What was the point of the water change?

[GlassDeviant]

There was nothing wrong with the water system. Loot, or make jars and collect water. Boil it. Use it. Simple and effective. I've seen some dumb changes to this game, but this one goes right over the top. So enlighten me, what is the justification for the change?

 

[Greymantle]

The idea was to make water more rare, I guess. All they did was create a forced tedium game-loop to make it seem like water is scarce. The problem is there is water everywhere, and yet I can't find a container to fill up with said water.

[Vaeliorin]

Seems mostly like an early game money sink.  After you've got a few dew collectors set up, it's mostly just the tedium of having to loot them every day.

[Riamus]

There is water to be found but I don't think anyone can say that you can get anywhere near as much water now as before.  I could have had 100 water easily in the first couple of days in A20 of I wanted and never worry about water again.  Now, it takes more time to build up a good supply and it's still not going to equal A20.  That was the point.  It isn't necessarily that it is hard but that you can't basically stick up in the first week and never look for water again the entire game, which was really possible in A20.  That being said, getting a stack of 10 water as a quest reward should be removed or at least reduced to no more than 3, if that.

[Greymantle]

27 minutes ago, Riamus said:

There is water to be found but I don't think anyone can say that you can get anywhere near as much water now as before.  I could have had 100 water easily in the first couple of days in A20 of I wanted and never worry about water again.  Now, it takes more time to build up a good supply and it's still not going to equal A20.  That was the point.  It isn't necessarily that it is hard but that you can't basically stick up in the first week and never look for water again the entire game, which was really possible in A20.  That being said, getting a stack of 10 water as a quest reward should be removed or at least reduced to no more than 3, if that.

 

This is the main issue I have with this update. They want us to use the traders because of all the development time they spent on them.

[madmole]

There were several reasons to change it.
1.) Water was never a survival issue before. It was something you did once, go craft 500 jars, fill them up and your done for your entire play through.
2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

3.) Water jars is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted. One less wasted slot in inventory.

[Exxodous]

1 hour ago, GlassDeviant said:

There was nothing wrong with the water system. Loot, or make jars and collect water. Boil it. Use it. Simple and effective. I've seen some dumb changes to this game, but this one goes right over the top. So enlighten me, what is the justification for the change?

 

Because it's a survival game maybe?

[Riamus]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, Greymantle said:

 

This is the main issue I have with this update. They want us to use the traders because of all the development time they spent on them.

Why do you think you need to use the traders?

 

* You can drink murky water from a water source if you need to and just risk dysentery.  Not a big deal.

* Go to a few houses and check the toilets and most will have murky water, not to mention what you find from cabinets and sinks and such.  Boil it if you find out make a pot.  Making a pot isn't that hard and the forge to do so isn't that hard either. Pots aren't too hard to find usually. Just look in kitchens in houses.

* Go to a few businesses that have vending machines (not the pay kind but the loot kind) and you'll find a variety of drinks from murky water to regular water to tea to mineral water.

 

There are many options for drinks.  Drinks aren't really hard in A21.  It is just different.  People think that because there is water at the trader and it is convenient to get it there that it means they are supposed to use the trader for water but it isn't necessary unless you like the convenience and don't mind paying.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

1 hour ago, madmole said:

There were several reasons to change it.
1.) Water was never a survival issue before. It was something you did once, go craft 500 jars, fill them up and your done for your entire play through.
2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

3.) Water jars is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted. One less wasted slot in inventory.

1: Then why the change? Remove the water.

2: Here is an idea, make duct tape more rare? Harder to craft? Would think this would be easier, no?

3: Again remove the water problem solved.

 

You made it an issue, that was never an issue on our end. I can't even recall any threads in the past on said issue. Is this a database issue on your end, or something you just didn't like from the start? Anyway you changed it, so it has become an issue for many, don't you see that right here on your forums let alone steam forums.

.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Greymantle said:

1: Then why the change? Remove the water.

2: Here is an idea, make duct tape more rare? Harder to craft? Would think this would be easier, no?

3: Again remove the water problem solved.

 

You made it an issue, that was never an issue on our end. I can't even recall any threads in the past on said issue. Is this a database issue on your end, or something you just didn't like from the start? Anyway you changed it, so it has become an issue for many, don't you see that right here on your forums let alone steam forums.

.

If water has become an issue for people then it sounds like TFP succeeded. As MM stated they wanted to make water more important and duct tape more restricted early game. 
 

Now if the real problem is that people on PVP or non-cooperative servers are having problems, that is for the server admins to fix. Vanilla 7d2d is designed for solo and cooperative multiplayer but is easily modded for other types of play. 

[Greymantle]

I will give you that they succeeded all right. The problem is what you seem to see as success, I see as a lot of unhappy people.

[Riamus]

And yet if you wait a month until people get used to the change, few people will care that there aren't glass jars anymore.  They won't even notice unless someone points it out and then they'll remember and realize they weren't needed after all.  I don't even notice the lack except when I realize I don't have time of then floating around in chests and am happy about that.

 

*Maybe 2 months as a month from now more people will just get their first look at it when A21 goes to stable.  Those that are using it now will likely not mind the change in a month, though.

[Maverick]

36 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

If water has become an issue for people then it sounds like TFP succeeded. As MM stated they wanted to make water more important and duct tape more restricted early game. 
 

Now if the real problem is that people on PVP or non-cooperative servers are having problems, that is for the server admins to fix. Vanilla 7d2d is designed for solo and cooperative multiplayer but is easily modded for other types of play. 

If the only reason for making a change is to change how people play the game, instead of what people play with, you really messed up your priorities.

Changes should be made to make the game more enjoyable, and not to force players in a direction. When you're at that point, you might as well just stop changing anything. 

 

Ever seen those videos on YouTube about devs reacting to speedrunners completing their 40 hour game in 10 minutes and actually say "good for them, they must really like our game of they play it so much in this way".

Yeah, this is the exact opposite 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Maverick (see edit history)

[madmole]

29 minutes ago, Greymantle said:

I will give you that they succeeded all right. The problem is what you seem to see as success, I see as a lot of unhappy people.

Vocal minority like usual. Some people hate changes, but will come back later and say it was a good change and they were knee jerking. Water is supposed to be a rare commodity in an apocalypse, not all you can drink buffet on day 1.

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, Maverick said:

If the only reason for making a change is to change how people play the game, instead of what people play with

The problem was a complete lack of survival in a survival game; now, I'm not a fan of the changes, but to pretend like the change was made "just to go against the players wishes" is just nonsense. It was made to make a survival game more survivaly.

 

My main gripe is the "loot a thousand books to craft things"; it's fine for one round, but it's going absolutely kill re-starting for me. Compared to that, "gather 100 plastic three times per player" is pretty much peanuts.

[Kosmic Kerman]

3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

If the only reason for making a change is to change how people play the game, instead of what people play with, you really messed up your priorities.

Changes should be made to make the game more enjoyable, and not to force players in a direction. When you're at that point, you might as well just stop changing anything. 

Maybe you missed the part where MM weighed in and said it was changed because: water was trivial and duct tape was too plentiful early game. That’s not “forcing players in a direction”. That’s addressing a balance and progression issue in a game. If water is no longer trivial and duct tape is harder to come by, the Devs have achieved their goal to change the progression curve and have succeeded. 

[AtomicUs5000]

2 hours ago, madmole said:

There were several reasons to change it.
1.) Water was never a survival issue before. It was something you did once, go craft 500 jars, fill them up and your done for your entire play through.
2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

3.) Water jars is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted. One less wasted slot in inventory.

I agree with the need for change, for these reasons if not others.
However, before there was water everywhere! I don't understand that if this was a concern for so long, then why was it so abundant in the world for so long? Couldn't there have been a middle of the road solution starting with not putting it in loot so much?

Edited June 14, 2023 by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)

[Maverick]

11 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Maybe you missed the part where MM weighed in and said it was changed because: water was trivial and duct tape was too plentiful early game. That’s not “forcing players in a direction”. That’s addressing a balance and progression issue in a game. If water is no longer trivial and duct tape is harder to come by, the Devs have achieved their goal to change the progression curve and have 

Quoting here:

"And considering it was a dumb decision, I elected to ignore it"

 

Remove lakes and rivers and we'll talk about water shortages. The way it's implemented now is just a quick "We DoN't WaNt ThAT" change by the devs. Some people just need to except that this game was never a hardcore survival game and never will be, because of the way the game was built to begin with.

What's next? Removing guns because we don't die enough to the zombies? 

 

And keep shouting "vocal minority", how are sales going when not on 70% off?

Edited June 14, 2023 by Maverick (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 minute ago, Maverick said:

Quoting here:

"And considering it was a dumb decision, I elected to ignore it"

 

Remove lakes and rivers and we'll talk about water shortages. The way it's implemented now is just a quick "We DoN't WaNt ThAT" change. Some people just need to except that this game was never a hardcore survival game and never will be, because of the way the game was built to begin with.

What's next? Removing guns because we don't die enough to the zombies? 

The game is what TFP wants it to be. If they think water or food is too easy or too hard they will change it. It’s not about whether people think it should be a hard core survival game or not. 

 

PS I’m not sure who you think you are persuading with all of the hyperbole.  It’s not an effective form of persuasion and TFP have seen it a million times before. 

[Slingblade2040]

2 hours ago, madmole said:

There were several reasons to change it.
1.) Water was never a survival issue before. It was something you did once, go craft 500 jars, fill them up and your done for your entire play through.
2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

3.) Water jars is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted. One less wasted slot in inventory.

So your solution was to have people make 10 dew collectors and spam them all over the place instead? Did you forget that you need to go out and collect those bones to make the glue then the cloth to craft the duck tape. All of that takes a lot of time especially to craft it into a large amount. 

 

If you are worried about folks getting OP stuff then you should really nerf the traders and not let them sell weapons, tools or crafting stations because getting dukes isn't that difficult either. Also maybe not put end tier loot on top of buildings people can nerd poll into.

 

A bad idea is still a bad idea, the problem is admitting that the idea was bad.

[Maverick]

4 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

The game is what TFP wants it to be. 

And THAT is exactly the problem.

Everyone knows TFP is already working on the sequal. Good luck selling that with that attitude.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Maverick (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

14 minutes ago, Maverick said:

And THAT is exactly the problem.

Everyone knows TFP is already working on the sequal. Good luck selling that with that attitude.

I’m not sure you’ve really thought this through. If you don’t share their vision, you shouldn’t buy the next game.  If TFP designs games based on the whims of random forum posters, no one should buy their game because it will be a complete and utter disaster.

[DOAM]

2 hours ago, madmole said:

There were several reasons to change it.
1.) Water was never a survival issue before. It was something you did once, go craft 500 jars, fill them up and your done for your entire play through.
2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it.

3.) Water jars is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted. One less wasted slot in inventory.

 

Funny, minecraft is exactly what this change reminds me of. Because the first thing I did with my ole minecraft buddy is went and made 2 buckets, filled with water from the first watering hole we found, came back, dug a little hole, and now we have infinite water. Can't make duct tape... but infinite drinking supply. This feels too minecrafty to me.

 

If it was a survival issue, and a duct tape supply issue, I would have much preferred timers and/or shatter chance on the water. How long it stays pure enough to make duct tape, and how long it stays pure enough to safely drink. Chance for jars to shatter while boiling, chance to shatter while moving, chance to shatter while hitting/being hit, chance to shatter when getting killed, etc., etc..

 

Now even *IF* you manage to make it back to base with 500 jars of water stashed in your... backpack?... without them shattering, and then boil them without them shattering, then get them into the cupboard without them shattering, they'll still "rot" after X amount of time.

 

 

The current change just feels minecrafty and repetitive and dull and, worse, even though I have a couple dew collectors now, water feels completely out of my control. Don't like that.

 

Also dew collectors feel bad, but I can't put words to it. Other than bad. Maybe sad and frustrating too. But I can't explain why.

[zombiehunter]

27 minutes ago, Maverick said:

And THAT is exactly the problem.

Everyone knows TFP is already working on the sequal. Good luck selling that with that attitude.

And if you were developing a game wouldn't you want it to turn out as you wanted/envisioned it?

 

I haven't played A21 yet so I don't have an opinion on the water change.  If it turns out it's a deal breaker for me (I highly doubt it will be), it will be my choice to continue to play the game or not, as it is yours.

[Aileras]

Dew collectors are for people trapped on a island with nothing but salt water or maybe a desert. In this situation boiling and filtering water from streams and lakes or rain water, would be the method survivors would use. Just saying it doesn't fit the situation. That being said as a game mechanic, it's not that big a deal, just seems like an unnecessary change to me. In my opinion, making things annoying doesn't make them challenging and it for sure doesn't make them fun.