Someone has to say it: The loot system sucks....

[TheWayMan]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been playing recently again. Not knowing a lot I played until day 21 in the forest biome mostly only going out to towns to look for traders. 

All of my big cities are in the forest (all my T5poi's). Well I have been getting pipe shotguns and everything still. My game stae is almost 100(i think 96). The horde nights are extremely hard with a damn pipe shotgun and pipe pistol and T1 stuff. I got to thinking to myself, man this crap is not balanced something is wrong with my game. I start looking at YT vids and everything. Come to find out I spent 21 days in a useless biome completely wasted my time even looting in the forest. My loot at level 50 is 50, wtf lol. With game stage 100? Bro come on how is that balanced? I have been looting hard PoI's getting hack shiz nit. So I caved in, lets go to the snow biome. BRO level 50 in snow I get like 180 loot. Got a few points of lucky looter and some goggles we blasting I am now getting steel clubs completely past t2 equipts I am getting good stuff AK's level 6 etc. Where the crap did my mid game go? I am sorry but your main prority should be fixing this. I don't give a crap about how the game looks, if I cared about that I would have never even gotten the game, and most people agree with that statement because it is true. I should not be hindered so hard in anyway as to just playing the game.

[Fox]

lol, everyone knows the loot system sucks and have already complained many times about it over the years (you're definitely not a minority there). Unfortunately the devs will continue using the dumb tier based system (which has never worked for most players as everyone likes to play differently). I guess in the devs' mind, it's a way to control the player from getting end game stuff too early, but all it really does is makes looting predictable / boring and discourages exploration and loot runs and instead influences us into focusing more on trader quests and crafting skills (a more linear play style). EDIT: Or they build their base in the Forest biome on the edge of a "difficult" biome (I say it loosely because honestly, they're all easy once you know what to expect), then loot the "difficult biome and completely ignore the loot in the "easier" biomes because the difference in loot value is pretty extreme.

 

This is part of the reason why me and my sister hardly play anymore. Tier based looting in an open world game will always suck no matter how many times they try to "balance" it. It's just not as fun and interesting as it used to be.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Fox (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

They were pretty much upfront on the new loot system / loot stage.  If you stay in the safer biome (forest), your loot stage is going to go up slowly.  In order to push past that, you have to start taking risks and go outside the easy biome to harder biomes if you want to jump further up on the loot tables.

A20 Biome Loot Modifier and Bonus
Biome Modifier A.K.A lootstage_modifier percentage added to the loot stage calculations
Pine Forest 0
Burnt Forest 0.5
Desert 0.5
Snow 1
Wasteland 1.5

Biome Bonus A.K.A. lootstage_bonus whole number added to the loot stage calculations
Pine Forest 0
Burnt Forest 10
Desert 10
Snow 20
Wasteland 30

 

You have to make a choice.  You can stay in a safer biome, but realize that to advance further on the tech tree is either going to take time to get your loot stage up or find the recipes to unlock the higher tier gear to craft yourself, or push into one of the harder biomes to boost your loot stage up.

 

Everyone is going to have a different opinion on how the loot system should work for them.  The nice thing is if you don't like it, you can mod it so it is different.  Easiest thing to do is change the biome bonuses (specifically pine forest) if you want to speed things up.

[Darthjake]

Day 16 forest biome, lucky looter 3, stealth build using a found crossbow, I looted a Q1 pistol and a silencer in the military base.

 

RNG, you betcha, but I'm happy now as I mainly play stealth builds.

[Pernicious]

There does seem to be a bit of a big jump going from forest to snow/desert, but I figured that's a combination of biome jump, POI jump, and points/gear starting to stack.

 

If you're aware of it, it's not a huge issue. You can move biomes earlier, and take on easier quests in the harder biome, etc. Kinda self balancing. 

 

But agree, for first timers, it feels like nothing but stone tools and pipe weapons, and then all of a sudden it's like "what box do I put the M60 in?" "Same one as the other 43 we looted!"

[Riamus]

I think it really comes down to luck.  I've had tier 3 pistols by day 2 or 3, tier 3 steel spear on day 1, etc.  I've also been on tier 1 and 2 stone weapons and tools and pipe weapons for most of a week.  It varies game to game.

[Rotor]

Make yourself a greaser.  Should be easy enough.  Yes, RnGeezus may not be with ya.

[ElDudorino]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

You have to make a choice.  You can stay in a safer biome, but realize that to advance further on the tech tree is either going to take time to get your loot stage up or find the recipes to unlock the higher tier gear to craft yourself, or push into one of the harder biomes to boost your loot stage up.

 

The irony is that for anyone who knows the basics of the gameplay, the winter biome is EASIER than the pine forest.  The zombies aren't any tougher other than there being more lumberjacks which is no big deal, and visibility is WAY higher so at night you can see far away whereas in the pine forest everything dangerous is camouflaged.  The only increased risk comes from the hostile animals but they aren't particularly dangerous once you have a few hours of in-game knowledge, and mainly just mean you have more meat than you can find a use for.  And horde night plays out identically between the two biomes except that the zombies inexplicably have better horde night drops in the winter biome despite no difference in power level.

 

I don't really see how anyone can defend the incredible discrepancy between the winter and pine forest biomes in terms of loot.  It is a STARK difference between the two, to the point that playing in the pine forest is really just gimping yourself super hard.

 

In the case of the wasteland at least I can see why there's a sizable bump in loot stage, because the wasteland really is dangerous to a level 1 player even after you've reached a more intermediate skill level.  But even there I think the bump should be like half what it is.

 

But anyway, there are bigger balance issues than the insane loot tiers.  Like how focusing exclusively on missions can get you decked out with Q5-6 steel tools, melee, armor, top-tier bow/xbow, and mid-tier firearms by like 2 weeks into the game, PLUS 500 steel blocks to build a base with that you didn't even need a forge for, let alone a crucible... or a pickaxe.  But you do have those anyway of course, because your quest rewards made you rich.

Edited November 17, 2022 by ElDudorino (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

3 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

The irony is that for anyone who knows the basics of the gameplay, the winter biome is EASIER than the pine forest.

While I haven't tried it in A20, I tried an all winter biome playthrough in an earlier alpha (it was one of 17-19, before they changed the lumberjacks, but I can't recall exactly which) and it was awful.  Trying to kill lumberjacks and mountain lions with a wooden club (this was prior to pipe weapons as well) was very, very hard.  Lumberjacks do seem less tanky now, though, so I imagine that would make a difference.  They also don't seem as common in the winter biome as they used to (I swear it used to be 90% lumberjacks.)

[Roland]

12 hours ago, TheWayMan said:

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been playing recently again. Not knowing a lot I played until day 21 in the forest biome mostly only going out to towns to look for traders. 

All of my big cities are in the forest (all my T5poi's). Well I have been getting pipe shotguns and everything still. My game stae is almost 100(i think 96). The horde nights are extremely hard with a damn pipe shotgun and pipe pistol and T1 stuff. I got to thinking to myself, man this crap is not balanced something is wrong with my game. I start looking at YT vids and everything. Come to find out I spent 21 days in a useless biome completely wasted my time even looting in the forest. My loot at level 50 is 50, wtf lol. With game stage 100? Bro come on how is that balanced? I have been looting hard PoI's getting hack shiz nit. So I caved in, lets go to the snow biome. BRO level 50 in snow I get like 180 loot. Got a few points of lucky looter and some goggles we blasting I am now getting steel clubs completely past t2 equipts I am getting good stuff AK's level 6 etc. Where the crap did my mid game go? I am sorry but your main prority should be fixing this. I don't give a crap about how the game looks, if I cared about that I would have never even gotten the game, and most people agree with that statement because it is true. I should not be hindered so hard in anyway as to just playing the game.

 

Someone has to say it: Welcome to the forums!

 

There have been a lot of changes to loot for A21. Should be interesting to discuss whether TFP went too far, didn't go far enough, ignored the actual problem, made the game great again, etc.  Hope you will stick around until then!

[RipClaw]

9 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

They were pretty much upfront on the new loot system / loot stage.  If you stay in the safer biome (forest), your loot stage is going to go up slowly.  In order to push past that, you have to start taking risks and go outside the easy biome to harder biomes if you want to jump further up on the loot tables.

The way this works is funny. In my current game, I live directly next to the Wasteland. I built my Horde base on a piece of Wasteland that is right on the border. There are no zombie dogs or zombie bears there, just the occasional lone zombie wandering through the burnt forest. And yet my lootstage there is increased by 250%.
 

[zztong]

11 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

The irony is that for anyone who knows the basics of the gameplay, the winter biome is EASIER than the pine forest.

 

I think the Desert is the easiest. All the animals are weak. The ground is bright at night.

 

You won't one-shot a mountain lion (snow) or a bear (forest) with a beginner's bow while sneaking. As you say, in the snow biome you can avoid the mountain lions because you can see them. At night in the forest you might not see the bear or the wolf.

 

In the desert, you can one-shot everything AND see them, plus vultures bring you feathers and the rabbits/chickens kill themselves on cactus.

Edited November 17, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[Cr0wst0rm]

They should add something like in FarCry2, weapon jamming for weaker tier weapons and for better ones decrease such chance. Set equal chance for any weapon type, just set their qualities according to gamestage. Simple as that. But they seem too lazy to do something that involves changes in the game, instead keep milking the cow indefinitely. There are so many great ideas what could be done, however noone seems to be willing enough to start doing something about it. They rather keep "rebalancing" already existing systems which is changing values in xml that any 10 year old would be capable off....

Edited November 17, 2022 by Cr0wst0rm (see edit history)

[ElDudorino]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

 

I think the Desert is the easiest. All the animals are weak. The ground is bright at night.

 

I've always avoided the desert because I absolutely hate vultures, although I would certainly hate it less now that they don't have magical vehicle-chasing powers. Even then, it has a lower loot boost than snow.

 

9 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

While I haven't tried it in A20, I tried an all winter biome playthrough in an earlier alpha (it was one of 17-19, before they changed the lumberjacks, but I can't recall exactly which) and it was awful.  Trying to kill lumberjacks and mountain lions with a wooden club (this was prior to pipe weapons as well) was very, very hard.  Lumberjacks do seem less tanky now, though, so I imagine that would make a difference.  They also don't seem as common in the winter biome as they used to (I swear it used to be 90% lumberjacks.)

 

I have only played a16.4 and the a20 line and I do know that hostiles are *much* less tanky in a20 than in a16. The snow biome is still very lumberjacky but that just means a couple extra thwacks (on Warrior anyway, which is my preferred difficulty on Vanilla because I don't like bullet sponges). As for mountain lions... Yeah, don't attack them with a wooden club. Get on top of something and shoot them with your bow, or avoid them altogether. You can see them from far enough not to aggro them even in fog / blizzards so just don't go after them until you have the right weapons or you're really hungry.

[Kyonshi]

On 11/16/2022 at 12:15 PM, TheWayMan said:

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been playing recently again. Not knowing a lot I played until day 21 in the forest biome mostly only going out to towns to look for traders. 

All of my big cities are in the forest (all my T5poi's). Well I have been getting pipe shotguns and everything still. My game stae is almost 100(i think 96). The horde nights are extremely hard with a damn pipe shotgun and pipe pistol and T1 stuff. I got to thinking to myself, man this crap is not balanced something is wrong with my game. I start looking at YT vids and everything. Come to find out I spent 21 days in a useless biome completely wasted my time even looting in the forest. My loot at level 50 is 50, wtf lol. With game stage 100? Bro come on how is that balanced? I have been looting hard PoI's getting hack shiz nit. So I caved in, lets go to the snow biome. BRO level 50 in snow I get like 180 loot. Got a few points of lucky looter and some goggles we blasting I am now getting steel clubs completely past t2 equipts I am getting good stuff AK's level 6 etc. Where the crap did my mid game go? I am sorry but your main prority should be fixing this. I don't give a crap about how the game looks, if I cared about that I would have never even gotten the game, and most people agree with that statement because it is true. I should not be hindered so hard in anyway as to just playing the game.

The only thing that's wrong here is you, not the loot system.

 

At least, at some point you thought of doing something that you should have done before starting the game: inform yourself better. You went on YT to watch more experienced players, good. But you should have known beforehand that biomes have their own lootstage modifiers and the Forest one having no modifier at all. It's a starter area, you're not going to get crazy stuff there early on. The RNG isn't phenomeal and you may be victim of bad luck, that's all. With a LS of 50, I can frankly tell you I got higher tier than just a lvl 1 Pipe shotty over time in my playthroughs. Not only that, but all the stuff you looted since 3 weeks should have net you a lot of money to buy at least an AK or a double-barrel. This is on you, you should play smarter.

 

Now, the next step to do is to move away from the Forest biome into another, to get a higher lootstage. Snow biome is good, the Wasteland is better.

 

Is this loot system perfect? Not at all. But the issue you experienced here is mainly your fault. Now you know why 😉 Your experience will be much better.

[Fox]

12 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

The only thing that's wrong here is you, not the loot system.

If the loot system isn't the problem, then why are the devs continually changing it with every single update since the tier system started existing?

 

Don't blame the players for not playing an open world game in a linear way, blame the devs for not thinking before implementing flawed features that no one asked for.

[ElDudorino]

17 minutes ago, Fox said:

If the loot system isn't the problem, then why are the devs continually changing it with every single update since the tier system started existing?

 

Don't blame the players for not playing an open world game in a linear way, blame the devs for not thinking before implementing flawed features that no one asked for.

 

100%. And frankly I think it's ridiculous to blame players for actually playing a game instead of wading through the ocean of outdated or incorrect information trying to learn about which mechanics they need to exploit to have a logical flow to their gameplay experience before they even start.

[Kyonshi]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:08 PM, Fox said:

If the loot system isn't the problem, then why are the devs continually changing it with every single update since the tier system started existing?

 

Don't blame the players for not playing an open world game in a linear way, blame the devs for not thinking before implementing flawed features that no one asked for.

It's not because the devs add changes and modifications to the loot system that it's solely problematic... They are trying stuff: the game's in development. They play around with content before being in a content-locked phase. Also, it's not because you don't like something that it's plain wrong. You're just frustrated you didn't inform yourself properly before engaging the game. Like I said, you are the problem, like it or not. Don't put your flaws on their account.

 

Now for the second part of your reply, you start sounding like so many clowns blaming the Pimps for everything they don't like in the game. Your feelings aren't gospel here. It's not a matter of asking for a certain loot system or not: they are DEVELOPING their game, they have ideas they wanna implement they will do so if they feel like it. They do think about what they wanna put in, you're certainly not in a valuable position to lecture them about what's wrong or not, or if they think about stuff or not.

 

There's no linear way to progress in this game, where everything is destructible and where millions of possible interactions can happen. Try to design and program something of that magnitude and come tell me that it's "linear". Of course, they establish certain parameters as rules, so the game goes in the direction they want. In that sense, they don't conduct the production from what people ask. They put up this universe of 7DTD, and if you have some concerns, you can either constructively suggest something on the forums or put the game down and take the door if you're not happy about it.

 

The developers aren't to blame for their decisions, you're the one to blame for your mistakes. Not only should you assume your own @%$#-ups but also you being close-minded about it.

On 11/17/2022 at 2:28 PM, ElDudorino said:

 

100%. And frankly I think it's ridiculous to blame players for actually playing a game instead of wading through the ocean of outdated or incorrect information trying to learn about which mechanics they need to exploit to have a logical flow to their gameplay experience before they even start.

Yes, people are to blame for not informing themselves about the game features. Yes.

 

They openly and actively participate in the discussions right here. They aired many livestreams last year, before A20 was released. Everybody knew that biomes would have their own lootstage values. It's not outdated information nor incorrect: lootstages are exactly as they said it would be. One can always ask about certain mechanics here and they'll have an answer sooner than later.

 

So stop with your bull@%$#. If you wanna go blind in the game, do so! But dont blame the devs for stuff that screwed up your progress. It's common sense to inform yourself before undertaking anything new in life, it's goes beyond video games. If you don't have common sense, it's your problem, not the devs.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[theFlu]

23 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

You're just frustrated you didn't inform yourself properly before engaging the game.

That REEEE of yours would be towards an "Original Survivor" .. might wanna read on what that means and how it might change the amount of available info when he joined... since you like reading so much. Also, one may dislike a feature whether they knew about it beforehand or not, that counter doesn't even make sense outside the context of "hi, this was my first game"...

Edited November 21, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Kyonshi]

22 minutes ago, theFlu said:

That REEEE of yours would be towards an "Original Survivor" .. might wanna read on what that means and how it might change the amount of available info when he joined... since you like reading so much. Also, one may dislike a feature whether they knew about it beforehand or not, that counter doesn't even make sense outside the context of "hi, this was my first game"...

A "reeeee" 😆

 

One can dislike a feature, nothing wrong here. But one who blames the presence of a feature they don't like on the devs and that they don't think about better it before putting it in the game, there's a difference. And that's exactly what he's implying. Speaking of reading, you should follow your own advice here 😉

 

But I'm reeeee-ing... Sure buddy lol

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

Speaking of reading, you should follow your own advice here 😉

Nah, you lost me at:

On 11/17/2022 at 8:51 PM, Kyonshi said:

The only thing that's wrong here is you

But carry on, you have the absolute freedom to ree

[Kyonshi]

20 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Nah, you lost me at:

But carry on, you have the absolute freedom to ree

So you have no problem that one's voluntary ignorance can be blamed on the devs not thinking about the features they put in the game. Got it.

 

And you don't read. I prefer to be someone who apparently "rees" than to be that dense. As you said, carry on 😉

Edited November 21, 2022 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[ElDudorino]

Kyonshi, most people do not feel that basic game mechanics should be so illogical and inscrutable that you need to go hunting for information to find out about them - especially in the case of a game with an infamously bad wiki and conflicting information all over the net. If you think otherwise, well, feel free to keep being wrong. You'll just lash out and insult everybody to prove your point anyway so there's no real benefit in listening to you.

[katarynna]

18 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

Kyonshi, most people do not feel that basic game mechanics should be so illogical and inscrutable that you need to go hunting for information to find out about them - especially in the case of a game with an infamously bad wiki and conflicting information all over the net. If you think otherwise, well, feel free to keep being wrong. You'll just lash out and insult everybody to prove your point anyway so there's no real benefit in listening to you.

 

Finding better loot in harder areas is not illogical though.

 

It is a staple in many games.

[ElDudorino]

40 minutes ago, katarynna said:

 

Finding better loot in harder areas is not illogical though.

 

It is a staple in many games.

 

Except there's no indication of what constitutes a "harder" area according to the game, because it certainly isn't based on actual difficulty. Why is the desert better loot than the forest but worse than the snow? Why is a T5 in the forest worse loot than like a shack in the snow? The system is completely untuned to the point that it doesn't make sense.

 

Pine forest, snow, and desert should be close to the same loot logically while T5 should be a huge loot boost. Wasteland being a big boost makes sense but not as huge as it is in the game. It's completely out of proportion to actual difficulty.

Edited November 21, 2022 by ElDudorino (see edit history)