Major flaw of the game is skill progression is way way too fast

[ElCabong]

I'll go see trader Jen on my brand new bicycle in my I tier 1 armor set and then loot every newsstand and crack a book I can find. That generally propels me from tier 1 to tier 3 with a tier 4 in armor or a weapon. I use bow and handguns, one of those three. 

 

Then I head to the desert biome, shake hands with Bob, and do the same thing there. That gets me to tier five and tier six. Then I'll go find trader Hugh, rince and repeat. That propels me beyond tier 6 in everything.

 

I am positive some go-getter will do all that before they get a bicycle.

 

I'm doing tier 3 missions in endgame gear. It's a flaw I think you know about.

 

I have heard from the YouTube "influencers" the next release will implement weather forcing you to equip something before you can enter the next biome. If this is true, I believe everything the influencers say, (face_rolling eyes) that's a good thing. It turns the learning curve from exponential to a stair step. It makes the game better.

 

If I am forced to take out something I really really want such as my headlamp or armor plate or a triple pocket mod for whatever it is I need to get into the next biome, that sucks hindtitty.

 

As I recall, tier three armor has two slots. I think I could reasonably expect to get it by  visiting the mickey mouse towns in the forest that I ignore at present. Perhaps I could get close and then get over the hump after I visit Jen. 

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 hour ago, ElCabong said:

I'll go see trader Jen on my brand new bicycle in my I tier 1 armor set and then loot every newsstand and crack a book I can find.

 

Let's say you removed all skill books from mailboxes, newsstands, and book stores. Skill books are limited to POIs and have a small change to appear in random loot containers. What does progression look like now? It's a slog for everyone. The loot tables are set for people to discover things organically. If people want to rush skill books by driving around and checking mailboxes, looting bookstores, etc., they are free to make that choice. BUT they should not complain that progress is too quick.  If you rush progression, you are going to progress. If rushing progression decreases your enjoyment of the game,  stop beelining the best sources for skill books. Loot them as you come across them rather than specifically searching them. 

 

If the progression curve is balanced so that people playing optimally have a slow progression, the game will proceed at a glacial pace for your typical  player. If anything, I think the progression curve may be a little to slow for organic players. If you build, mine, and quest you will likely still have low tier weapons when you get to tier 4 quests. That's unlikely to cut it when you start encountering radiated zombies. At that point, the player's only option is to buy a better weapon from the trader or target farm skill books. Neither is ideal.

 

 

[7daysOfFun]

2 hours ago, ElCabong said:

I'll go see trader Jen on my brand new bicycle in my I tier 1 armor set and then loot every newsstand and crack a book I can find. That generally propels me from tier 1 to tier 3 with a tier 4 in armor or a weapon. I use bow and handguns, one of those three. 

 

Then I head to the desert biome, shake hands with Bob, and do the same thing there. That gets me to tier five and tier six. Then I'll go find trader Hugh, rince and repeat. That propels me beyond tier 6 in everything.

 

I am positive some go-getter will do all that before they get a bicycle.

 

I'm doing tier 3 missions in endgame gear. It's a flaw I think you know about.

 

I have heard from the YouTube "influencers" the next release will implement weather forcing you to equip something before you can enter the next biome. If this is true, I believe everything the influencers say, (face_rolling eyes) that's a good thing. It turns the learning curve from exponential to a stair step. It makes the game better.

 

If I am forced to take out something I really really want such as my headlamp or armor plate or a triple pocket mod for whatever it is I need to get into the next biome, that sucks hindtitty.

 

As I recall, tier three armor has two slots. I think I could reasonably expect to get it by  visiting the mickey mouse towns in the forest that I ignore at present. Perhaps I could get close and then get over the hump after I visit Jen. 

we have day 22 on server i have the car, 5 books remaining to gyrocopter

i searched the books in car s/ mail boxes

i can buy the thing for making the good steel

the only one thing i didnt have is the chemiestry station (1 trader we have has a working chemistr station)

 

now its a little boring....(that things in a21 i have at day 100)

now i dont know what to do

the zombies dont destroy so much blocks in horde night = i have only 3 blocks to repair (before the half base was destroyed a21)

[ElCabong]

39 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

Let's say you removed all skill books from mailboxes, newsstands, and book stores. Skill books are limited to POIs and have a small change to appear in random loot containers. What does progression look like now? It's a slog for everyone. The loot tables are set for people to discover things organically. If people want to rush skill books by driving around and checking mailboxes, looting bookstores, etc., they are free to make that choice. BUT they should not complain that progress is too quick.  If you rush progression, you are going to progress. If rushing progression decreases your enjoyment of the game,  stop beelining the best sources for skill books. Loot them as you come across them rather than specifically searching them. 

 

If the progression curve is balanced so that people playing optimally have a slow progression, the game will proceed at a glacial pace for your typical  player. If anything, I think the progression curve may be a little to slow for organic players. If you build, mine, and quest you will likely still have low tier weapons when you get to tier 4 quests. That's unlikely to cut it when you start encountering radiated zombies. At that point, the player's only option is to buy a better weapon from the trader or target farm skill books. Neither is ideal.

 

 

You're saying I should restrain myself. Just what I'm doing in a new  game I just started. lol

[warmer]

I don't know about you, but there wasn't a single crack a book in the forest biome. 

 

I didn't get sent to see Jen until the morning of day 8. 

 

I did spy a big crack a book and intend on looting it, but I am sure I will level pretty quick being level 21 loot stage 32 hitting a Crack a book for the first time.

 

Now what happens if I spend 30 days in the first biome and never leave? I'd be leveling SUPER SLOW skill wise relying completely on lucky loot bag drops/air drops/trader rewards.

 

I think for folks that think they are leveling too quickly, it's because you already know all the tricks to do so. For a noob just starting I am sure they won't have the same experience. I have 1000+ hours of game time and don't race to the finish because I enjoy the process. All about play style.

[ElCabong]

22 minutes ago, warmer said:

I don't know about you, but there wasn't a single crack a book in the forest biome. 

 

I didn't get sent to see Jen until the morning of day 8. 

 

I did spy a big crack a book and intend on looting it, but I am sure I will level pretty quick being level 21 loot stage 32 hitting a Crack a book for the first time.

 

Now what happens if I spend 30 days in the first biome and never leave? I'd be leveling SUPER SLOW skill wise relying completely on lucky loot bag drops/air drops/trader rewards.

 

I think for folks that think they are leveling too quickly, it's because you already know all the tricks to do so. For a noob just starting I am sure they won't have the same experience. I have 1000+ hours of game time and don't race to the finish because I enjoy the process. All about play style.

I've never found a crack of book in the forest either 

You're obviously not doing as many missions as I am.

 

I am not leveling that fast. Skill progression is not level progression. I'm not that concerned about leveling or leveling fast. I frequently spend most of the day doing challenges and exploring. I don't level that much. Some of the challenges give you a lot of XP though that's not what is motivating me. I like the achievement.

 

I always want better armor and better weapons. 

 

It's not going to take a newbie long to see that by going to the next city he's going to level up his skill set quickly.

Edited July 3 by ElCabong (see edit history)

[Rotor]

So traders are still OP?

[Riamus]

6 hours ago, warmer said:

I don't know about you, but there wasn't a single crack a book in the forest biome. 

 

I didn't get sent to see Jen until the morning of day 8. 

 

I did spy a big crack a book and intend on looting it, but I am sure I will level pretty quick being level 21 loot stage 32 hitting a Crack a book for the first time.

 

Now what happens if I spend 30 days in the first biome and never leave? I'd be leveling SUPER SLOW skill wise relying completely on lucky loot bag drops/air drops/trader rewards.

 

I think for folks that think they are leveling too quickly, it's because you already know all the tricks to do so. For a noob just starting I am sure they won't have the same experience. I have 1000+ hours of game time and don't race to the finish because I enjoy the process. All about play style.

Just a note that LazMan finished a book store for country town, so we should see that in the forest in the next update.  Doesn't mean I like the limitations placed on biomes and traders because I don't, but at least that much will be covered.

Edited July 4 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

What are the settings for loot? Unless you got loot at a ridiculous setting you aren't maxing out crafting to end game gear in a few days. 

 

Hell I'm at Day 15 and only got tools and armor at 100 and that's with double dipping 2 crack a books. 

 

Mind you when I think end game I'm guessing quality 5 Melle weapon like the steel club quality 5, ranged weapons like  m60 at quality 5 and all armor at quality 5 with mods added for all gear. This isn't counting having the ammo or healing items to do a tier 5 quest. 

 

Skills progression seems fine. I wouldn't call it fast and it isn't slow either. If you thinks it's going fast cut looting down to 50% or whatever the minimum is.

 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, ElCabong said:

then loot every newsstand and crack a book I can find

 

Is it only newsstand and crack a book? Or did you loot all the mailboxes in front of houses as well? If I had to guess the majority of magazines would come from them, since I don't think you can get that far that easy with just the few newsstands and crack-a-books, even in a few cities.

 

For me those mailboxes are by far the most valuable loot boxes in the game right now. Which means they probably should be nerfed by half for example. A player could then still decide to do that to advance in crafting especially, but it will take double as much time and driving around to do that.

 

[ElCabong]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Is it only newsstand and crack a book? Or did you loot all the mailboxes in front of houses as well? If I had to guess the majority of magazines would come from them, since I don't think you can get that far that easy with just the few newsstands and crack-a-books, even in a few cities.

 

For me those mailboxes are by far the most valuable loot boxes in the game right now. Which means they probably should be nerfed by half for example. A player could then still decide to do that to advance in crafting especially, but it will take double as much time and driving around to do that.

 

I did all the mailboxes in the houses in the starter towns. The random gen I created had two trader Rekts. So there were two towns that I looted pretty good.

 

I buy the skill set books that I want when the trader has them. By the time I get the bicycle and visit trader Jen, I either have the first set of medium armor or the ability to make it but I don't have a workbench.  Usually not long after that I get what I need to make the workbench.

 

Trader Jen is not always in a city, if she is I will loot every magazine stand, crack a book, and St. Moe's I can find. I'm in tier 3 with some tier 4 armor and weapons.  Then I'll go into the desert biome and do the same thing. Then I'll go see Hugh in the snow biome.

 

After Hugh, can make beyond tier 6 weapons usually on the 4th day. I'll also have quite a few book sets maxed out. Armor doesn't advance as fast. It is tier 3.

 

If weather can keep me out of the biomes and I'm forced to take more time and be a higher level to make what it is I need to enter the biome, that's a good fix. Skill progression is stair stepped.

Edited July 4 by ElCabong (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

19 hours ago, 7daysOfFun said:

 

 

now its a little boring....(that things in a21 i have at day 100)

now i dont know what to do

the zombies dont destroy so much blocks in horde night = i have only 3 blocks to repair (before the half base was destroyed a21)

thats just a game issue, we need more destroying zombies/bosses

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Is it only newsstand and crack a book? Or did you loot all the mailboxes in front of houses as well? If I had to guess the majority of magazines would come from them, since I don't think you can get that far that easy with just the few newsstands and crack-a-books, even in a few cities.

 

For me those mailboxes are by far the most valuable loot boxes in the game right now. Which means they probably should be nerfed by half for example. A player could then still decide to do that to advance in crafting especially, but it will take double as much time and driving around to do that.

 

They did nerf mailboxes a little, but not by 50%.  Before 1.0, all mailboxes had stuff in them.  Now, some percent (maybe 20-30%?) are empty from the start and even quest resets can leave them empty sometimes.  I'd say that they could use a bit more balancing, but the only magazine I got way too many of too quickly was armor.  Everything else is already advancing slowly.  Of course, I am not going after a bunch of Crack A Book stores, but we're talking about mailboxes here and not stores.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

They did nerf mailboxes a little, but not by 50%.  Before 1.0, all mailboxes had stuff in them.  Now, some percent (maybe 20-30%?) are empty from the start and even quest resets can leave them empty sometimes.  I'd say that they could use a bit more balancing, but the only magazine I got way too many of too quickly was armor.  Everything else is already advancing slowly.  Of course, I am not going after a bunch of Crack A Book stores, but we're talking about mailboxes here and not stores.

 

To balance fewer magazines in mailboxes real book boxes and end-room chests could have more of them. For the normal player nothing would change, only the "picking-the-low-hanging-fruits"-player would be slowed down

Edited July 4 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

I think this discussion was had already during the last alpha update.  You can't just do the thing that speeds you through content, and then complain that you sped through content.  You did the thing that made it possible.  There are LOTS of ways to do that in lots of different games.  There will always be players that do the thing.

You don't have to do the thing.  A single player in a big map is going to do the thing because the thing exists everywhere and you know how to do it.

 

If it bothers you, stop doing it.   If you can't stop doing the thing, the problem isn't the game.

[ElCabong]

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I think this discussion was had already during the last alpha update.  You can't just do the thing that speeds you through content, and then complain that you sped through content.  You did the thing that made it possible.  There are LOTS of ways to do that in lots of different games.  There will always be players that do the thing.

You don't have to do the thing.  A single player in a big map is going to do the thing because the thing exists everywhere and you know how to do it.

 

If it bothers you, stop doing it.   If you can't stop doing the thing, the problem isn't the game.

I don't do it. Ruins the game

[7daysOfFun]

19 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

To balance fewer magazines in mailboxes real book boxes and end-room chests could have more of them. For the normal player nothing would change, only the "picking-the-low-hanging-fruits"-player would be slowed down

CANT CONFIRM this

the books are eays to find in mailboxes 7/10 boxes have books in it...i have collected 95 books for cars construction in 4 days

(10 buyed from trader), all other mixed from mailboxes and cars and book stores

we have day 22 on server...thats way 2 easy....in a21 i had 95books at day 80

 

[Javabean867]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:30 PM, Rotor said:

So traders are still OP?

I'd say not.  You get some small rewards for doing missions.  It makes me want to explore on my own now more than rush traders.

[ElCabong]

Looks like the consensus opinion is this is not a flaw with the game but a flaw with the player. You can choose to ruin the game for yourself anyway you want and this is just one way. 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, 7daysOfFun said:

CANT CONFIRM this

the books are eays to find in mailboxes 7/10 boxes have books in it...i have collected 95 books for cars construction in 4 days

(10 buyed from trader), all other mixed from mailboxes and cars and book stores

we have day 22 on server...thats way 2 easy....in a21 i had 95books at day 80

 

 

 I suggested to reduce magazine finds in mailboxes. And to balance that out increase other finds. But that suggestion was distributed over two posts, so not easy to grok.

Edited July 5 by meganoth (see edit history)

[7daysOfFun]

On 7/5/2024 at 8:25 PM, meganoth said:

 

 I suggested to reduce magazine finds in mailboxes. And to balance that out increase other finds. But that suggestion was distributed over two posts, so not easy to grok.

idea:

books = only in book shelver or libraries

paper für shotgut = mailboxes

 

[Bhaaltazar]

I have been thinking about it today when I was looking for some cofee in wasteland kitchens. There was ton of cooking magatines ( which I maxed already ).
Than I figured I guess looting and progressing is just all about books and magazines.

I still miss A16 learn by doing where magazines were just additions for recipes and alike. Now it feels it is all about finding all the books/mags and than game over. I sit on 12 skill points that I dont really need to invest anywhere late game ( Day 48 ).

With all the books and mags dependancy game lasts you 30 - 35 day than you have no reason why would you even do any of the T5+ quests. No reason since there are no rewards that would benefit you at the end. The only reason why I do T5+ is to clear it and than salvage it for paper mostly ( constantly lookin for T5 Bookstore quest ), to make shells for shotgun.
Don't even know why would I want to go to depressing wasteland landscape, snow gives everything you need ( well even forrest for that matter ). Main thread of the game is go after mailboxes and bookstores. Than you are half way through with current gameplay.

p.s. Dont get me wrong I love the game, been playing since A9, but I just wish they kept progression from A16 and lower. Tweak them and add magazines as addition, but now to have these as bread and butter of progression. 

Edited July 14 by Bhaaltazar (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

14 hours ago, Bhaaltazar said:

I have been thinking about it today when I was looking for some cofee in wasteland kitchens. There was ton of cooking magatines ( which I maxed already ).
Than I figured I guess looting and progressing is just all about books and magazines.

I still miss A16 learn by doing where magazines were just additions for recipes and alike. Now it feels it is all about finding all the books/mags and than game over. I sit on 12 skill points that I dont really need to invest anywhere late game ( Day 48 ).

With all the books and mags dependancy game lasts you 30 - 35 day than you have no reason why would you even do any of the T5+ quests. No reason since there are no rewards that would benefit you at the end. The only reason why I do T5+ is to clear it and than salvage it for paper mostly ( constantly lookin for T5 Bookstore quest ), to make shells for shotgun.
Don't even know why would I want to go to depressing wasteland landscape, snow gives everything you need ( well even forrest for that matter ). Main thread of the game is go after mailboxes and bookstores. Than you are half way through with current gameplay.

p.s. Dont get me wrong I love the game, been playing since A9, but I just wish they kept progression from A16 and lower. Tweak them and add magazines as addition, but now to have these as bread and butter of progression. 

I'm only a player since a18, so I don't know about the good old days, but I can understand the feeling that we're too dependent on magazines to improve usability, and the reason to take risks and explore or level up is just personal taste.

 

Problems were also raised about level-based skills, but this could have been fixed with adjustments (such as adjusting the secret stashes that were too abundant). However, this did not happen in the end.

 

So, sadly, the following answers will be given to this discussion: sales are up, vanilla definitely made the right changes, there's a problem with the way it plays, if you don't like it, get the mods.

[Scyris]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:30 PM, Rotor said:

So traders are still OP?

 

Only for getting skill magazines, those bundles are lovely. By the time your high level enough to get decent stuff at the trader you can prob craft way better than they sell.

7 hours ago, binf_shinana said:

I'm only a player since a18, so I don't know about the good old days, but I can understand the feeling that we're too dependent on magazines to improve usability, and the reason to take risks and explore or level up is just personal taste.

 

Problems were also raised about level-based skills, but this could have been fixed with adjustments (such as adjusting the secret stashes that were too abundant). However, this did not happen in the end.

 

So, sadly, the following answers will be given to this discussion: sales are up, vanilla definitely made the right changes, there's a problem with the way it plays, if you don't like it, get the mods.

 

Well yeah, as TFP has pretty much been ignoring community feedback for a long time and just doing what they want it seems. Ever since a17. a16.4's skill system was perfect it just needed a few tweaks that was it. Hell you could even have it work with the learn by looting system, just Action skills will determine what level of say, Pummel pete you can get instead of it being locked to a stat. I personally dispise the fact weapons are locked to stats, Some stats have basiclly nothing I'd want in them other than the gun skill and its just a big waste of skill points to up it for one skill. The whole stat system was by far one of the worse changes to the game as a whole. There is a reason many overhaul mods toss the stat system in the garbage where it belongs, because its just a crap system for this sort of game. It can work better in multiplayer since you can delegate roles, but it really hurts the single player experience the most.

 

A example of a better stat system would be skills divided into 3 stats, Offense, Survival, and General/Utility. Weapons and stuff would go into offense. sneak/armor skills etc into survival, and general/utility would have stuff like master chef, miner 69'er, motherload etc. This still allows players to focus if they want, but it helps balance single player out far better than the current system does. Another way to do it, is have each level give 1 perk point and 1 Stat point. With higher tiers of stats needing more and more points (maybe take 20-30 to max a stat at 10 in total?). Yet another way is have gear that can add stats to all 4 pieces of armor, so you can end up with +4 (or more as some armor sets add to a stat like miner set adding to str) to a stat. Maybe have looted gear have a chance to randomly spawn with +1 to a stat? Looted only, not crafted. There are several ways they could make the stat system less bad for single player/the game as a whole but they don't seem intersted in doing it.

On 7/3/2024 at 1:38 PM, ElCabong said:

I'll go see trader Jen on my brand new bicycle in my I tier 1 armor set and then loot every newsstand and crack a book I can find. That generally propels me from tier 1 to tier 3 with a tier 4 in armor or a weapon. I use bow and handguns, one of those three. 

 

Then I head to the desert biome, shake hands with Bob, and do the same thing there. That gets me to tier five and tier six. Then I'll go find trader Hugh, rince and repeat. That propels me beyond tier 6 in everything.

 

I am positive some go-getter will do all that before they get a bicycle.

 

I'm doing tier 3 missions in endgame gear. It's a flaw I think you know about.

 

I have heard from the YouTube "influencers" the next release will implement weather forcing you to equip something before you can enter the next biome. If this is true, I believe everything the influencers say, (face_rolling eyes) that's a good thing. It turns the learning curve from exponential to a stair step. It makes the game better.

 

If I am forced to take out something I really really want such as my headlamp or armor plate or a triple pocket mod for whatever it is I need to get into the next biome, that sucks hindtitty.

 

As I recall, tier three armor has two slots. I think I could reasonably expect to get it by  visiting the mickey mouse towns in the forest that I ignore at present. Perhaps I could get close and then get over the hump after I visit Jen. 

 

I mean if you want the game to really be a challenge you have to put limits on yourself. For example, I sometimes play with a rule where I cannot buy skill magazines or books off traders. This slows down progression a fair bit. In fact I rarely buy anything off traders, especially in 1.0 where they basically never have anything of value anymore.

 

My biggest issue is travel and the fact you need multiple bases with how the game is setup now, and the fact the vehicles are just too slow for how far your made to travel. I also dislike how random gen is no longer random, its basically the same map every time now other than what poi's spawn in the town and elevation, same sized towns and traders are static to their biome now, it removed the random from random gen. Travel issue could be solved by making vehicles faster or having some sort of fast travel system maybe between traders. I'd also like a mobile base, a vehicle I can put things like a forge into, or that I can "unpack" into a base i've previously made.

 

Don't get me wrong I still love 7dtd its my most played game on steam even if prob 95%+ of that playtime is in overhauls, its just sad to see the poor state vanilla is in and how it gets steadily worse each alpha and not better.

Edited July 15 by Scyris (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, Scyris said:

Well yeah, as TFP has pretty much been ignoring community feedback for a long time and just doing what they want it seems.

 

That is simply not true.  While they may not be implementing all the ideas that the community has provided over the years, that does not mean that they have been ignoring community feedback.

 

With version 1.0 (and earlier Alphas) we have seen changes to the game based on community feedback.  These include, but not limited to:

• Nerfing the traders
• Made crafting more important
• Removed crafting quality from perks
• The ability to limit quests per day
• Ability to craft Q6 items
• Improving Dew collectors
• Brought back the burnt biome
• More diverse POIs
• More T4 and T5 POIs
• Improved performance in large cities
• Faster RWG
• Overall performance optimization
• Wandering sleepers
• Zombie variations

 

Those are just off the top of my head that I can think of sitting here.  We all have ideas on how this game should be done, but in the end, it is TFP's game and it is based on their desire on how the game should be developed.

 

However, they understand that players may have different opinions on the game mechanics which is why they have setup the game to be easily modded.  You want LBD, you can mod it in.  Personally I prefer the current stat / perk system.  Heck, you can even mod the Stat system if you want to, go with the idea that you have - but it does take some work to do so to get the existing system converted to what you want.

 

I want to get rid of the remaining recipe unlocks from the perk books and schematics, I can easily do that by tying it into the crafting magazines system - which I have plans on doing when V1.0 goes stable.