6000 hours on this game

2) Wow by day 5 on default settings? Thats impressive. 5 hours isnt a long time. If you are playing longer days but then complaining that you get there too quick, thats on you.

 

And I am at around 650 hrs but I know how to play as well.I love how it seems your problem is that I am playing 2hr days lol I was making even a few videos on a16 to help noobs/newish players learn tricks to playing the game. I normally play to about day 126 before I restart and go again with a different RGW and a new idea for a defence.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Thats not even true anymore lol, bullet sponges were so a16. Irradiated have regen, can still be killed quickly if you do it right.

 

Thats why on a test world with a fully modded ak and full automatic weapon perk,it took almost two clips to kill a irradiated wright on max difficulty??

[Gareee]

Game stage is by your gear/how well you are killing/deaths and level.I had all the mods by around day 4 as I lived in between two close traders and looted almost constantly.

 

Sorry, I'm calling bs. There is simply no way you have a forge and "all the mods" and all the armor on day 4, unless you are playing 4 or 5 hour long days. The math on xp gain and resources needed proves that out.

[Maynard69]

Sorry, I'm calling bs. There is simply no way you have a forge and "all the mods" and all the armor on day 4, unless you are playing 4 or 5 hour long days. The math on xp gain and resources needed proves that out.

 

I would bet money he has never even seen the mod "Jump Jets". Getting that one made me instantly feel like I was endgame. You can literally Jump twice and cover a city block lol.

[meganoth]

I dont play on the highest difficulty becuase all it does is turn the zombies into bullet sponges.A feral wright takes still a full clip of modded ak to down on warrior and I think two clips on the highest difficulty. May I ask what difficulty you play on and if you play SP?

 

That doesn't really matter because I don't claim that the game is boring to me after day 5. At the moment I play mostly co-op and seldom a SP game, both at standard difficulty.

 

A game with 2h days is definitely a lot easier than one with 1h days (the default). Longer consecutive daytime, less game stage, MUUCH more time to prepare for 7 day horde, even if that first horde may be lame (it takes some time away from scavening if you need to put up a base).

[wolfbain5]

How this works, in short, is that RWGMixer consists of multiple "modules" that are linked together. Some modules generate signals (like the Voronoi and FastTurbulence modules in your example), others take signals as input from one or more other modules and combine or change them (like scaleOutput and biasOutput).

 

If you want to really know how these work and interact together then check out the link below. It has helped me a lot to get a grip on it all:

 

http://libnoise.sourceforge.net/docs/index.html

 

-edit-

A little warning though. This rabbit hole can go pretty deep (just ask Tin, he lives in one ). Before you know it you'll be pulling all nighters writing stuff like this:

 

 

actually wanted small bits of notation saying this module controls subbiome size, this module controles biome size, this modules adds to biome randomization.

 

that type of notation

[Sarsante]

Please define what you mean by endgame.

What level are you on by Day 5? (You need to be level 21 at a minimum to reach the max of one attribute tree with zero perks purchased)

When you say "clear a POI" do you mean loot it completely or kill every sleeper or both?

How long are your days?

What difficulty are playing?

What speeds are your zombies set to?

 

How do you account for complaints from OTHER players that the new system is too slow? Why aren't they at endgame by day 5 and not only that why do they feel that endgame is way beyond the amount of time they can put in?

 

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.

 

edit: I missed some of the questions you asked (gonna check them and edit again)

 

What level are you on by Day 5? (You need to be level 21 at a minimum to reach the max of one attribute tree with zero perks purchased) - round 20 without much effort

 

When you say "clear a POI" do you mean loot it completely or kill every sleeper or both?

both

 

How long are your days?

60 minutes

 

What difficulty are playing?

warrior

 

What speeds are your zombies set to?

default

 

How do you account for complaints from OTHER players that the new system is too slow? Why aren't they at endgame by day 5 and not only that why do they feel that endgame is way beyond the amount of time they can put in?

some play badly and most really want play creative to build castles but they dont want set the game to creative or disable enemies spawn. so they complain game its too hard.

[Maynard69]

And I am at around 650 hrs but I know how to play as well.I love how it seems your problem is that I am playing 2hr days lol I was making even a few videos on a16 to help noobs/newish players learn tricks to playing the game. I normally play to about day 126 before I restart and go again with a different RGW and a new idea for a defence.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Thats why on a test world with a fully modded ak and full automatic weapon perk,it took almost two clips to kill a irradiated wright on max difficulty??

 

A clip to kill an irradiated is fine. But its not like it was where higher difficulty = all zombies take forever to kill. Irradiated have regen even if you are playing lower settings, "Thats not even true anymore" referred to you comment saying that increased difficulty settings make the zombies bullet sponges, it doesnt.

 

I have no problem at all with you playing two hour days. The problem is with you claiming what day you reach certain goals as too fast using the non-standard easier settings that give you more time. If you dont like progressing alot by day 5, change your days shorter, not longer. Dont expect the game to be changed because you start it giving yourself an advantage.

[Boidster]

Roland nailed it. The player can choose to specialize or the player can choose to generalize. Level gates mean the developer has said, "sorry, I know you made it this far and don't care about other skills/attributes/perks, but I'm going to make you wait until you've killed an appropriate number of zombies and/or trees before I let you take the next step."

 

Without level gates, whether you take that next step at level 5 or level 30 is entirely up to you, with the caveat that if you take it at level 5 you will have non-trivial* character weaknesses that may come back to bite you later. In the form of zombies. Biting you.

 

*Working out what "non-trivial" amounts to is otherwise known as "balancing"

[9nines]

I would bet money he has never even seen the mod "Jump Jets". Getting that one made me instantly feel like I was endgame. You can literally Jump twice and cover a city block lol.

 

Saw it on my test world and thought it was a crap mod,why would i need to jump like that when I can just drive?

[meganoth]

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.

 

Oh, ok. I now define endgame as me having a stone axe. Wow, the game just got pretty easy.

[icehot]

Oh, ok. I now define endgame as me having a stone axe. Wow, the game just got pretty easy.

 

Wow you go that far? My end game is punching a piece of grass.

[Gareee]

When I was a kid grass punched US, and we liked it. You kids all have it too easy these days.

[rdunham3]

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.

 

That's more like having surpassed the early game challenge of the environment and hunger not killing you. That's more or less where taking on zombies and the dungeon-style POI's becomes the main focus of the game. That, and preparing for some sort of blood moon strategy.

 

Blood moons aren't my favorite part of the game, but they're certainly one of the major obstacles/challenges the game is designed to have. Iron tools and some form of transportation are minor achievements.

[Maynard69]

Saw it on my test world and thought it was a crap mod,why would i need to jump like that when I can just drive?

 

Thats funny, I dont use vehicles except rarely or very late game. I dont play longer days, and I dont turn the difficulty down. I turn it up. That way I dont have to complain that things are "too easy" or "I got there too quick" like you guys.

 

From what I can tell that mod is on par with a minibike or motorcycle. Its for sure faster than a bike to get around. Also it doesnt get damaged by inclines or pebbles in the road or use gas. Far from "crap" mod tho. But Idk, i dont have much to compare it with because I never ruin my surprises by testing in a fake game or spawning stuff in.

[Sarsante]

That's more like having surpassed the early game challenge of the environment and hunger not killing you. That's more or less where taking on zombies and the dungeon-style POI's becomes the main focus of the game. That, and preparing for some sort of blood moon strategy.

 

Blood moons aren't my favorite part of the game, but they're certainly one of the major obstacles/challenges the game is designed to have. Iron tools and some form of transportation are minor achievements.

 

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.

 

Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

 

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

[9nines]

Thats funny, I dont use vehicles except rarely or very late game. I dont play longer days, and I dont turn the difficulty down. I turn it up. That way I dont have to complain that things are "too easy" or "I got there too quick" like you guys.

 

So if I was playing on max difficulty,played one hour days and still managed to get the same effect out you'd stop trolling?lol seems a bit of biase here.Also vehicles are in the game to be used,just because you choose not to does not mean I can not.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.

 

Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

 

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

 

Exactly,thats why I do the starter quests right off the bat to run to the nearest trader and see what they can offer me.Past couple of updates,I have been able to atleast get a lv5 machete or lv4 sledge for around 7k dukes which is easy if you hit military bases or loot gun stores.

[SnowDog1942]

Wow you go that far? My end game is punching a piece of grass.

 

I know im in the minority here but my "end game" is not based on what level I am.

 

I play dead is dead. Once I feel there is no longer a threat of me dying Im done. The main measurement would probably be easily beating the max gamestage Blood Moon Horde (without cheesing) . If i can do this there is no longer a point to play as it wont get any harder and there is no threat of dying. My level dont matter and I dont rush, in fact im probably slow at leveling because Im very carefull and always trying not to die.

 

If i can level up 30 more times to get stronger I really dont care as its not needed, I already won.

 

I havent played A17 enough to get to that point, I like waiting for stable. But hopefully its a bit harder and takes a bit longer than the snoozefest known as vanilla A16.4

[Roland]

It seems you have a biased view of us "speedsters".We dont want to clear the game and brag about it but instead we wanna hit the hard stuff as early game is a piece of cake.If I dont see atleast 2-4 glowing zombies and cops in my first horde,ive been slacking becuase that means it is too easy.I play on warrior difficulty to make them hard but not bullet sponges and I even play with machete as it makes me have less reach so more of a chance of getting hit.

 

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.

 

No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

 

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

 

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

 

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...