Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[Novamourne]

Just finished up a playthrough with a friend and to be honest, it's so anti-multiplayer that I just could not enjoy the system at all. At first, it showed a lot of promise. I didn't mind the idea because I agree 100% with the goal stated by development and the reason for doing so. Still, I think this systems side effects are too detrimental, and I hope this is iterated on. 

We spent a lot of time trying to figure out who should loot which containers. It didn't make a lot of sense since they were spec'd into looting but I was asking to have priority on boxes I needed books from. It really felt like it ran against the grain there. In the end, the obvious answer is to split up and play separately but it's not a very fun one so I just told them to loot and pass books to me that they didn't need. This, of course, meant I didn't get any benefit from the systems priority drop mechanism but at least we got to play together and one of us was able to cap out.

At the end of a 40 hour playthrough, I had exactly 0 items I crafted for myself and at no point past making iron tools did we ever again use a crafted item. Between the super lucrative quest rewards, insanely well stocked traders, and gamestage-based loot quality we were in steel tier purples before the day 21 horde. Items with quality may as well be removed from crafting altogether. 

I hope this system is iterated on or changed again because I don't think I'll be playing unmodded 7days while it exists. You can tell me all the ways I'm wrong but it won't change the fact that it just wasn't fun for me. Other than that, A21 was a blast and I enjoyed pretty much everything. Really loved the new POIs and the facelifts on the older ones. You can tell whoever is working on these really love their job and I appreciate the heck out of them for that.

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Riamus said:

Well, let's just look at some specifics then.  Driving over a curb that is almost flat with the ground can cause 1% or more damage even on a minibike without supercharger or even a bicycle.  That alone is crazy even though it is a small amount.  Damage without a supercharger takes up to at least 20%.  With a supercharger, a single hit can be even higher.  This means that even if you are driving normally but at fill speed (with shift) and a supercharger, if something like an ore node comes out of nowhere because there is a delay in loading for some reason, you can take more than a quarter of your vehicle durability.  I've had minor changes in terrain cause me to take damage even when you can't really see that there even is a difference unless you are standing still.  If you drive under a tree, which is often required if offroading through a town, it is common to find a rock or other item hidden under it or just past it.  And these aren't even considering doing any crazy driving unless you count driving fast or driving offroad to be crazy.  If I want to run through something, I'll take significant damage from just one hit.  If you do this 4 times, you are probably at 0% durability without repairs.  That means regular repairs if you don't want to drive slowly everywhere.  Can you avoid it and drive as carefully as in real life?  Of course.  But I don't play a zombie game for realism.

 

I would be very interested in seeing the numbers of people who used 4x4s in A20 compared to in A21.  I would be very surprised if the number hasn't decreased significantly (probably by at least half) due to the amount of repairs it needs because of its width and the increased damage.  And this doesn't even get into the fact that damage is a percent of max durability rather than a set damage based on speed.  So a 4x4 with the extra durability takes much more actual damage for the exact same hit and speed as any other vehicle.  And repair kits aren't percent based so you have to do more repairs for a vehicle with greater durability than for one with less for the same amount of hits at the same speed.  That alone just doesn't make sense.

 

We are rather off topic now, so probably should get back to the magazines.  😁

 

Too bad its offtopic since you hit a very good point. That the 4x4 takes more repair kits because it has more durability is a real killer feature in the negative sense that should be corrected. This isn't just an opinion or matter of taste, this is objectively wrong.

 

I probably would disagree with your other points about the damage being generally too high. Remember how driving the gyrocopter is a mini-game where you can easily crash. Well, driving vehicles offroad is now similar a mini game and something you can't just do while reading in a forum on the side. Drive careless and you'll need more repair kits. Want to drive with your brains off, then use the roads.

 

I do drive with overcharger and at full speed and I seldomly hit stuff offroads when I concentrate on driving. But I also try to avoid driving under big trees and I am always ready to make last millisecond corrections to avoid suddenly popping up obstacles. And I can even drive through the wasteland this way at high speed when I concentrate on driving.

 

But I still occaisonally (or often in the wasteland) hit something popping up that I see too late, just like you. I may have to drive through a big tree and just have to accept that I sometimes will hit something, just like you. But at least on the motorbike I can easily drive to a town 2kms away and back and have lost maybe about 50% which I consider okaish. I can't speak about the 4x4, I never used it much.

 

Maybe for TFP the motorbike IS the offroad vehicle while the 4x4 is the vehicle for roads. If you use the 4x4 mostly offroads, wheeell, except a higher repair bill,

 

1% for going over some curb? That is just some value so that you have to repair your bicycle from time to time because of general wear and tear (IMHO). TFP could have also installed a timed ticking down of the durability whenver you drive but that would naturally look strange if your durability would tick down even on flat road.

 

There is also the possibility that your hardware is slow so obstacles pop out later than usual for you. Do you have >60 FPS when driving? 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

8 hours ago, Novamourne said:

We spent a lot of time trying to figure out who should loot which containers. It didn't make a lot of sense since they were spec'd into looting but I was asking to have priority on boxes I needed books from.

Between the super lucrative quest rewards, insanely well stocked traders, and gamestage-based loot quality we were in steel tier purples before the day 21 horde.

I hope this system is iterated on or changed again because I don't think I'll be playing unmodded 7days while it exists. You can tell me all the ways I'm wrong but it won't change the fact that it just wasn't fun for me. Other than that, A21 was a blast and I enjoyed pretty much everything. Really loved the new POIs and the facelifts on the older ones. You can tell whoever is working on these really love their job and I appreciate the heck out of them for that.

I am not sure what the solution is other than to rework the trader system as it throws off the crafting balance.  Balance can be improved by a player imposing their own restrictions but that is not an attractive solution (or doable) for many. 

Players will min/max the fun out of any game.  Often the min/maxing is the fun part, but in A21 that does not seem to be the case for many.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

There is also the possibility that your hardware is slow so obstacles pop out later than usual for you. Do you have >60 FPS when driving? 

My FPS varies quite a lot and for no apparent reason sometimes.  I typically am in the 40s, though it can fluctuate from 20-60 depending on what's around me.  Normally, this isn't an issue and I have object distance increased so stuff usually isn't popping up last second except when I've completed a tier 5 in a large town and everything starts lagging badly.  In those cases, moving less than full speed without using shift can still have things pop up within a couple meters of me.  I accept that and am not really complaining about damage from that, though.

[Adam the Waster]

Imo the Learn by reading feels kinda.... rushed. Imo like no lead up, no discussion that I remember, just.  Hey in alpha 21 we are adding LBR

 

While I like the system. And its fun in single player, multi-player is kinda a pain. The host mostly reads them. Aka me. 

 

I can't imagine what servers are like.  People are ether stuck in the stone age or keep hitting the traders and double loot up. 

 

I think a hybrid of LBR and LBD or even LBL (learn by reading , learn by doing and learn by leveling) 

 

 

*cough* alpha 22 dev diary

*cough cough* Overlord armor

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

Imo the Learn by reading feels kinda.... rushed. Imo like no lead up, no discussion that I remember, just.  Hey in alpha 21 we are adding LBR

 

While I like the system. And its fun in single player, multi-player is kinda a pain. The host mostly reads them. Aka me. 

 

I can't imagine what servers are like.  People are ether stuck in the stone age or keep hitting the traders and double loot up.

 

Nobody is stuck in stone age when he plays the full game. You make it sound like using the trader is some special mode of playing. Which it isn't. Avoiding the trader (for example because of the balance problems) is the special mode.

 

And this special mode works but you need to do some voodoo to make it work: Take only a few of the magazine-boosting perks. Take the lockpick perk instead of engineering when you want to bulld workstations (this is definitely voodoo).

Non-voodoo but very effective: Hit bookshops and mailboxes etc.

 

If you are playing co-op and read all the magazines then that is your choice, maybe even the right choice in your specific situation. But we play co-op multi-player as well and everyone in our group reads some of the magazines and this works well too.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

If you want to push your progression you heavily rely on raiding bookstores. But this has been the case in former alphas too, the A21 magazine system just does make it a little more "effective".

Even Khaine does concentrate on finding/raiding places with lots of bookshelves, and DF has lbd implemented.

And in the end it's more or less a "natural" thing that you would find libraries as the place to go to get knowledge.

I think the flaws are more within the details, like why the "tiers" for the food/drink progression, when you also unlock single recipies almost "per magazine"...well, never was a fan of having to learn how to make coffee anyway.

And I think progression in vehicle construction is too slow if you didn't "spec" in it. Hope that's being adjusted in the future, well to be fair, mostly because I find it very annoying to use the minibike, I just can't stand the sound, also too slow and too tiny storage. And it's a long way to the motorcycle.

[BFT2020]

28 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

And I think progression in vehicle construction is too slow if you didn't "spec" in it. Hope that's being adjusted in the future, well to be fair, mostly because I find it very annoying to use the minibike, I just can't stand the sound, also too slow and too tiny storage. And it's a long way to the motorcycle.

 

I am going to start a new playthrough with a small mod file - change the specialty crates to increase the drops of crafting magazines.  The magazines are typically in the first grouping (guaranteed) and a possible pick in a lower probability group.  I been thinking about increasing the first group from 1 pick to 3 picks to see how that affects progression.

[meilodasreh]

sounds promising. At least the "mandatory" stuff like vehicles could use a lil push in progression speed. Keep us updated how it felt if you don't mind.

[8_Hussars]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I am going to start a new playthrough with a small mod file - change the specialty crates to increase the drops of crafting magazines.  The magazines are typically in the first grouping (guaranteed) and a possible pick in a lower probability group.  I been thinking about increasing the first group from 1 pick to 3 picks to see how that affects progression.

Is there a way to mod out the increased drop chance from perks?  May be attractive for MP. 

[Roland]

17 hours ago, Novamourne said:

 You can tell me all the ways I'm wrong but it won't change the fact that it just wasn't fun for me. 

 

I won't tell you that you're wrong but I will give my opinion about why it wasn't fun for you guys:

 

17 hours ago, Novamourne said:

We spent a lot of time trying to figure out who should loot which containers. It didn't make a lot of sense since they were spec'd into looting but I was asking to have priority on boxes I needed books from. It really felt like it ran against the grain there.

 

This right here was the death knell for your group, imo. There really is no particular need to micromanage who opens a particular container. In my group we go through looting all containers we come across and whoever owns the quest gets to open the final room containers. Period. Everyone has fun opening containers and if you cycle quest ownership everyone gets to open the treasure room boxes. 

 

All magazines go into a common box back at base and people know which magazines they are reading to craft things for the group. There is no trying to figure out who to give a particular magazine to. You read the ones that are yours and dump the rest in the crate back at base and let the others find their magazines to read. It is so simple and then you can be in charge of crafting those items for everyone that you are learning.

 

From what I have read on the forums and experienced myself from playing with different groups, as soon as the group decideds to min/max containers to the point that people aren't allowed to freely loot the containers they find, there goes the team spirit and the team fun.

 

A21 definitely requires more effort for healthy group dynamics and tends to out unhealthy group dynamics by the nature of how the magazines work. My family plays together and we have had more fun and felt like more of a team by dividing up the crafting than ever before. We don't regulate who opens whatever containers other than granting the quest owner the right to the loot room and we don't think hard at all about who is supposed to get what magazine. We work it all out on Discord before Day 1 starts who is going to do what this time around and then it's easy.

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Is there a way to mod out the increased drop chance from perks?  May be attractive for MP. 

 

Easiest way to completely remove:

 

<remove xpath="//perk/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@tags,'CSM')]"/>

 

That would remove all the code for increasing drop chance of crafting magazines

 

To do a universal reduction in chances:

 

<set xpath="//perk/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@tags,'CSM') and @value='2,10']/@value">1,5</set>

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by BFT2020
forgot a instead of an when u sounds like you (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

18 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Easiest way to completely remove:

 

<remove xpath="//perk/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@tags,'CSM')]"/>

 

That would remove all the code for increasing drop chance of crafting magazines

 

To do a universal reduction in chances:

 

<set xpath="//perk/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@tags,'CSM') and @value='2,10']/@value">1,5</set>

 

Thanks Mate.

Would the reduction in chance reduce magazine drops or perk related magazine drops?

I envisioned some value in increasing the magazine drop rate overall (or quantity) a little, to compensate for a loss of the perk specific drop bonus.  

[Brugas]

You have to learn by reading skill magazines and books but your character started off with the "Can't Read or Write" drawback 😢😭

 

[BFT2020]

On 9/21/2023 at 1:36 PM, meilodasreh said:

sounds promising. At least the "mandatory" stuff like vehicles could use a lil push in progression speed. Keep us updated how it felt if you don't mind.

 

So I got some data from a single play through so far:

• 60 minutes days, new map, spawn near big city, No loot respawn, no chunk reset, default loot abundance and XP gains
• 1 trader mission per day max
• so far just in Pines forest biome
• Currently on Day 12
• Two traders found - Rekt and his twin brother Rekt
• No crafting magazine bundles chosen as rewards, but did purchase ones from the traders
• No double looting trader missions, no smash and grabs of POIs.  
• Only looted T1/T2 POIs for days 1-7, then a few T3s days 7+
• One Crack a book stored looted (T3) on day 9
• Prioritized Working Stiff stores and Auto related POIs after food and water has been setup
• Agility build - so majority of perks spent there (did the beginning quests also)
  • No perks in Int tree
  • Other perks grabbed - First level of Iron Gut, Cardio, Master Chef, and Living off the Land

 

Everything vanilla except for:

• For brand specialty crates that have crafting magazines loot groups as a count of 1, change to count of 3
• For brand specialty crates that have crafting magazines loot groups as a probability, change to count of 3 
• Added vehicle crafting magazines to the Working Stiffs crate as a possibility (medHigh I think it was), but only 1 available
• Did not make any changes to Crack A Book crates (left as is)
• Expected results - In all crates, primary crafting magazines now have a chance of spawning 1-3 magazines
  • Count of 3 means you can get unique ones or multiple copies of the same one - anywhere between 0 to 3 max total
  • This loot group has crafting magazines set at high probability but also has other items in there as well that can be picked
  • In my run so far, I had between 2-3 crafting magazines when I looted crates

 

What I observed:

• On Day 2, I had enough to craft the bicycle (no bench though)
  • One of my first missions was a Gas station POI and where I setup my base on Day 2 was another gas station POI
• Day 4, I got the bench crafted and crafted my bicycle
• Working on Day 12, but I am currently at the following:
  • 18 crafting magazines for vehicles (so just 2 more for minibike)
  • Can craft cement mixers now
  • Can craft Q4 iron tools and Q4 wrenches
  • Q4/Q5 wooden bow (not sure where exactly), Q4 9mm pistol, Q1 Double barrel
  • Q1 Leather Armor
• Most of my gear has been crafted
  • I did find a few padded pieces of armor that was higher than my level at the time
  • Did get lucky and find a Q1 toilet pistol, but nothing higher
  • Did see a Q3 double barrel shotgun for sale, but didn't have the dukes since I was using them for crafting magazines and supplies

 

Some thoughts:

• Okay so far with vehicle progression.  Even though I unlocked the bike quickly, the workbench held me up for a couple more days.  Will see how it goes past mini-bike.
• Tools, workbench, and weapons progression might be a bit too fast (might change the count from 3 to 2,3 to get some variation).  However, might not do anything at this time to see how those changes work when I incorporate  it into my main mod.
• Loving the fact that crafting has become more of a focus on just these small changes.  I could have pushed and spent dukes on that Q3 double barrel shotgun, but I knew I was close to start crafting my own so used those dukes for supplies / magazines until I could craft my own
• Ironically, not picked a single crafting bundle as a trader reward - it was only offered in the first mission (which I went with pipe bombs in case I needed them for the first horde night) and has never been offered since as a reward

On 9/22/2023 at 3:34 PM, 8_Hussars said:

Thanks Mate.

Would the reduction in chance reduce magazine drops or perk related magazine drops?

I envisioned some value in increasing the magazine drop rate overall (or quantity) a little, to compensate for a loss of the perk specific drop bonus.  

 

Just changes the bonus loot probability chance you will be getting.  You will still see mostly crafting magazines (as they are set as high probability) but more of a balanced distribution among the choices you can get

[8_Hussars]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

Just changes the bonus loot probability chance you will be getting.  You will still see mostly crafting magazines (as they are set as high probability) but more of a balanced distribution among the choices you can get

TX, again keep up the great detective work.

[meilodasreh]

Yes indeed, also big thx from me. Very structured thinking! An analytic mind loves the details 👍

[BFT2020]

So an update since I last posted one.

 

I got the minibike unlocked around Day 14 (second horde night).  I am currently on Day 25 and have unlocked the following:

• Steel Tools (Q3)
• Nailgun (Q1)
• SMG (Q4)
• Machete (Q4)
• Compound Bow (Q3)
• Military Armor (Q1)
• Chemistry Station

I am not very far on the other weapon groups (mostly just got into T1 for them) which is expected since I am leaning into the Agility build.  Close to unlocking motorcycle crafting (though I didn't check recently how close I am since I got the minibike, not been too big of a concern).  Way behind on electricity and traps, but I believe that is because I haven't hit areas that might have Mo Power crates as much as other spots.  Started to do that now since I am advancing in the horde night difficulties and would like to start adding electric traps to the mix.

[Novamourne]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:53 PM, Roland said:

There really is no particular need to micromanage who opens a particular container.

This is that age old "just don't care about it and it will be fine" argument. The entire progression of the game is pushed on the rails of this system. If there is no need for any particular person to open any particular container then why did they put a priority drop mechanism in place? Your mentality is to prioritize the fun of looting and having a normal game play loop over progressing and growing stronger. My mentality is that I want both a normal game play loop and for that loop to not actively be hindering progression.

 

On 9/21/2023 at 5:53 PM, Roland said:

All magazines go into a common box back at base and people know which magazines they are reading to craft things for the group.

Sounds like a good solution on paper, sure. We tried that too but guess what, because of the priority drop system, 9 times out of 10 whoever looted the box got a magazine from it that they specifically needed unless it was a box that didn't even have a chance to drop something they needed. In that event then, why not just pass on the container?

Bottom line is that normally, I'm what my friends refer to as "First Builder" and I stay home and do the crops and base defense. I can no longer play that way as if I'm not doing quest for rewards and Im not looting containers then Im not progressing because they receive a very minimal amount of the magazines that they don't specifically need themselves

The only way you can have fun with this system is to disregard the fact that it actively harms your growth if you play normally. The min/max argument doesn't even apply here because it's not extra steps to gain "a little more." The system actively punishes you for not playing this specific way. That's not min/maxing, that's mitigating bad design.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Novamourne (see edit history)

[AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse]

1 hour ago, Novamourne said:

Bottom line is that normally, I'm what my friends refer to as "First Builder" and I stay home and do the crops and base defense. I can no longer play that way as if I'm not doing quest for rewards and Im not looting containers then Im not progressing because they receive a very minimal amount of the magazines that they don't specifically need themselves

The only way you can have fun with this system is to disregard the fact that it actively harms your growth if you play normally. The min/max argument doesn't even apply here because it's not extra steps to gain "a little more." The system actively punishes you for not playing this specific way. That's not min/maxing, that's mitigating bad design.

Yep. Welcome to why I'm just sticking with Alpha 20 for the foreseeable future. It's no longer a survival crafting game, it's a magazine collecting looting game. If what you find fun doesn't align with that, A21 is just a frustrating mess.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Novamourne said:

This is that age old "just don't care about it and it will be fine" argument. The entire progression of the game is pushed on the rails of this system. If there is no need for any particular person to open any particular container then why did they put a priority drop mechanism in place? Your mentality is to prioritize the fun of looting and having a normal game play loop over progressing and growing stronger. My mentality is that I want both a normal game play loop and for that loop to not actively be hindering progression.

 

Sounds like a good solution on paper, sure. We tried that too but guess what, because of the priority drop system, 9 times out of 10 whoever looted the box got a magazine from it that they specifically needed unless it was a box that didn't even have a chance to drop something they needed. In that event then, why not just pass on the container?

Bottom line is that normally, I'm what my friends refer to as "First Builder" and I stay home and do the crops and base defense. I can no longer play that way as if I'm not doing quest for rewards and Im not looting containers then Im not progressing because they receive a very minimal amount of the magazines that they don't specifically need themselves

The only way you can have fun with this system is to disregard the fact that it actively harms your growth if you play normally. The min/max argument doesn't even apply here because it's not extra steps to gain "a little more." The system actively punishes you for not playing this specific way. That's not min/maxing, that's mitigating bad design.

 

If the progression curve of the players had even the smallest chance of falling behind the progression curve of the difficulty of the game then I might agree with you that unless you prioritize the opening of containers to the best person suited to that container your progression would be hindered to the detriment of possibly losing the game and being overwhelmed by the zombies.

 

But both you and I know that isn't the case since it is phenomenally easy to quickly outpace what the game throws at us. If my group doesn't prioritize the opening of containers to maximize magazine distribution and just plays normally and your group does seek to maximize magazine boosts by each team member thus putting a strict limit on who opens any container then my group will be just be slightly ahead of the difficulty curve of the game while your group will be well beyond it almost from the very start. Personally, I would find your situation boring and a game of just rinsing and repeating all the activities without any challenge whereas my situation would carry risk and the possibility of being overwhelmed even if it still unlikely to happen.

 

I've played the game with 50% loot and still managed to keep pace with the game's difficulty progression. So the question really is why does your group feel the need to progress so quickly that you'll do it at the expense of keeping things simple and fun for everyone? If you loosened up your strict rules about who gets to open what container so that your team dynamic wasn't so complicated and unfun you'd STILL find yourselves ahead of the game progression curve. The excuse that you don't want to hinder your progression is irrelevant because you could slow your pace by quite a bit and still keep pace with the game so there isn't any effectual hinderance relative to the game in any case.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Novamourne said:

This is that age old "just don't care about it and it will be fine" argument. The entire progression of the game is pushed on the rails of this system. If there is no need for any particular person to open any particular container then why did they put a priority drop mechanism in place? Your mentality is to prioritize the fun of looting and having a normal game play loop over progressing and growing stronger. My mentality is that I want both a normal game play loop and for that loop to not actively be hindering progression.

 

Sounds like a good solution on paper, sure. We tried that too but guess what, because of the priority drop system, 9 times out of 10 whoever looted the box got a magazine from it that they specifically needed unless it was a box that didn't even have a chance to drop something they needed. In that event then, why not just pass on the container?

Bottom line is that normally, I'm what my friends refer to as "First Builder" and I stay home and do the crops and base defense. I can no longer play that way as if I'm not doing quest for rewards and Im not looting containers then Im not progressing because they receive a very minimal amount of the magazines that they don't specifically need themselves

The only way you can have fun with this system is to disregard the fact that it actively harms your growth if you play normally. The min/max argument doesn't even apply here because it's not extra steps to gain "a little more." The system actively punishes you for not playing this specific way. That's not min/maxing, that's mitigating bad design.

 

What is certainly correct is that the "stay home" playstyle is almost dead if you also want to craft some stuff. But if you stay home the rest of your party could still just loot whatever they want, you wouldn't be there to loot yourself and wont get your magazines anyway, right? So I'll assume you still accompany them and then YOU get your share of loot boxes and again, there is no need for an elaborate loot scheme.

 

What you seem to forget is that crafting progression is just a part of progression and I would consider it an almost optional part. For almost everything you can craft there are the traders, trader rewards and looting as viable alternatives. Invest in better barter and daring adventurer and get whatever you want that way.

 

Cooking and seed magazines on the other hand have a lot of special containers standing around so your friends can't avoid getting them. If your friends don't want to loot those containers anymore because they don't want the recipes then you can simply ask them if they want to continue eating charred meat for eternity, otherwise they need to loot those containers. Or if you are with the group, well then loot the containers yourself when they don't want to.

 

Another possible low-maintenance solution, if you want to stay home and still want to craft, would be that each of your friends needs to put one point into a perk of your choice and another one at say lvl 20. So they would automatically loot recipes for you. Sure, they might not like that as well, but they sure don't need to think about it every few seconds while looting somewhere

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Riamus]

I think everyone agrees that with the perks affecting drop chance of magazines, it creates situations where you may have a harder time getting magazines that you or your party aren't perked into and this can adversely affect a stay at home player especially.  Roland has also acknowledged that.  There are ways to mitigate it somewhat but it still can slow you down and be harder to progress.  Even for a single player, if you don't perk into something, you can fall behind on those magazines and perking into some things early in the game isn't necessarily the best option.

 

Keeping that in mind, the reason Roland has said for the perks affecting drop chance is as a safety net so you can always get what you need and not run behind or struggle to get the magazines you need.  So the purpose is to make it so you don't have a hard time getting what you need and yet it still makes it a harder time to get what you need.  I think that is a fail.  Better to just remove the increased drop chance from perks.  If it was never added, I don't think you would see as many people frustrated as you do now.

[Ramethzer0]

Minor detail to add here.  You can also purchase some skill mags from vendors.  Small comfort I'm sure, but it does help.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Krougal]

I think I said it here but maybe it was a different conversation.

The urban areas have @%$# tons (metric) of news stands in rows and plenty of mailboxes too.

Once you've got a motorcycle it's trivial to ride around looting them even if your base is far away.

If the group left them for the base @%$# to loot that would be 1 viable method.

Granted motorcycle might be a bit too long to wait, but depending on distance minibike or even bicycle is viable.

Another option would be hitting a crack a book and the team letting you loot it while they clear it.

 

I don't consider this magazine system optimal either (I am not even sure if I like it...well, no I don't like it...I tolerate it I guess) but there are ways to minimize the inconveniences.

I couldn't play at Roland's snail pace either, I especially don't even want to deal with tier 0 @%$# for longer than about 5 minutes. I mean wtf is this Soviet invasion era Afghanistan? No, actually the Afghans living semi-nomadic and making guns in caves still turned out much higher quality weapons than these crap pipe guns and stone tools.

It seems like the MP groups are having more trouble adapting their playstyles than the SP, but those are just 2 partial solutions. Of course modding out the bonus chances from skills and making the mags just plain random would probably solve a lot of MP issues.

  

16 hours ago, Riamus said:

I think everyone agrees that with the perks affecting drop chance of magazines, it creates situations where you may have a harder time getting magazines that you or your party aren't perked into and this can adversely affect a stay at home player especially.  Roland has also acknowledged that.  There are ways to mitigate it somewhat but it still can slow you down and be harder to progress.  Even for a single player, if you don't perk into something, you can fall behind on those magazines and perking into some things early in the game isn't necessarily the best option.

 

Keeping that in mind, the reason Roland has said for the perks affecting drop chance is as a safety net so you can always get what you need and not run behind or struggle to get the magazines you need.  So the purpose is to make it so you don't have a hard time getting what you need and yet it still makes it a harder time to get what you need.  I think that is a fail.  Better to just remove the increased drop chance from perks.  If it was never added, I don't think you would see as many people frustrated as you do now.

 

Yeah, solo player for instance I find grease monkey to be an un-needed luxury, even with an int build, and yet unless you want to wait forever and a day to get a gyrocopter you need to perk into it. Of course it just makes fergettin elixir something to buy stock in, but then besides solar panels what are we really saving our Dukes for anyway.

 

I think they just need to do another balancing pass on it. I think we all agree it was a good idea in theory but the execution wasn't.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)