Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Uncle Al]

47 minutes ago, Kalex said:

Will what biome you place them in have any affect on the rate at which dew collectors gain water? Realistically you should get more water in the forest than in the desert.

I can't point you at an actual quote, but I'm fairly certain it's been stated that collectors aren't affected by which biome they're in.

 

They're also not affected by weather.

[Cr0wst0rm]

3 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

I can't point you at an actual quote, but I'm fairly certain it's been stated that collectors aren't affected by which biome they're in.

 

They're also not affected by weather.

The model has been in the game files since alpha 20. And they cant even add the most basic stuff that makes most of the sense for it to exist. Can't wait to collect water indoors of my safehouse....  🤦‍♂️

[RipClaw]

5 minutes ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Can't wait to collect water indoors of my safehouse....  🤦‍♂️

That won't work unless you place the dew collectors on the roof. From what I have read, an unobstructed view of the sky is necessary.

[Doomofman]

I asked before but maybe it got lost in the usual drama of this thread.

 

With A21 cycle seemingly going longer than expected, are bandits potentially back on the table for A21?

[Cr0wst0rm]

24 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

I asked before but maybe it got lost in the usual drama of this thread.

 

With A21 cycle seemingly going longer than expected, are bandits potentially back on the table for A21?

On the first page there is stated that it might come in alpha 22 release.... Hopefully

[Laran Mithras]

1 hour ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

But ye hopefully they will add biome and weather reactions, because it would not make any sense right now to add this with gradually increasing water levels without any external effects.

I remember them stressing it was a dew collector, not a rain collector. With that, the current design structure as mentioned makes sense. 

[Cr0wst0rm]

49 minutes ago, Laran Mithras said:

I remember them stressing it was a dew collector, not a rain collector. With that, the current design structure as mentioned makes sense. 

That would make also fog a great candidate. You can see that rain would make sense too, since it is shaped in a way that would allow for that. I mean for hardcore experience they could make it just as slow as possible and not take all other effects in account but honestly i dont feel much sense from it....

[Zipcore]

19 hours ago, Riamus said:

Even if you had to replace tools and weapons after a period of time, they would have to severely nerf loot for it to matter in late game. By then, I have always found so many tier 5 and 6 weapons and tools that if I knew I'd have to replace them, I would just hold onto them and it wouldn't really impact me at all.

 

Besides, for late game, they need to first add something to keep people playing rather than starting a new game before worrying too much about whether or not you have to replace things in late game.  As it is now, by late game you have already done everything you want in the game... Learned everything you want to learn, perked into everything you want to perk into, built whatever bases you want.  By then, there isn't much to do other than keep doing the same limited number of tier 5 quests or finding stuff to build or whatever.  Long before you level up enough to get all the perks, you have already gotten all you care about and after that, there isn't much to do.  Adding decaying weapons and tools that can't be repaired anymore isn't going to improve the late game until there is an actual late game to do.  Even then, the impact will be minimal without removing a ton of loot, which would likely reduce the number of players significantly, which is a bad thing.

 

If they were to add a true exploration system to the game or story progression that continues far enough into late game or something like that, it would help considerably.  As it is, I doubt most people really explore the map because there isn't any real incentive to do so.  I'll go find all the traders and even complete tier 5 with all unique traders, but that is just for something to do, not because there is any real value in doing it.  It isn't like other games where if you explore, you'll find stuff you would have a hard time finding otherwise, if at all.  Here, you can stay in one city and find everything (not every POI, but every loot item).  They have the find-a-trader quests to try to get people to explore, but nothing happens after you do them to keep you there.  Even wonders POI are pretty much not worth looking at other than as a POI you have done yet because anything you get from them can be found anywhere else, so why bother trying to go to the different ones?  There just isn't much reason to keep playing a given game past a certain point right now.  A new game offers a better experience overall as you once again have something that you need to do.

 

It would ...

- encourage players to explore more and find new resources, as they would need to constantly search for materials to repair their equipment. Make use of custom prefabs or even custom maps, special zones using mods can help a lot to make it fun to explore.

- make resource management more important, as players would have to carefully consider how they use their repair kits and other resources.
- encourage players to trade more with other players, to get tools, weapons they had no luck to find (level 6) or crafted with really good random stats.
- add a sense of realism to the game, as in real life, equipment wears down and needs to be replaced eventually.
- add a level of strategy to the game, as players would have to carefully plan and manage their use of equipment in order to make sure it lasts as long as possible.
- add a sense of progression to the game, as players would have to constantly upgrade their equipment as it wears down.
- encourage players to craft more, as they would need to constantly make new equipment to replace the old.
- make the game more challenging and rewarding, as players would have to constantly adapt to their equipment breaking and finding new ways to overcome obstacles without it.

- allow to balance highend tools/weapons, like finding legendary items which are worn out faster so they can be repaired very limited but maybe have high durability

 

But you are totally right when you play pure vanilla with some friends with meight not be the issue solver and other things would have to be done first. But there are plenty of servers using server-side only mods which could profit a lot by this simple addition which could be 100% optional but gives modders a very handy way of balancing.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Zipcore (see edit history)

[Doomofman]

1 hour ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

On the first page there is stated that it might come in alpha 22 release.... Hopefully

 

I think that was based on them aiming for A21 to be out in 2022. I'm hoping maybe that A21 is now seemingly still a couple of months away that it'll allow them to get bandits in for A21 instead of A22

[Zipcore]

2 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

 

I think that was based on them aiming for A21 to be out in 2022. I'm hoping maybe that A21 is now seemingly still a couple of months away that it'll allow them to get bandits in for A21 instead of A22

 

I just want that they add it at some point. Such things need to be smoothed out so they are not just a half baked thing which disappoints the players. And it's a lot of work to get this type of thing done right. they have their reasons to delay this feature for soooo long.

[Lady Sakuyama]

So will rain affect how much it fills up? We should be able to collect rain water in cooking pots or something too. In my opinion of course

[Gronal]

1 hour ago, Doomofman said:

 

I think that was based on them aiming for A21 to be out in 2022. I'm hoping maybe that A21 is now seemingly still a couple of months away that it'll allow them to get bandits in for A21 instead of A22

that's very hopeful of you. It's been stated that bandits will not be in a21.

[RipClaw]

35 minutes ago, Lady Sakuyama said:

So will rain affect how much it fills up?

No. Rain has no effect on the dew collector. The rate at which water is collected is independent of weather, biome, or day length setting.

 

[crazywildfire]

1 hour ago, Doomofman said:

 

I think that was based on them aiming for A21 to be out in 2022. I'm hoping maybe that A21 is now seemingly still a couple of months away that it'll allow them to get bandits in for A21 instead of A22

 

If they already did content lock then it doesn't matter. The things they already locked in is what they are still working out to be ready for A21 not to scrap it and delay it even longer to add more just because they didn't make it before they holidays.

 

Also I feel it was more of the players that was expecting it before the holidays with the developers in hope they can be ready. As far as I seen no developer said it would be out before the holidays. So as far as they are aware everything is still on schedule. Just doesn't seem like that for us on the outside. 

[Doomofman]

10 minutes ago, crazywildfire said:

 

If they already did content lock then it doesn't matter. The things they already locked in is what they are still working out to be ready for A21 not to scrap it and delay it even longer to add more just because they didn't make it before they holidays.

 

Also I feel it was more of the players that was expecting it before the holidays with the developers in hope they can be ready. As far as I seen no developer said it would be out before the holidays. So as far as they are aware everything is still on schedule. Just doesn't seem like that for us on the outside. 

 

Pretty sure one of them said at one stage they were aiming for it to be out for the Steam Winter sale, that's the timeframe I'm working from

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Zipcore said:

I just want that they add it at some point. Such things need to be smoothed out so they are not just a half baked thing which disappoints the players. And it's a lot of work to get this type of thing done right. they have their reasons to delay this feature for soooo long.

The real problem for devising a good Bandit AI is the environment the bandits will be moving in.

Most games have static maps, with static path-finding, where devs can even hand-tailor scripted behaviors for the AI.

 

In 7D2D you have an environment that can change at any time, with 1.2K variations of blocks that could, or could not, be passable, and that could or could not be considered cover depending on the rotation vs. where the player is. And that's just the beginning of the issues you have to overcome.

 

It's in these times that I'm grateful I'm not a programmer and that this @%$# is handled by someone else (hopefully someone up to the challenge).

[crazywildfire]

2 hours ago, Doomofman said:

 

Pretty sure one of them said at one stage they were aiming for it to be out for the Steam Winter sale, that's the timeframe I'm working from

 

I don't recall. I do recall them saying it in a way they would like to but it wasn't like it was yes for certainty or anything.  Not saying in your case just speaking in general here but this is why they say when it is done because they even mention a possibility of something then it gets turned out of context from others that "but they said this". 

Edited January 5, 2023 by crazywildfire (see edit history)

[Grue]

Quite frankly, they need to stop @%$#ing with core mechanics and focus on actual content.

A21 is shaping up to be another steaming pile of @%$# like A17 was.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Grue (see edit history)

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, Zipcore said:

It would ...

- encourage players to explore more and find new resources, as they would need to constantly search for materials to repair their equipment. Make use of custom prefabs or even custom maps, special zones using mods can help a lot to make it fun to explore.

- make resource management more important, as players would have to carefully consider how they use their repair kits and other resources.
- encourage players to trade more with other players, to get tools, weapons they had no luck to find (level 6) or crafted with really good random stats.
- add a sense of realism to the game, as in real life, equipment wears down and needs to be replaced eventually.
- add a level of strategy to the game, as players would have to carefully plan and manage their use of equipment in order to make sure it lasts as long as possible.
- add a sense of progression to the game, as players would have to constantly upgrade their equipment as it wears down.
- encourage players to craft more, as they would need to constantly make new equipment to replace the old.
- make the game more challenging and rewarding, as players would have to constantly adapt to their equipment breaking and finding new ways to overcome obstacles without it.

- allow to balance highend tools/weapons, like finding legendary items which are worn out faster so they can be repaired very limited but maybe have high durability

Just to comment on these points...

- As I mentioned, you can get everything you want from a single city. There is no need to explore to find parts even with your suggestion.  Perhaps if you are playing with more players than the game is meant for (more than 5), resources may be more rare, but they are designing it for up to 5 players.  I don't think they will put a lot of effort into adding things just so games with more players than intended will work better. That is what mods are for.  I doubt they are also going to put in effort to get people looking for custom prefabs and maps.  They put in effort so people enjoy vanilla.

- It doesn't really make resource management important as resources are very easy to come by in late game, which is where you are saying this will help.  If they added your suggestion, they'd also make parts easier to find.

- I believe, though I don't know for sure, that most games with the intended size of up to 5 players, with the exception of pvp, will have players trading (or selling to each other) already as needed.

- This is a zombie game, so realism isn't critical and gameplay will trump realism.

- As I mentioned, it is easy to find high tier equipment and by the time you are late game, you can easily stockpile stuff if you know you will wear it out.  The actual impact will be minor if you don't just sell everything.

- Replacing worn out equipment isn't progression.  Replacing equipment with better equipment is progression, but your suggestion doesn't do that.

- This could be true, but until they let you craft tier 6, players will still be using looted items in late game even with your suggestion.  Even then, you are likely to find tier 6 often enough that crafting to replace worn out equipment isn't likely to be necessary.

- I don't see this as in any way making the game more rewarding as it doesn't give you anything and just means more effort (potentially) is needed.  As far as more challenging, it again just means more effort/time spent getting loot rather than adding any additional challenge.  If you wanted, you could get everything just by looting tier 1 POI, so no actual challenge added.  Yes, you would need to plan to have good equipment rather than something you can no longer repair, but that is hardly a challenge or even strategy.

- They apparently have plans for legendary items, but until we see how they want those implemented, there is no guarantee that your suggestion would affect them much.  They may already plan to have legendary items degrade and not be repairable.

 

Now, I am not really opposed to degrading repair ability through use on an item, though I also don't really see need for it in this type of game.  But the reasons given don't really fit with the suggestion.  Some seem to be to improve games with more people than intended, but they are going to put effort into intended game sizes rather than oversized games.  Others seem to assume it will add difficulty or challenge, when they late game is already extremely easy and that ease of getting resources would just make the suggestion also be very easy to overcome.  The suggestion isn't bad per se, but I think there are far better things they can spend their time on, such as story progression, exploration mechanics and value, late game content, etc.

 

Besides, this seems like something better suited to mods and overhaul mods.

[mstdv inc]

5 hours ago, Zipcore said:

 

It would ...

1 encourage players to explore more and find new resources, as they would need to constantly search for materials to repair their equipment. Make use of custom prefabs or even custom maps, special zones using mods can help a lot to make it fun to explore.

2 make resource management more important, as players would have to carefully consider how they use their repair kits and other resources.
3 encourage players to trade more with other players, to get tools, weapons they had no luck to find (level 6) or crafted with really good random stats.
4 add a sense of realism to the game, as in real life, equipment wears down and needs to be replaced eventually.
5 add a level of strategy to the game, as players would have to carefully plan and manage their use of equipment in order to make sure it lasts as long as possible.
6 add a sense of progression to the game, as players would have to constantly upgrade their equipment as it wears down.
7 encourage players to craft more, as they would need to constantly make new equipment to replace the old.
8 make the game more challenging and rewarding, as players would have to constantly adapt to their equipment breaking and finding new ways to overcome obstacles without it.

9 allow to balance highend tools/weapons, like finding legendary items which are worn out faster so they can be repaired very limited but maybe have high durability

 

But you are totally right when you play pure vanilla with some friends with meight not be the issue solver and other things would have to be done first. But there are plenty of servers using server-side only mods which could profit a lot by this simple addition which could be 100% optional but gives modders a very handy way of balancing.

 

You also need to put some work into a map which gives more reason to explore, but that can be done already, let me give you an example:

 

 

 

1. Additional grind for the sake of grind
2. Reduced replayability.Just lower the settings in the game.
3. Not everyone plays PVP
4. Realistic in a zombie game.Good.For realism, you can go out of the house.
5. See point 2
6. See point 1
7. See point 2
8. See point 2
9. It's interesting
None of this is suitable for vanilla because it should remain neutral, it should be for most.

[unholyjoe]

4 hours ago, Lady Sakuyama said:

So will rain affect how much it fills up? We should be able to collect rain water in cooking pots or something too. In my opinion of course

no. they kept it simple.

 

doesnt matter if rainy, foggy,  windy or snowy as it doesnt change one drop of water.

 

day nor night does not change anything.

 

biomes DO NOT make any differences either.

 

only thing that changes its behavior is CODE and maybe a little xml (i wont swear about xml as i did not check it).

 

oh i did forget one thing.... it can be damaged/destroyed and when that happens... you dont get no water.

Edited January 5, 2023 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Zipcore]

5 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Just to comment on these points...

- As I mentioned, you can get everything you want from a single city. There is no need to explore to find parts even with your suggestion.  Perhaps if you are playing with more players than the game is meant for (more than 5), resources may be more rare, but they are designing it for up to 5 players.  I don't think they will put a lot of effort into adding things just so games with more players than intended will work better. That is what mods are for.  I doubt they are also going to put in effort to get people looking for custom prefabs and maps.  They put in effort so people enjoy vanilla.

- It doesn't really make resource management important as resources are very easy to come by in late game, which is where you are saying this will help.  If they added your suggestion, they'd also make parts easier to find.

- I believe, though I don't know for sure, that most games with the intended size of up to 5 players, with the exception of pvp, will have players trading (or selling to each other) already as needed.

- This is a zombie game, so realism isn't critical and gameplay will trump realism.

- As I mentioned, it is easy to find high tier equipment and by the time you are late game, you can easily stockpile stuff if you know you will wear it out.  The actual impact will be minor if you don't just sell everything.

- Replacing worn out equipment isn't progression.  Replacing equipment with better equipment is progression, but your suggestion doesn't do that.

- This could be true, but until they let you craft tier 6, players will still be using looted items in late game even with your suggestion.  Even then, you are likely to find tier 6 often enough that crafting to replace worn out equipment isn't likely to be necessary.

- I don't see this as in any way making the game more rewarding as it doesn't give you anything and just means more effort (potentially) is needed.  As far as more challenging, it again just means more effort/time spent getting loot rather than adding any additional challenge.  If you wanted, you could get everything just by looting tier 1 POI, so no actual challenge added.  Yes, you would need to plan to have good equipment rather than something you can no longer repair, but that is hardly a challenge or even strategy.

- They apparently have plans for legendary items, but until we see how they want those implemented, there is no guarantee that your suggestion would affect them much.  They may already plan to have legendary items degrade and not be repairable.

 

Now, I am not really opposed to degrading repair ability through use on an item, though I also don't really see need for it in this type of game.  But the reasons given don't really fit with the suggestion.  Some seem to be to improve games with more people than intended, but they are going to put effort into intended game sizes rather than oversized games.  Others seem to assume it will add difficulty or challenge, when they late game is already extremely easy and that ease of getting resources would just make the suggestion also be very easy to overcome.  The suggestion isn't bad per se, but I think there are far better things they can spend their time on, such as story progression, exploration mechanics and value, late game content, etc.

 

Besides, this seems like something better suited to mods and overhaul mods.

 

- I was never talking about huge efforts. And yes mods are there for changing such things, but currently there is nothing in the game which allows us to change this using xml mods.

- Easy to get resources is just a manner of your serversettings, if you set the loot respawn time low and don't have high loot abanuance (which does not affect the harvest rates)

- True realism is not really needed

- TFP state already that they like to support more players in future (when doesn't really matter just that they want to)

- Progression meight not be the best word to describe that, but it's more like a cycle which gives more reasoning to looting/crafting/trading

- That is up to the server owner if they like to let players craft level 6 items or not.

- It makes it more rewarding when you find another good weapon which maybe has 0.1 less on some stats which would be trash without this.

- Which is why I'm suggesting them this? The solution is simple to implement, solves the issue, still allows no repair and is purely option and gives modders much more freedom, whats wrong with that? 

- I don't see how this is an argument here. I'm fully aware of no guarantee given for anything ebside the things listed in the main post of this thread, which is totally fine.

 

They had a similar system once in the game which was complex and made items loose quality on repair. I totally understand why they got rid of this system, but they didn't replace it, they just removed it. Just because you don't want this feature doesn't mean that it's bad or not worth the effort (which is really not much since I could code that myself into the game as a client side mod and know what it takes), having this as a xml only version so it can be used as a server-side mod would be much better. Not everyone likes to play this game with high loot, looting the same cities over and over again when the map has more to offer and don't want to stop the game when they have good equipment which can be barel improved which makes looting less rewarding since you only do that for raw resources and then wipe the server or wait for the next alpha because you had a fast playthru in a game which doesn't need an real final ending like minecraft for example.

[maxousara]

51 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

no. they kept it simple.

 

doesnt matter if rainy, foggy,  windy or snowy as it doesnt change one drop of water.

 

day nor night does not change anything.

 

biomes DO NOT make any differences either.

 

only thing that changes its behavior is CODE and maybe a little xml (i wont swear about xml as i did not check it).

 

oh i did forget one thing.... it can be damaged/destroyed and when that happens... you dont get no water.

Thanks for all this full description about it. In 2 days maximum somebody Will ask a question about it anyway because too many times people can't read and repost the same question the question you have answers here was posted 100 times before and its not over

54 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

no. they kept it simple.

 

doesnt matter if rainy, foggy,  windy or snowy as it doesnt change one drop of water.

 

day nor night does not change anything.

 

biomes DO NOT make any differences either.

 

only thing that changes its behavior is CODE and maybe a little xml (i wont swear about xml as i did not check it).

 

oh i did forget one thing.... it can be damaged/destroyed and when that happens... you dont get no water.

Oh i have a question collect what if we destroy it, Wood, iron, nothing WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION 🤣🤣🤣

[Riamus]

6 hours ago, Zipcore said:

Not everyone likes to play this game with high loot, looting the same cities over and over again when the map has more to offer and don't want to stop the game when they have good equipment which can be barel improved which makes looting less rewarding since you only do that for raw resources and then wipe the server or wait for the next alpha because you had a fast playthru in a game which doesn't need an real final ending like minecraft for example.

That is exactly the point I was making.  Your suggestion does not get people exploring or increase the chance people will continue to play in late game.  All cities are essentially the same. Yes, the POI and placement were different, but you can loot the exact same things anywhere.  There is no incentive to travel unless you have too many players all looting the same location, and in the current iteration of the game, it is designed for a maximum of 5 (edit... 8 ) players and if you are within that range, you shouldn't run out of places to loot, especially with quests resetting loot in those POI.  Even at very low loot percentages, this is true unless you are in one of the smallest towns instead of being near a larger city.  Other than different views, the map unfortunately doesn't have anything to offer.

 

As far as equipment, having to use a lesser piece of equipment because you can't repair your better equipment anymore is hardly something to be excited over, nor does it extend late game as many players will be less enthused about continuing with worse equipment than continuing with the same equipment.  A pitfall in a game that has looting being a fairly significant part is to not have new and better loot available for long enough into the game.  Making people change equipment for less or even equal equipment just for item degradation doesn't solve that.  People will want to upgrade, not just replace.

 

TFP already knows that item progression (or lack thereof) is a problem.  This is why in A21, they are slowing down item progression so that players are upgrading (not just replacing) their equipment for a longer period of time.  This will hopefully increase crafting and make late game last longer for people, though that is yet to be seen.  In either case, what they are doing has a far better chance of improving item progression than your suggestion, though I am not sure I necessarily agree with their implementation, but I'll reserve judgment for after I try it.

 

And as I said earlier, I am not opposed to your suggestion.  However, I do feel other things are far more important to extending late game than that, such as those I mentioned.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

As far as equipment, having to use a lesser piece of equipment because you can't repair your better equipment anymore is hardly something to be excited over, nor does it extend late game as many players will be less enthused about continuing with worse equipment than continuing with the same equipment.  A pitfall in a game that has looting being a fairly significant part is to not have new and better loot available for long enough into the game.  Making people change equipment for less or even equal equipment just for item degradation doesn't solve that.  People will want to upgrade, not just replace.

 

Some people might think differently, or at least this player does  🙂

 

I have modded my game so you can't repair equipment.  I have found iron or steel tools in loot (before I have the resources to craft new ones) and I will use them until I break them, then go down a tier.

 

In my playthroughs, I have had instances where I was using a Q5 steel pickaxe to mine until it broke, then crafted a Q4 iron pickaxe as a replacement until I found another steel one or was able to start crafting my own steel tools.

 

But that type of playing requires a specific mindset (where the goal of the game is just to survive with what you got) rather than looting to find the best gear and using it from that point on.