Will crafting balance come in alpha 22 or is crafting dead?

[retrogamingdev]

Long thread here, tried to read a lot of it. 

 

I personally play the game for the mood I am in. Sometimes, I play where I just do trader quests for my progression. Other times, I make a conscious decision to just live off my own gains and crafting. No trader quests, just work through the world like they don't exist. Whatever items I find, I do a quick glance and stats compared to what specs I am moving towards and decide if I want to use it.  Sometimes I just chose the weapon I am having more fun with, even if it is technically weaker than something else I just found. Or sometimes my crafted items are my best bet. 

 

Rarely do I consume myself so vehemently with how to min/max every aspect of my character. That seems to honestly be the biggest problem overall. It is never going to be totally balanced for every style of gameplay. Perhaps there are some more game options the Pimps could add to try and please all parties. One suggestion I saw Roland give earlier might help. 

 

After playing for like 6 or 7 years now, I do have to say I am totally pleased with A21 so far. Not saying it is complete, not saying there isn't room for improvements, but it is a fun new system overall. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by retrogamingdev (see edit history)

[lord_ahriman]

Yeap, crafting needs some love. That being said, I'd like some changes about gunpowder and gunpowder stack. It takes 15 minutes to craft 1k gunpowder, oddly 1 gunpowder stack 27 minutes. That's a very easy decision for me: 20% material saving is not worth 12 minutes.

[AtomicUs5000]

I don't like that crafting has taken a back seat, but really simply because repair exists, it will always end up taking the back seat in the long run anyway. There really is no point in putting so much thought into trying to make the crafting of weapons and tools better. You can put so much effort in coming up with the perfectly balanced way to make sure the crafting matches with looting, buying, and/or receiving with quest rewards, but to what end? Just to feel that fleeting moment of awe a few times per game? I just think that if crafting in general is getting dull, either focus should be placed on improving crafting for things other than tools and weapons, or perhaps crafting provides some features that looting, buying, and/or reward receiving cannot provide... such as enhanced stats on those weapons and tools. 
 
Really, between repair and the other ways of obtaining what you need, why bother even being able to craft weapons and tools at all? It would be more interesting to learn how craft tons of different mods that cannot be obtained any other way... mods that relate to the type of character you want to build and to the type of combat you enjoy... mods that can alter how you use those weapons and tools. Make those mods craftable using a combination of rare items that you must find in the wild and in specific biomes, rare items you find in specific POIs, rare items you can buy, and rare items you can receive as rewards. This not only keeps crafting alive and relevant, it keeps exploration, trade, questing relevant long into late game.

[RipClaw]

12 hours ago, lord_ahriman said:

Yeap, crafting needs some love. That being said, I'd like some changes about gunpowder and gunpowder stack. It takes 15 minutes to craft 1k gunpowder, oddly 1 gunpowder stack 27 minutes. That's a very easy decision for me: 20% material saving is not worth 12 minutes.

My solution is to simply build more chemistry stations and spread the workload, or just run one chemistry station on the side while the others are free for more pressing tasks.

[Aero]

I haven't made any steel tool, spear or weapon this playtrough.

 

Everything I use right now is tier 5 or 6 and all of them I got in loot or from a trader as a quest reward. And I got them wayyyy before I could make any of them myself.

 

And no, I didn't use any skillpoints to change anything for looting etc.

 

So it's fun that I can craft a tier 5 steel spear right now, but I have a tier 6 one for a very long time already.

 

Other example, I didn't spec into shotgun at all. At some point I got a tier 6 auto shotgun as a trader reward. I don't think I could even make a lvl 1 at the time.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Aero said:

I haven't made any steel tool, spear or weapon this playtrough.

And for me, it's the other way around. I made most of my equipment. The only exceptions are a Q4 assault rifle and a Q4 steel shovel. I got both as quest rewards.

 

1 hour ago, Aero said:

Everything I use right now is tier 5 or 6 and all of them I got in loot or from a trader as a quest reward. And I got them wayyyy before I could make any of them myself.

I'm pretty much on par with the trader and quest rewards in terms of the weapons and tools I specialize in.

 

1 hour ago, Aero said:

And no, I didn't use any skillpoints to change anything for looting etc.

Are you in the pine forest when you find this good loot or in another biome ?

 

2 hours ago, Aero said:

Other example, I didn't spec into shotgun at all. At some point I got a tier 6 auto shotgun as a trader reward. I don't think I could even make a lvl 1 at the time.

If you don't specialize in shotguns then you will be hard pressed to find appropriate magazines and you will be behind in manufacturing. For example, I can only craft a primitive bow but a Q5 steel spear. The reason is simply because I don't specialize in bows but in spears.

 

Your specialization doesn't matter for the reward from the trader. The quest tier and the quest type define from which loot table the reward is randomly selected.

 

[lord_ahriman]

9 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My solution is to simply build more chemistry stations and spread the workload, or just run one chemistry station on the side while the others are free for more pressing tasks.

 

I always do that. What I'm saying there is a balance problem. For example gas and gas stack the difference is just 6 minutes not 12 minutes for gunpowder-gunpowder stack. It simply doesn't make any sense.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, lord_ahriman said:

It simply doesn't make any sense.

Realistically, it could be explained with trade-offs. Making something 25% more efficiently usually costs more in in one sense or another; be it material quality, skill or just simple carefulness. 10 minutes per stack, sure it doesn't feel great without an actual explanation, but it's unlikely to break my game, most of my stations are usually idling anyway.

[Riamus]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:50 PM, lord_ahriman said:

Yeap, crafting needs some love. That being said, I'd like some changes about gunpowder and gunpowder stack. It takes 15 minutes to craft 1k gunpowder, oddly 1 gunpowder stack 27 minutes. That's a very easy decision for me: 20% material saving is not worth 12 minutes.

As theFlu said, being more efficient in your use of materials would likely take you more time if you were doing something in real life.  Having the stacks take more time provides options... do you save resources to get the gunpowder faster or do you save resources at the cost of time?  Unless you're making gunpowder at the last minute before horde night, the time to craft it doesn't really matter.  Start a bunch and go do something else.  So time is normally not an issue.  In a way, it's like cooking.  People don't like the time to cook being higher if you aren't perked into it but as long as you start cooking stuff before you need it, it can cook for hours while you're doing other things and it doesn't really matter.  It'll be ready when you get back to check on it later.

 

In most cases, I'll make stacks of gunpowder regardless of the time.  Resources may be easy to come by, but time doesn't really matter at all since I don't have to sit around waiting on it and can go do other things.

[lord_ahriman]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Realistically, it could be explained with trade-offs. Making something 25% more efficiently usually costs more in in one sense or another; be it material quality, skill or just simple carefulness. 10 minutes per stack, sure it doesn't feel great without an actual explanation, but it's unlikely to break my game, most of my stations are usually idling anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

As theFlu said, being more efficient in your use of materials would likely take you more time if you were doing something in real life.  Having the stacks take more time provides options... do you save resources to get the gunpowder faster or do you save resources at the cost of time?  Unless you're making gunpowder at the last minute before horde night, the time to craft it doesn't really matter.  Start a bunch and go do something else.  So time is normally not an issue.  In a way, it's like cooking.  People don't like the time to cook being higher if you aren't perked into it but as long as you start cooking stuff before you need it, it can cook for hours while you're doing other things and it doesn't really matter.  It'll be ready when you get back to check on it later.

 

In most cases, I'll make stacks of gunpowder regardless of the time.  Resources may be easy to come by, but time doesn't really matter at all since I don't have to sit around waiting on it and can go do other things.

 

You guys are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying it's wrong taking time to craft stacks, I'm saying it needs balance. As I said before, one stack of gas takes 9 minutes 23 seconds; 2,5k oil shale will result in the same 5k gas and it takes 9 minutes 23 seconds as well. That's the point. Why gunpowder stack needs 27 minutes to be crafted and 1k gunpowder 15 minutes? You see, same principle, stack or conventional way, but different methodology.

[AtomicUs5000]

7 minutes ago, lord_ahriman said:

You guys are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying it's wrong taking time to craft stacks, I'm saying it needs balance. As I said before, one stack of gas takes 9 minutes 23 seconds; 2,5k oil shale will result in the same 5k gas and it takes 9 minutes 23 seconds as well. That's the point. Why gunpowder stack needs 27 minutes to be crafted and 1k gunpowder 15 minutes? You see, same principle, stack or conventional way, but different methodology.

 
They'll just end up making the 1k gunpowder take 27 minutes.

[lord_ahriman]

30 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
They'll just end up making the 1k gunpowder take 27 minutes.

 

Can't see it happening. They lowered considerably time consuming from A19 to A20. I recall it would take more time (stack), but in A20 was easier to progress therefore getting beakers faster and 4/5 chemistry stations wasn't a "problem". This time and bad lucky, got just one beaker in 42 days (4 traders in rotation) so I noticed it takes a lot of time crafting stacks than "regular way". Should it takes more time? Absolutely, but not that much.

[theFlu]

51 minutes ago, lord_ahriman said:

I'm saying it needs balance.

You might be, but as you're not even hinting at what to balance against what; there's not much to say. I'm fine with the current balance, trading time mining to time crafting, at least the chem station does it on its own.

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, lord_ahriman said:

You guys are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying it's wrong taking time to craft stacks, I'm saying it needs balance. As I said before, one stack of gas takes 9 minutes 23 seconds; 2,5k oil shale will result in the same 5k gas and it takes 9 minutes 23 seconds as well. That's the point. Why gunpowder stack needs 27 minutes to be crafted and 1k gunpowder 15 minutes? You see, same principle, stack or conventional way, but different methodology.

So the point you're making is that gas doesn't take longer but gunpowder does?  That's fair but they could just increase the time to make stacks of gas if that's the case.  They've increased time for food, so I don't see any reason to think they wouldn't increase time here as well rather than reduce it.  The seem to feel that the game needs to slow down, so decreasing times doesn't seem likely.

[Krougal]

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

So the point you're making is that gas doesn't take longer but gunpowder does?  That's fair but they could just increase the time to make stacks of gas if that's the case.  They've increased time for food, so I don't see any reason to think they wouldn't increase time here as well rather than reduce it.  The seem to feel that the game needs to slow down, so decreasing times doesn't seem likely.

I agree, but I think it is probably just an oversight on the devs part.

 

[Ramethzer0]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:50 AM, lord_ahriman said:

Yeap, crafting needs some love. That being said, I'd like some changes about gunpowder and gunpowder stack. It takes 15 minutes to craft 1k gunpowder, oddly 1 gunpowder stack 27 minutes. That's a very easy decision for me: 20% material saving is not worth 12 minutes.

 

Gunpowder crafting times are even more awfully balanced when you line it up against how maps have their daytime values set.

If you're running 30 minute days versus 2 hours.. its a thing im not fond of.   If you're with a group and you gotta ration out the GP,

then suddenly it becomes a pretty intensely used commodity.   It's easy to harvest, but it gets kinda crazy when you gotta process it.

If your base cannot accommodate 8 chemi stations, well... yeah its a lot of feelbad.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[uncle7am]

I'd agree that crafting needs some TLC... After all it IS sub titled "The Survival Horde CRAFTING Game"... Not the 'Looting' or 'Trading' game 😛

I don't mind the new 'learn-by-reading' system... And i feel crafting HAS been more relevant in A21 than it was in A20... But still many parts of crafting (whatever - from ammo to weapons, vehicles, workstations, etc.) seem to get 'bypassed' by looting/trading or be otherwise made 'obsolete' long before you even learn HOW to craft it.

A lot of progression seems 'out-of-sync'.

 

Personally i would swap the 'logic' on Quality 6 gear being 'Loot-only'... To being 'Craft-only'. Looting is fun and satisfying... But crafting that 'Top-Of-The-Line' weapon or tool yourself would be even more rewarding imo. Perhaps crafting Q6 gear could be 'gated' behind some special 'loot or trade only' ingredients?... Like the new Dew Collector? Which would then involve BOTH looting AND crafting? Like 'Elite Weapon Parts' or something 😃

Edited August 15, 2023 by uncle7am (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

If you need to mass craft gunpowder and need it quickly, then someone needs to perk into physician in the Intellect tree.  Perk levels 2 and 3 gives you a 20% decrease in crafting time while Perk levels 4 and 5 gives you a 40% decrease in crafting time.  Nerdy glasses adds an additional 10% reduction in crafting.  If you get to level 4 of the perk along with glasses, gunpowder bundles take 15 minutes to craft.

 

At that point, you get a bundle of gunpowder for the same time as doing it individually and get the resource reduction.  I believe that is why they balanced it that way.

 

 

 

 

[GreasyMullet]

Duct Tape is a great example of whats broken.  To make it, you need glue.  To make glue you need water... and to get water they have cut off our supply which slows multiple things down and in some cases makes us skip entire phases of the game to save up such a scarce crafting resource.  Or... we just sell everything and go shopping at traders until we find what we want which is usually not too hard.  Bottom line is it is just super easier to just go to the traders for whatever you need, outside of making a few things like concrete, gas, and some foods... its just so much easier to trade by design.

2 hours ago, uncle7am said:

I'd agree that crafting needs some TLC... After all it IS sub titled "The Survival Horde CRAFTING Game"... Not the 'Looting' or 'Trading' game 😛

I don't mind the new 'learn-by-reading' system... And i feel crafting HAS been more relevant in A21 than it was in A20... But still many parts of crafting (whatever - from ammo to weapons, vehicles, workstations, etc.) seem to get 'bypassed' by looting/trading or be otherwise made 'obsolete' long before you even learn HOW to craft it.

A lot of progression seems 'out-of-sync'.

 

Personally i would swap the 'logic' on Quality 6 gear being 'Loot-only'... To being 'Craft-only'. Looting is fun and satisfying... But crafting that 'Top-Of-The-Line' weapon or tool yourself would be even more rewarding imo. Perhaps crafting Q6 gear could be 'gated' behind some special 'loot or trade only' ingredients?... Like the new Dew Collector? Which would then involve BOTH looting AND crafting? Like 'Elite Weapon Parts' or something 😃

I dislike the new learn by reading as with large groups it means somebody has to basically take ALL the books of a certain type.  Im ok with the other books we have had forever that add special abilities but these crafting books needs to go and be replaced with simply a skill based system like we used to have where doing the activity builds the skill.  It forces a natural progression as using and crafting the items raises your level and allows EVERYONE in the game to progress instead of just a few choice people.  Our game has 8 people and its such a pain to keep up with who is reading what... and if our cook does not join one evening then that really hurts.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, GreasyMullet said:

Duct Tape is a great example of whats broken.  To make it, you need glue.  To make glue you need water... and to get water they have cut off our supply which slows multiple things down and in some cases makes us skip entire phases of the game to save up such a scarce crafting resource.  Or... we just sell everything and go shopping at traders until we find what we want which is usually not too hard.  Bottom line is it is just super easier to just go to the traders for whatever you need, outside of making a few things like concrete, gas, and some foods... its just so much easier to trade by design.

I dislike the new learn by reading as with large groups it means somebody has to basically take ALL the books of a certain type.  Im ok with the other books we have had forever that add special abilities but these crafting books needs to go and be replaced with simply a skill based system like we used to have where doing the activity builds the skill.  It forces a natural progression as using and crafting the items raises your level and allows EVERYONE in the game to progress instead of just a few choice people.  Our game has 8 people and its such a pain to keep up with who is reading what... and if our cook does not join one evening then that really hurts.

Yeah, I don't like it at all either. SP you have to do everything yourself, but then you get 100% of everything too.

MP it's like built for specialization but then you are dependent on those people showing up.

 

That seems to be the way they keep moving though, what with the sneak peaks of the stupid outfits for A22 (no, I can tell you already I @%$#ing hate them and what they represent). Next A23 will have full blown @%$#ing character classes. Everything these days has to be generic RPG.

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, uncle7am said:

I'd agree that crafting needs some TLC... After all it IS sub titled "The Survival Horde CRAFTING Game"... Not the 'Looting' or 'Trading' game 😛

I don't mind the new 'learn-by-reading' system... And i feel crafting HAS been more relevant in A21 than it was in A20... But still many parts of crafting (whatever - from ammo to weapons, vehicles, workstations, etc.) seem to get 'bypassed' by looting/trading or be otherwise made 'obsolete' long before you even learn HOW to craft it.

A lot of progression seems 'out-of-sync'.

 

Personally i would swap the 'logic' on Quality 6 gear being 'Loot-only'... To being 'Craft-only'. Looting is fun and satisfying... But crafting that 'Top-Of-The-Line' weapon or tool yourself would be even more rewarding imo. Perhaps crafting Q6 gear could be 'gated' behind some special 'loot or trade only' ingredients?... Like the new Dew Collector? Which would then involve BOTH looting AND crafting? Like 'Elite Weapon Parts' or something 😃

I think what you say about creating is correct.  People seem to craft more in A21, but it is still broken.  I see no value in creating high tier stuff because it is too costly.  I'm not going to spend time making a ton of duct tape to craft high tier stuff.  I'd rather go find it instead.  Crafting doesn't keep pace with the rest of the options for great progression for most people, so it is often not worth crafting because you can get great faster in other ways.

 

Crafting definitely needs more banking and some improvements so people want to craft and have creating be worthwhile.

 

As far as magazines, I originally thought they were good but it is tiring to join a game and have to ask everyone else to make you stuff because they are doing the crafting and reading the magazines.  Do I "waste" some magazines someone can use to get closer to max level just so I can personally make a low quality some weapon or tool?  I would prefer to buy it isn't a good option for everyone to do that.  So now I don't like individual crafting that prevents others from also leveling crafting if they like.  Specialization is fine if you want, but people should still have a viable option to craft their own stuff without hurting the crafting of others in the group.

[binf_shinana]

ダクトテープは頑張って自分で作るより、トレーダーで購入したほうがおそらく効率が良いです。
ここでもトレーダーが介在してきてしまいます。困った。

 

(Google Translation)

It's probably more efficient to buy duct tape from a trader rather than trying to make it yourself.
Again, the trader will intervene. I'm in trouble.

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, binf_shinana said:

ダクトテープは頑張って自分で作るより、トレーダーで購入したほうがおそらく効率が良いです。
ここでもトレーダーが介在してきてしまいます。困った。

 

(Google Translation)

It's probably more efficient to buy duct tape from a trader rather than trying to make it yourself.
Again, the trader will intervene. I'm in trouble.

I buy every last bit of tape and glue I can find and still it isn't enough.

The only sane answer is more dew collectors. Buying the water filters to make them pay for themselves in a few days if you are buying water as well, especially since vending machines don't give a discount.

[binf_shinana]

6 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I buy every last bit of tape and glue I can find and still it isn't enough.

The only sane answer is more dew collectors. Buying the water filters to make them pay for themselves in a few days if you are buying water as well, especially since vending machines don't give a discount.

100個以上など、大量に必要であればそれがよいでしょう。（個人的にはそこまで必要はなかったため、買うか拾えば足りました）

Heat値の問題がありますが、露収集機を複数に分散して配置すると影響をほぼ無視することができます。

防衛が面倒なときにお試しあれ。

(Google Translation)

If you need a large quantity, such as 100 or more, that's fine. (Personally, I didn't need it that much, so it was enough to buy or pick it up.)
Although there is a problem with the heat value, the effect can be almost ignored by distributing the dew collectors in multiple places.
Try it when defense is troublesome.

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Krougal said:

I buy every last bit of tape and glue I can find and still it isn't enough.

The only sane answer is more dew collectors. Buying the water filters to make them pay for themselves in a few days if you are buying water as well, especially since vending machines don't give a discount.

Yeah, I've been going with 36 dew collectors in most of my worlds.  Granted, I have the mod that lets me compress them, so the 36 is really only 4 that I have to loot/place.