What was the point of the water change?

[meganoth]

One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.

 

Because if I understand many of you correctly the discrepancy that stands out among all the other discrepancies that were always and will always be there is that you can drink lake water but not store it and drink it later for the same effect.

 

Balance would be affected by having no emergency source of drinking. But you could simply incorporate the damage done by drinking lake water into the debuff of being thirsty. I.e. when you are under 10% water you simply get the damage as if you drank one water from a lake. And this would be repeated in about the same time that one lake water drink would last you.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Krougal]

25 minutes ago, meganoth said:

One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.

 

Because if I understand many of you correctly the discrepancy that stands out among all the other discrepancies that were always and will always be there is that you can drink lake water but not store it and drink it later for the same effect.

 

Balance would be affected by having no emergency source of drinking. But you could simply incorporate the damage done by drinking lake water into the debuff of being thirsty. I.e. when you are under 10% water you simply get the damage as if you drank one water from a lake. And this would be repeated in about the same time that one lake water drink would last you.

 

 

Drinking aside, it doesn't matter if the water were toxic. Other than for certain people who like to eat glue, the glue doesn't need to be made with potable water.

Dysentery is bad enough, I don't think the standing water needs anymore penalty than that. Considering how abundant murky water is from looting, I don't see why anyone would think it is unreasonable to have other options of getting it. We're still talking about giving murky water.

Even as it is, it's either something you only drink in emergencies or it's a reliable water source if you have a purifier.

The water purifier is still the white elephant in the room here. Oh, and the working and stocked vending machines that are EVERYWHERE.

 

[retrogamingdev]

First, I will admit I didn't read all 7 pages of comments.

 

But, the whole 'realism' thing is thrown on so many fronts, I don't think it is that strange that they did away with the containers. Like, my guy can run around with 17 tons of concrete in his backpack... 

 

Yes, I do see the OPs point, where did it go?? But, I think some of these stretches are here for the sake of gameplay overall. Like, now we don't need to haul around empty cans, jars, etc... we can just think of it as a one time use item. You get the water, you use it and it is freed from your inventory. Make more room for concrete anyways 😁

[Rotor]

2 hours ago, retrogamingdev said:

First, I will admit I didn't read all 7 pages of comments.

I will admit if you would have, you could have saved a bunch of electrons :).

Edited September 27, 2023 by Rotor (see edit history)

[zztong]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

One easy thing to change if immersion is important without much change to balance would be to remove the ability to drink from water directly. Lake water is simply toxic.

In the pandemic, the traps for drainage pipes, sinks, and toilets in our University buildings dried up which let cockroaches into the buildings. That only took 6 months to happen.

 

If I were getting rid of anything, it would be making all the forms of water/drink in the loot extremely scarce, basically leaving only the rivers and lakes. Assuming the game is taking place more than 6 months after the fall of civilization, the water in plumbing would have evaporated or also become toxic. Survivors would have already picked over water stored in POIs. The only significant water remaining would be the natural sources. Collecting rain water and Dew would be possible though they're not potable sources, so you'd still have to boil them. Bacteria lives on the plastic that catches the water. Bird poop and other contaminates also find their way into rain water and dew collectors.

 

Toxic or not, folks would be drinking non-potable water out of desperation or they'd be filtering and purifying water with solar stills or something more advanced such as represented by the game's Chemistry Station.

 

In terms of game play, I like this too, as it creates a reason to go out into the wild and not be in POIs all the time.

[Rotor]

ZZ for prez!

[zztong]

13 minutes ago, Rotor said:

ZZ for prez!

 

Oh please, no. I'll shut up, I promise.

[Greymantle]

The focus of the game is traders/quests/vending machines these days. TFP decided to take the easy way out when they shifted to these systems. It's much easier to create content when it all comes from the same place, traders. I feel betrayed by TFP, but that is just me.

[Roland]

I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag than an attempt to realistically mirror the evaporation state of water tanks after 6 months of inactivity.

 

I agree that murky water in loot is too high. It was originally lower before the release and I don't know whether someone panicked at the last minute about possible death spirals due to thirst and so upped it to make things more forgiving but it sure seems like the need to drink from ponds, rivers, and gutters was real and a dew collector was a must in the pre-release version and now they seem optional to just scavenging POIs for all you really need.

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, Krougal said:

Drinking aside, it doesn't matter if the water were toxic. Other than for certain people who like to eat glue, the glue doesn't need to be made with potable water.

Dysentery is bad enough, I don't think the standing water needs anymore penalty than that. Considering how abundant murky water is from looting, I don't see why anyone would think it is unreasonable to have other options of getting it. We're still talking about giving murky water.

Even as it is, it's either something you only drink in emergencies or it's a reliable water source if you have a purifier.

The water purifier is still the white elephant in the room here. Oh, and the working and stocked vending machines that are EVERYWHERE.

 

 

So, would you agree that it is a balancing problem? I.e. too much water to find in loot, price of water in vending machines too low, money too easy to get?

 

[Krougal]

17 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

So, would you agree that it is a balancing problem? I.e. too much water to find in loot, price of water in vending machines too low, money too easy to get?

 

Absolutely!

[zztong]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag than an attempt to realistically mirror the evaporation state of water tanks after 6 months of inactivity.

 

I agree. My comments were in response to what I perceived to be a discussion of "realistic immersion."

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I agree. My comments were in response to what I perceived to be a discussion of "realistic immersion."

 

Yeah, don't get me started on being able to use a battery from a vehicle that has been sitting that long unused, or even a working engine  😏

[Riamus]

I can see it now... TFP listens to the feedback and in A22:

 

No murky water or other drinks in loot or at traders or in vending machines.  No change to how you can drink water from lakes and rivers currently and still no way to carry it away so that you have no choice but to have a dozen dew collectors per person even if you aren't doing much crafting.

 

Batteries and engines cannot be found in loot and must be crafted or bought to simulate the reality of them no longer being good after years of sitting around.

 

All lights everywhere are out as there is no one running the electric grid.

 

Practically all loot is gone besides scraps as it's already picked clean long ago.

 

Won't that realistic immersion be so much fun!

[Krougal]

Don't forget that fossil fuels will go bad in a couple years too.

Ever tried to use some old gas in your lawn mower?

 

So how long ago was the apocalypse anyway? That is an important question that I don't recall ever seeing answered here.

From the state of things, I would think it is fairly recent, like in our (the survivors) lifetime but who knows what the Pimps consider it (or if they've even considered it at all)

 

[Krougal]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag

And the toilet gun! Homage to one of the greatest movies of all time.

[BFT2020]

56 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I can see it now... TFP listens to the feedback and in A22:

 

No murky water or other drinks in loot or at traders or in vending machines.  No change to how you can drink water from lakes and rivers currently and still no way to carry it away so that you have no choice but to have a dozen dew collectors per person even if you aren't doing much crafting.

 

Batteries and engines cannot be found in loot and must be crafted or bought to simulate the reality of them no longer being good after years of sitting around.

 

All lights everywhere are out as there is no one running the electric grid.

 

Practically all loot is gone besides scraps as it's already picked clean long ago.

 

Won't that realistic immersion be so much fun!

 

40 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Don't forget that fossil fuels will go bad in a couple years too.

Ever tried to use some old gas in your lawn mower?

 

That's spooky.  That's almost what I modded

 

• Gas is bad and has to be filtered (at a lost) for any you find while looting
• Drinks and food has been removed from loot tables (just murky water, seeds, and canned goods)
• Engines are replaced with engine parts in loot tables, and requires additional components to craft a new one
• Batteries are dead in loot (just a source of lead)

The only things I didn't do was to remove all power lights from the game in the world unless crafted by player (not sure if I want to go that route yet) and still kept items in loot so you can still find armors, weapons, and tools (though you can't fix them so they only last so long).

 

And yes, I been having a blast playing this way  😏

 

But this is definitely not wide spread fun for everyone  🤷‍♂️😄

[meilodasreh]

43 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Don't forget that fossil fuels will go bad in a couple years too.

Yes.

For consistency and also immersion/realism reasons fuel should be "murky" if you find it and it has to be boiled redestilled to get clean/usable fuel again.

Also you shouldn't be able to "harvest" it directly from the source like cars, gas pumps, barrels,...

Instead you should have to craft a "drip-collector", a special "workstation" made out of a big tarp that can be put underneath cars, to collect drops of fuel which would come out of the - after all that time obviously leaking - tanks.

 

Let's say these require some filter (special buy-at-traders-only item), a bunch of scrap polymer and other stuff, and when placed, it automatically starts to collect up to three full "gas cans" per day, at the cost of also creating some heat that will lure in screamers.

You would have to get to these "drip collectors" regularly to collect the fuel to avoid it stopping because it's "full".

 

Sounds like a total crap idea to me. 🤭

 

 

[Syphon583]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Batteries are dead in loot

I'm curious, in your mod can you still drop those batteries in a bank hooked up to a generator to recharge them? Or can those dead batteries be used in the recipe for any of the vehicles or is it a custom item designated as a "dead battery" which differs it from others?

[Jost Amman]

After reading the last 10 comments or so, I'm happy it's The Fun Pimps developing the game, and not you guys.

You wouldn't be able to tell fun from a boring if your life depended on it... 

 

Unless you were just bantering.

[Krougal]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

After reading the last 10 comments or so, I'm happy it's The Fun Pimps developing the game, and not you guys.

You wouldn't be able to tell fun from a boring if your life depended on it... 

 

Unless you were just bantering.

We feel the same way about you 😛

 

[Ramethzer0]

9 hours ago, Krougal said:

Don't forget that fossil fuels will go bad in a couple years too.

Ever tried to use some old gas in your lawn mower?

 

 

Chiming in on this one:  Gasoline itself is not shelf stable.  If its stored poorly it can go bad as quickly as a few weeks.  Stored properly, it can go for longer but it has the tendency to still go bad after half a year.  Kerosene starts to behave weird after a while, due to condensation, and I've not done much research on natural gas but in a bug out situation I wouldn't expect it to last long.   I've got more concerns about the integrity of the containers that fossil fuels tend to be stored in.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

14 hours ago, Krougal said:

Don't forget that fossil fuels will go bad in a couple years too.

Ever tried to use some old gas in your lawn mower?

 

So how long ago was the apocalypse anyway? That is an important question that I don't recall ever seeing answered here.

From the state of things, I would think it is fairly recent, like in our (the survivors) lifetime but who knows what the Pimps consider it (or if they've even considered it at all)

 

Calendars in the game show 2034, so that appears to be the date when the apocalypse happened.  But beyond that, I don't think anything has shown how long it's been.  Based on how things look (which isn't a good measure in this game), I'd guess 5-10 years after the apocalypse.

5 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

Chiming in on this one:  Gasoline itself is not shelf stable.  If its stored poorly it can go bad as quickly as a few weeks.  Stored properly, it can go for longer but it has the tendency to still go bad after half a year.  Kerosene starts to behave weird after a while, due to condensation, and I've not done much research on natural gas but in a bug out situation I wouldn't expect it to last long.   I've got more concerns about the integrity of the containers that fossil fuels tend to be stored in.

There's also the fact that it'll evaporate over time, so even if it didn't go bad, it probably would be gone by the time the game is based.

[Jost Amman]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:24 PM, Jost Amman said:

The simple solution to all water balancing issues would be to make water evaporate (or spill out) over time from containers (jars) because you can't close them tight enough. That would mean that you could store water, but you wouldn't be able to build a huge stock of water if you're far away from a water source.

 

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

There's also the fact that it'll evaporate over time, so even if it didn't go bad, it probably would be gone by the time the game is based.

 

Hmm, this reminds me of something... 

[BFT2020]

19 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

After reading the last 10 comments or so, I'm happy it's The Fun Pimps developing the game, and not you guys.

You wouldn't be able to tell fun from a boring if your life depended on it... 

 

Unless you were just bantering.

 

Do you think I was just bantering?  😏

 

Something about having to make choices and plan ahead, each day of survival, just appeals to me.