Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Maynard69]

So if I was playing on max difficulty,played one hour days and still managed to get the same effect out you'd stop trolling?lol seems a bit of biase here.Also vehicles are in the game to be used,just because you choose not to does not mean I can not.

 

Sure if you get the same result with 1/2 the time and on a higher difficulty, and post screenshots to prove everything is exactly the same. I will admit that your complaints have twice as much merit as they did before. 2x0

 

And no vehicles are in the game as a "choice" to use them. I never made any comment about you using them at all. I only stated my preferences. You know what the say about ASSumtions

[icehot]

I know im in the minority here but my "end game" is not based on what level I am.

 

I play dead is dead. Once I feel there is no longer a threat of me dying Im done. The main measurement would probably br easily beating the max gamestage Blood Moon Horde (without cheesing) . If i can do this there is no longer a point to play as it wont get any harder and there is no threat of dying. My level dont matter and I dont rush, in fact im probably slow at leveling because Im very carefull and always trying not to die.

 

If i can level up 30 more times to get stronger I really dont care as its not needed, I already won.

 

I havent played A17 enough to get to that point, I like waiting for stable. But hopefully its a bit harder and takes a bit longer than the snoozefest known as vanilla A16.4

 

I don't play dead is dead, though I do get annoyed if I get killed as I can appreciate the concept, and I do actively try to avoid being killed even without a death penalty. But I agree with you on the end game being where you feel there's nothing left to do, that's what I did in A16, you have everything, resources are abundant, and zombies are little more than an annoyance - but surely in anything of this nature that's the end game. I tended in A16 to get to that point by day 80 or 90 maybe - I remember when I stopped my last A16 game which was when I was pottering around on the minibike wondering what now?

 

Edit: The same thing can happen in real life too actually, I'm 40 now, and have pretty much got to where I aimed to get to in life when I was still a student, got kids, a place to live, food is easy enough, my job isn't that challenging anymore because I've been doing it for 20 years and am now classed as the senior in my position. The only way up now is management, which to me seems completely boring dealing with people problems all the time. So anything that simulates life will eventually get to that point, surely?

[9nines]

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.

 

No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

 

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

 

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

 

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...

 

If we are able to speed through early game it must not be that hard of a vulnerability as I normally can get a few forges up and running within a few hours if I really wanted.Heck I did a few trader missions and got steel tools or heavy armor for easy ones. I hate pretty much all games but survival ones. I quit warframe after maxing out everything back then in about 1k hrs for example.I have played rust for 2.5k and ark for 2.5k along with subsistence and subnatica. I am a survival player becuase I want a challenge and early game in most games is not a vulnerability but the easiest time in the game.

 

Need more ammo early game? Kill a vulture for enough arrows to handle most roaming hordes.

Need a good melee to hold out till you can craft better?Use the axe or a club to easily beat most zombies you will see.

Need iron? Smack a few boulders on the surface and youll have the same iron in 20mins that would take you hours underground.

Need food? loot a gas station or shamway or a bigger kitchened POI.

[madmole]

For the most part I'm liking the changes in this latest build. The only real issue I have (and it's not unique to B233) is the fact that I can't cook any food unless I buy a perk. I can somehow instinctively weave a set of clothing and a sleeping bag, boil up a pot of water and fill a bunch of jars with the clean water, but boiling a damn egg is somehow beyond me?

 

Can a Pimp please comment on this?

 

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

[Maynard69]

I can clear a dungeon from day 1, with rex and crusher.

 

Iron tools and a vehicle is not a minor achievement. Using both you can easily farm all resources in the game pretty much without any risk. A pack of wolves/dogs? hop in and you're safe and that's pretty much the only things that can kill you outside a dungeon.

 

You can cover more area, that means farm more resources, clear more poi's then you snowball pretty hard after you get to iron and vehicles.

 

I totally agree that all vehicles should be gated to lvl100. lmao

[Roland]

By end game I mean I can craft pretty decent tools, I can have a farm to get rid of any hunger challenges, game throws weapons at me more than I can sell so Im done with that too, Im couple levels away to craft a minibike. and that's at day 3 to 5 tops.

 

edit: I missed some of the questions you asked (gonna check them and edit again)

 

What level are you on by Day 5? (You need to be level 21 at a minimum to reach the max of one attribute tree with zero perks purchased) - round 20 without much effort

 

I disagree that level 20ish is endgame. There is still a lot of the game to explore and even a lot of your character to progress at that point. I can see what you mean by things are a lot easier by that point but that is only because you haven't even defended vs one bloodmoon yet and the first two bloodmoons are rarely as interesting as all the rest starting at day 21 once you've had 21 days worth of gamestage building.

 

When you say "clear a POI" do you mean loot it completely or kill every sleeper or both?

both

 

I often leave sleepers behind. I loot and dodge and run over to another part of the building and loot some more while waiting for the zombies to catch up-- kind of Resident Evil style. I do kill as well but not exclusively and for me it makes each POI fun by mixing up how I do it. I try to put myself in each situation and ask myself if I would REALLY risk combating the zombies rather than avoiding them. I rarely stop to kill wandering zombies in the wildnerness...just leave them to eat my dust as I travel. Going out of my way to kill every zombie feel unnatural and really the only reason to do it is...to be earning xp efficiently.

 

How long are your days?

60 minutes

 

What difficulty are playing?

warrior

 

What speeds are your zombies set to?

default

 

I highly recommend jog or run during the day. They make POI clearing a whole new experience.

 

How do you account for complaints from OTHER players that the new system is too slow? Why aren't they at endgame by day 5 and not only that why do they feel that endgame is way beyond the amount of time they can put in?

some play badly and most really want play creative to build castles but they dont want set the game to creative or disable enemies spawn. so they complain game its too hard.

 

So here is the truth. They aren't playing poorly and you aren't playing wrong. People are simply playing how they play and it either brings them joy or dissatisfaction. I can tell you right now that it is going to be impossible to balance the game for the slowpokes and the speedsters in a way that will prolong the game to the satisfaction of the speedsters but not make it unbearable for the slowpokes. So the only recourse for those two extremes is to mod the game to support their playstyle or modify how they play to fit the intended pacing of the game.

[Roland]

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

 

make it use and consume a can of water....

[FileMachete]

I guess you can cook charred meat and boil water. I can make boiled eggs perk less.

 

MM, or maybe a non-Perked Fryed Egg if you have a cooking pot?

 

Edit: hmm... like the can idea, since no pot required(?) maybe allow the can to be dirty water? Gonna boil it anyway ...?

[Sarsante]

This might be one view but it is not the only view posted by efficiency players over the past couple of years (including back to A15 with its spam crafting mechanic). Besides if you can get to ferals and irradiateds in 5 game days then what's your complaint? You played how you wanted to get to the gamestage you desired. Now play with those tougher enemies and larger hordes.

 

No...by far the largest complaints from your group are that the early game is too boring and grindy because you are gimped as a character and they want to get past the vulnerability part of the game to the invulnerability part of the game as quickly as possible..and then they realize that a game with zero threat and risk is not as fun as they thought it would be...go figure.

 

They say things like the devs are lazy because they keep stretching out the early game instead of adding on even more challenging content to the end. But this is the big lie. If the developers added challenging content that threatened those players they would speed as fast as they could to get past those threats and again feel invulnerable and if they couldn't they would complain that the endgame is......grindy, boring, and unfair.

 

Then they would complain again and say that the new endgame content was no longer endgame and TFP should add on even more endgame content....

 

The game IS the journey from vulnerable to invulnerable and if that journey is not fun for you maybe it isn't the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. I don't have fun with RTS games and I don't play them. I definitely don't play this one like an RTS...

 

I think we have enough end game content, the only issue is how fast we can get to it.

 

Let's think in a very reasonable middle term way, shall we? Please let me know what you think its just try hard or to be excessively efficient.

 

Considering default settings, for the first lets say 10 levels we can round it up to 10k exp per level, ok?

 

So day 1 you do your basic quests (+4 skill points) and clear one small POI with 6 zombies to spend the night and make your first base.

 

6*550 = 3,3k + 1k trader quest + idk 500 exp from the basics quests

 

5k exp by the end of day 1.

 

I feel it's pretty reasonable in 45 minutes of day light, an average player can clear 2 small POi's. That's what? Around 20 zombies, I think it's a fair number.

 

Also it's pretty reasonable consider a player can fight one wandering horde per day, another what? 10 zombies?

 

So we have 30 zombies kill minimum, by only playing the game. Not power levelling or anything.

 

30 x 550 = 16500 minimum, because some zombies give more exp.

 

By the end of day 2 21500 exp minimum.

 

At day 3, after clear couple poi's a bad player can probably clear 3-4 small poi's.

 

4 small poi's = 40 zombies

1 wandering horde = 10 zombies

 

50 * 550 = 27500

 

By the end of day 3 49k exp, consider couple trees and boulders 50k. So by the end of day 3, we're talking about 9 skill points to spend.

 

Same thing on day 4 and 5 = 55k exp

 

Day 6 we can see some progress and now he can go for a medium size dungeon. How many zombies you think it's reasonable? 25? Plus a medium POi with 12 of them, plus the wandering horde that we fight every day +10 = 47 zombies

 

47 * 550 = 25.8k exp

 

lets add everything: 50k + 55k + 25.8k = 130k

 

So by just playing the game an average dude can be level 13 by the end of day 6. thats 17 skill points.

 

We didnt even consider exp for anything else, like killing/harvesting animais, farming wood, stone, iron, doing any quest, selling anything.

 

So if I say I'll probably be around 20 clearing more POi's per day, I can't see how Im rushing. How Im doing anything wrong besides playing the game?

[Roland]

If we are able to speed through early game it must not be that hard of a vulnerability as I normally can get a few forges up and running within a few hours if I really wanted.Heck I did a few trader missions and got steel tools or heavy armor for easy ones. I hate pretty much all games but survival ones. I quit warframe after maxing out everything back then in about 1k hrs for example.I have played rust for 2.5k and ark for 2.5k along with subsistence and subnatica. I am a survival player becuase I want a challenge and early game in most games is not a vulnerability but the easiest time in the game.

 

Need more ammo early game? Kill a vulture for enough arrows to handle most roaming hordes.

Need a good melee to hold out till you can craft better?Use the axe or a club to easily beat most zombies you will see.

Need iron? Smack a few boulders on the surface and youll have the same iron in 20mins that would take you hours underground.

Need food? loot a gas station or shamway or a bigger kitchened POI.

 

I get it, I get it. You don't know how NOT to play excellently.

[FileMachete]

Question;

 

Previously there was a 'code(?)' thingy that only supported getting 1 'item' back from a "craft", right?

 

So the Boiled Egg couldn't return the Glass Jar.

 

Not a big deal now based on abundance of Water/Jars I've been seeing, but wondering if that limitation still applies?

[wolffblood]

My view:

 

That's a thing though, every game has an end, every single one. How long it takes and what you have to do is what matters. Most people don't keep playing after the end, and most games are not meant for that (most games have a New Game+ with much higher difficulty is all). Due to this, there should always be more in leading up to the end than the end itself. Even MMOs, there's a point you beat every raid and have all the best gear, you finally beat the game, it's done, any more playing gets you no where. Really, end game is also defined by content doable only at max level, which is not here since not many hit max level and the game is still in development. Really end game, currently, would be as SnowDog said, it's when you beat the highest game stage without losing anything hard to make on your base because it won't inherently get harder. At least for easiest definition and one that actually pertains to full end of the game play ability short of wanting to get literally everything in the game or have massive creations.

 

The rest is usually early, mid, late game. I feel like people will rush to late game (steel/military for this case) then hate and get bored of then progressing through levels and days to get to the highest game stage to finally beat the end game. That's at least my take on it all.

 

If there was more to do between starting and getting better gear, people would feel less inclined to rush to late game items. This is where their story line will come in that they are working on. Helps with the dialogue now working and how the new buff system is in place and all. They can now do awesome stuff that will take time. Maybe at some point create those "invulnerable" houses, make it to where you had to do a quest line to get a key that is used to go into this house, when you open this house, you have to clear it of the stronger zombies and once you get to the end, you open a door and it lets loose new zombies out into the world and now have to deal with that. And now you have new zombies that can spawn in biomes, hordes, etc. Doing things like that still gives people freedom to do what they want, but takes longer getting to the end since now quests, dungeons, etc. are now involved to open up to mid to late game. There's so much now they can do and I look forward to it.

 

Or maybe new gear at some point later on? New blocks? I don't know, but even if they don't, this game allows modders to be able to do all these things, and now they just made a game that can be used for hundreds of modders to work into their own game. I just see the possibilities this game can go even now if say TFP decided to quit. I can't wait to see what TFP decides, or Ravenhearts, Valmod, True Survival, etc. They're all fun and each is like it's own game.

[Roland]

I think we have enough end game content, the only issue is how fast we can get to it.

 

Let's think in a very reasonable middle term way, shall we? Please let me know what you think its just try hard or to be excessively efficient.

 

Considering default settings, for the first lets say 10 levels we can round it up to 10k exp per level, ok?

 

So day 1 you do your basic quests (+4 skill points) and clear one small POI with 6 zombies to spend the night and make your first base.

 

6*550 = 3,3k + 1k trader quest + idk 500 exp from the basics quests

 

5k exp by the end of day 1.

 

I feel it's pretty reasonable in 45 minutes of day light, an average player can clear 2 small POi's. That's what? Around 20 zombies, I think it's a fair number.

 

Also it's pretty reasonable consider a player can fight one wandering horde per day, another what? 10 zombies?

 

So we have 30 zombies kill minimum, by only playing the game. Not power levelling or anything.

 

30 x 550 = 16500 minimum, because some zombies give more exp.

 

By the end of day 2 21500 exp minimum.

 

At day 3, after clear couple poi's a bad player can probably clear 3-4 small poi's.

 

4 small poi's = 40 zombies

1 wandering horde = 10 zombies

 

50 * 550 = 27500

 

By the end of day 3 49k exp, consider couple trees and boulders 50k. So by the end of day 3, we're talking about 9 skill points to spend.

 

Same thing on day 4 and 5 = 55k exp

 

Day 6 we can see some progress and now he can go for a medium size dungeon. How many zombies you think it's reasonable? 25? Plus a medium POi with 12 of them, plus the wandering horde that we fight every day +10 = 47 zombies

 

47 * 550 = 25.8k exp

 

lets add everything: 50k + 55k + 25.8k = 130k

 

So by just playing the game an average dude can be level 13 by the end of day 6. thats 17 skill points.

 

We didnt even consider exp for anything else, like killing/harvesting animais, farming wood, stone, iron, doing any quest, selling anything.

 

So if I say I'll probably be around 20 clearing more POi's per day, I can't see how Im rushing. How Im doing anything wrong besides playing the game?

 

Not wrong. You are playing correctly for you except that you aren't happy with it.

 

I have never cleared 2 POI's on my first day. I usually take over the first one I come to which is usually one of the trashy non-level designed wilderness houses. I improve the upper floor and remove access to it, finish up my quest by placing a fireplace, replacing my bedroll, and crafting a chest to empty everything into. Then I spend the rest of the day gathering basic materials.

 

Day 2 I travel to the trader and often skip zombies I encounter in the wilderness. I hunt every animal I come across to the trader and back again to my initial camp. Then I start exploring outward and scavenging in POI's. I do not hunt down and kill every zombie. I let wandering hordes move past. When threatened I kill to defend. I also start working on making flagstone blocks in anticipation of my first base.

 

I usually stay in the first house until after Day 7 which pretty much hoses it. Then I move closer to the trader and build my own base. Week 2 is getting that base ready. I am usually level 8-10 by Day 7 and having a great time. I have zero complaints about my pacing or what the game throws at me. The game plays out like an apocalyptic story or an episode of The Walking Dead. But playing like this....letting zombies go by....would probably drive you crazy, eh?

[9nines]

I get it, I get it. You don't know how NOT to play excellently.

 

Na,I ♥♥♥♥ up at times as we are all not perfect but still early game is the easiest becuase its not hard to advance from a lump of wood and a bow. lol ps fun challenge,try to make lv10 with only using bone shiv as a weapon....gotta say that was fun yet annoying.

[Reckis]

I don't think the developers need to listen to ANYONE who rushes as quickly as possible to power level under whatever system is in place. If you are at endgame "before day 10 and bored by day 20" with the current system then there is nothing that is going to please you. Arbitrary level gates restrict freedom. Even when they were in we had people who power leveled as fast as possible saying that by level 100 on day 30 the game was over.

 

Let people who are going to focus on level ascension through grinding zombies (A17) or mining (A16) or crafting (A15) do what they want to do and be bored with their choice. It is their choice to play that way and it is their choice to complain about it. For those who just play the game and who do not focus on leveling up every moment, the game is still a pleasant journey through the progression. My game is largely unchanged from when we had level gates to what we have now as far as speed of progression. The only difference is more choices and the ability to specialize early game which is a huge plus.

 

The current system is good for team play and it is also good for solo play as long as the player isn't in a rush to get to the top. It allows for specializing early on so that your playthrough can be different each time and your character build can have strengths and weaknesses. All I see is people wanting to completely avoid weaknesses and to get to God level strengths in all areas and then complain that it only took them one week of game time to do it.

 

I guarantee that those players probably burned through the last dozen games they played. Let them move on and burn through a dozen more and not be a factor in forcing everyone else who plays it at the pace of a level or 2 per game day get shafted.

 

That is my opinion.

 

+1 this

[wolffblood]

if anything, make it always night, put zombies on only nightmare, put on insane..... you know, that'd be an awesome 7DtD series to watch, lol.

[9nines]

Not wrong. You are playing correctly for you except that you aren't happy with it.

 

I have never cleared 2 POI's on my first day. I usually take over the first one I come to which is usually one of the trashy non-level designed wilderness houses. I improve the upper floor and remove access to it, finish up my quest by placing a fireplace, replacing my bedroll, and crafting a chest to empty everything into. Then I spend the rest of the day gathering basic materials.

 

Day 2 I travel to the trader and often skip zombies I encounter in the wilderness. I hunt every animal I come across to the trader and back again to my initial camp. Then I start exploring outward and scavenging in POI's. I do not hunt down and kill every zombie. I let wandering hordes move past. When threatened I kill to defend. I also start working on making flagstone blocks in anticipation of my first base.

 

I usually stay in the first house until after Day 7 which pretty much hoses it. Then I move closer to the trader and build my own base. Week 2 is getting that base ready. I am usually level 8-10 by Day 7 and having a great time. I have zero complaints about my pacing or what the game throws at me. The game plays out like an apocalyptic story or an episode of The Walking Dead. But playing like this....letting zombies go by....would probably drive you crazy, eh?

 

I am not saying your wrong there but your more of a builder than me.I normally dont work on my base till about halfway through day 6 or early day 7.I normally clear every zombie i can in stores to get loot then around a hour or two game time before night I clear a roof or a random poi to stay in over night. during the night I throw down a few boxes and a couple fires with a few frames to block off main access. day 2-6 is clearing POIs and looking around for a nice spot to setup during the days/farming resources at night. by day 7 I am normally lv20ish and with a decent melee/ranged weapon like machete or sledge depending on trade with a comp bow and starting to build a makeshift horde base with some wood blocks on side or top of a POI that doesnt spawn good loot.

 

A16 I was a builder like you and would build huge horde bases by day 28 lol

[n2n1]

Why do zombies in a jump throw their hands like Shaolin monks?

It's looks stupid, and has no relation to the real jumps.

[9nines]

Why do zombies in a jump throw their hands like Shaolin monks?

It's looks stupid, and has no relation to the real jumps.

 

I started calling em spider monkeys lol watch ricky bobby and see why

[Boidster]

Not wrong. You are playing correctly for you except that you aren't happy with it.

 

I have never cleared 2 POI's on my first day. I usually take over the first one I come to which is usually one of the trashy non-level designed wilderness houses. I improve the upper floor and remove access to it, finish up my quest by placing a fireplace, replacing my bedroll, and crafting a chest to empty everything into. Then I spend the rest of the day gathering basic materials.

 

...etc...

 

I play this way also (whether SP or co-op) for the most part, tho in my current world I couldn't find a good cabin POI so I'm on the roof of an (uncleared) elementary school on day 2. It feels safe. Ish. I know the building beneath me is teeming with trouble. Probably bears.

 

I am not saying your wrong there but your more of a builder than me.I normally dont work on my base till about halfway through day 6 or early day 7.I normally clear every zombie i can in stores to get loot then around a hour or two game time before night I clear a roof or a random poi to stay in over night. during the night I throw down a few boxes and a couple fires with a few frames to block off main access. day 2-6 is clearing POIs ...

 

This is a more combat-oriented play style, and you would gain many more levels than I would, day-by-day. The "medium" playstyle that Sarsante outlined seems even more combat/POI oriented. No wonder he gets levels so quickly. I spend half a day chopping trees and whacking boulders (and avoiding most zombies) so I can improve (a leeetle bit) my first POI base. He's out cleansing the world of the zombie infestation instead.

 

Really, yours/Sarsante's play style makes a great co-op partner to my play style. Especially with shared XP set to 1KM. :-) And of course with non-level-gated attributes so we can specialize in what we wanna do.

[Tin]

Why do zombies in a jump throw their hands like Shaolin monks?

It's looks stupid, and has no relation to the real jumps.

 

Well..

That would be because..

[wolffblood]

Typically I play 60 min days, 18 hours daylight. Scavenge POIs during light hours to see inside, so typically from 0600 (first 2 hours are still quite dark inside buildings) to 2000. Then harvest and build at night for the other 8 hours. I still seem to lvl fast and be able to build what I want and need too.

[Sarsante]

This is a more combat-oriented play style, and you would gain many more levels than I would, day-by-day. The "medium" playstyle that Sarsante outlined seems even more combat/POI oriented. No wonder he gets levels so quickly. I spend half a day chopping trees and whacking boulders (and avoiding most zombies) so I can improve (a leeetle bit) my first POI base. He's out cleansing the world of the zombie infestation instead.

 

Really, yours/Sarsante's play style makes a great co-op partner to my play style. Especially with shared XP set to 1KM. :-) And of course with non-level-gated attributes so we can specialize in what we wanna do.

 

Yeah I dont care at all building a base at the start, I just go to a roof and that's my starting base.

 

Also I don't think Im combat oriented, I'm loot oriented. To get the loot I need to clear the POI. If I dont kill the wandering horde they will enter the POi and I'll be in a bad spot between the zombies POI and the wandering horde. Or they're close to my building and they eventually will smash some blocks below my roof and I don't want that, so I kill them. I let them pass during night time, because I don't feel the risk of dying worth it.

 

So I'm not actively looking for zombies to kill and level up, i'm actively clearing POI's.

[Anabella]

You know there's a setting to adjust the hours of night in relation to the hours of daylight? If night on a server is boring that's down to a choice at world creation, not a design flaw.

 

Yea but then you end getting daylight at 2am or earlier and it stays dark. I miss the old days when you adjusted it and night just ticked away faster.

[LionsDen]

What if I have a mining light on before getting on the bicycle? Will that still give light like headlights?

 

It works now but the light doesn't reach very far at all so you need to go slow to avoid obstacles at least until the night lightens up around midnight or so.