Listen up Fun Pimps!

[Viktoriusiii]

3 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

It does still puzzle me how some people (not singling you out), when they say "content," don't count things like weapons and vehicles, and anything other than story & NPC stuff isn't content to them.  Maybe this has to do with coming from different game backgrounds?  A20 has new quests, new weapons, new zombies, new loot containers, a ton of new block shapes, vehicle mods, and new RWG infrastructure like highways, traffic lights, sewers, etc.  "Yeah, but we're still waiting for the content."  That all seems like content to me!

Adding more loot is not "content".
We need stuff to do. Goals to achive.

This is not minecraft where it is all about building.

It CAN be. But then its not a survival game.

"Content" I mean:

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

We don'T need more weapons or even different vehicles (although new skins would be a nice little addition)

We need content. A story. Bandits that have been in talks since A12 I believe.
I just want my NPCs and a story. And coming with that a late game. (building an NPC defended Fort and stuff like that)
Everything else are minor addition and balancing issues.

 

[Laz Man]

18 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

NPCs are interactable, have/add to the story and fill the world with life.
Now they are just a blackboard of quests. A poi with a moving blackboard. Can't kill or interact with it besides that.
That is not an NPC. I am sorry.

 

The definition of NPCs is very subjective.  For me NPCs are non playable characters that add life and character to the game worlds they exist in.

 

Could they do more?  Sure, but that doesn't take away from what they are imo.  Rekt and Jen are probably this games best NPCs.  Rekt triggers hatred in most players while Jen "triggers" people's inner Snowdog....😁

[Ornias]

If anyone played the original DayZ mod for Arma 2 they may remember the random military/bandit camps. 10-20 well armed men around a central tent. Best loot in the game if you could take them out. These would pop up randomly and last for several days or until they were killed. 

[Viktoriusiii]

12 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

The definition of NPCs is very subjective.  For me NPCs are non playable characters that add life and character to the game worlds they exist in.

 

Could they do more?  Sure, but that doesn't take away from what they are imo.  Rekt and Jen are probably this games best NPCs.  Rekt triggers hatred in most players while Jen "triggers" people's inner Snowdog....😁

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-player_character

 

They do not have dialogue. They do not move. They do not enhance the world, because they do not live in it. They have no character except a few witty, always repeating lines. Oh and also boobies :3
I am sorry, but even if they are very much three dimensional, they are still as flat as a blackboard :'D

[Matt115]

37 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

NPCs are interactable, have/add to the story and fill the world with life.
Now they are just a blackboard of quests. A poi with a moving blackboard. Can't kill or interact with it besides that.
That is not an NPC. I am sorry.

They are npc- npc works in that's way in for example in mmo. You can trade and ask for quest. Bandits could be npc too -if they can be looted. in old games it was normal that npc just sit somewher and talk/trade/give quest only

2 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

You clearly play a lot of games and have strong opinions about what is or is not sufficient "change" in 7D2D. But none of that rebuts the point that every change to 7D2D over the years has been towards the 1.0 release. We're all just along for the ride. We can offer - and I'm sure TFP appreciates at least in some cases - our opinions on which changes work and which don't, but there really isn't much basis for a "you aren't changing enough!" argument. These are not DLC packs, these are evolutions towards the very first release of 7D2D. There are, hopefully, a couple/few million potential customers out there who've never bought nor played 7D2D. They are the target for all of this, not us. We are the hecklers sitting in the auditorium taunting TFP before the real show has even started. Wow there sure are a lot of us.

 

 

Minor point: Demos will appear in downtown areas. More likely in Wasteland downtown than others.

well that's something new

 

[Viktoriusiii]

4 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

They are npc- npc works in that's way in for example in mmo. You can trade and ask for quest. Bandits could be npc too -if they can be looted. in old games it was normal that npc just sit somewher and talk/trade/give quest only

well that's something new

Even in an MMO, the one with the least interactable NPCs, they give you a story. They explain the world and what is happening. Quests might be "go here and collect 'x' " but there is a whole story about a sick pig that needs the medicine, but she is too old and her niece is currently on a trip to the next city. And later you meet that niece and she gives you a reward for helping her aunt.

Here it is literally just a blackboard "clear POI 'a'" here is your reward.
"Clear POI 'b'" here is your reward.
"Clear POI 'a' again" ...
 

[Laz Man]

5 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Even in an MMO, the one with the least interactable NPCs, they give you a story. They explain the world and what is happening. Quests might be "go here and collect 'x' " but there is a whole story about a sick pig that needs the medicine, but she is too old and her niece is currently on a trip to the next city. And later you meet that niece and she gives you a reward for helping her aunt.

Here it is literally just a blackboard "clear POI 'a'" here is your reward.
"Clear POI 'b'" here is your reward.
"Clear POI 'a' again" ...
 

You ever play ultima?

 

 

 

[Roland]

16 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-player_character

 

They do not have dialogue. They do not move. They do not enhance the world, because they do not live in it. They have no character except a few witty, always repeating lines. Oh and also boobies :3
I am sorry, but even if they are very much three dimensional, they are still as flat as a blackboard :'D

 

I would love for more interactive NPCs and I would be just as disappointed as you if TFP points at the traders and says, "NPCS: Check"

 

However.... you opened the door with your link and this is quoting from the top definition from your link:

 

Quote

A non-player character (NPC) is any character in a game that is not controlled by a player.[1] The term originated in traditional tabletop role-playing games where it applies to characters controlled by the gamemaster or referee rather than by another player. In video games, this usually means a character controlled by the computer (instead of the player) that has a predetermined set of behaviors that potentially will impact gameplay, but will not necessarily be the product of true artificial intelligence.

 

Traders:

 

Characters: Check

Not controlled by players: Check

Controlled by the computer: Check

Predetermined set of behaviors: Check

Use impacts gameplay: Check

Not the product of true AI: Check

 

Let's just hope the devs don't find your link, Vik, because if they do then they probably will go "NPCS: check!"

 

[Laz Man]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I would love for more interactive NPCs and I would be just as disappointed as you if TFP points at the traders and says, "NPCS: Check"

 

However.... you opened the door with your link and this is quoting from the top definition from your link:

 

 

Traders:

 

Characters: Check

Not controlled by players: Check

Controlled by the computer: Check

Predetermined set of behaviors: Check

Use impacts gameplay: Check

Not the product of true AI: Check

 

Let's just hope the devs don't find your link, Vik, because if they do then they probably will go "NPCS: check!"

 

 

Would be great if the traders at least wandered around their POIs.

 

If I ever get the chance, I would love to make a trader POI of any of the existing traders.  That way it might be more believable when you bump into another Jen but in a different POI....😄

Edited January 13, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Laz Man said:

 

Would be great if the traders at least wandered around their POIs.

 

If I ever get the chance, I would love to make a trader POI of any of the existing traders.  That way it might be more believable when you but into another Jen but in a different POI....😄

 

Hey Laz! Why are you peeking through the window of that POI over there?!?!

[DiegoLBC1]

4 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

That way it might be more believable when you bump into another Jen but in a different POI....

I like this. 😍  🤣

[Viktoriusiii]

8 minutes ago, Roland said:

Traders:

 

Characters: Check

Not controlled by players: Check

Controlled by the computer: Check

Predetermined set of behaviors: Check

Use impacts gameplay: Check

Not the product of true AI: Check

Define "character".
They do not have stats and do not interact with the world.
Just because they are in human form and repeat the same 3-5 voicelines does not make them a "character".
They do not have behaviour. None that a blackboard couldn't do
Use implements gameplay... debatable... but fine but I could have done that poi without it as well

9 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Would be great if the traders at least wandered around their POIs.

 

If I ever get the chance, I would love to make a trader POI of any of the existing traders.  That way it might be more believable when you bump into another Jen but in a different POI....😄

Quest idea:
"make POI 'x' livable"
5 different trader pois (one for each queststage all in the same city)
clear it and the trader will move the next morning.

Should be easy to script as well.

You now just need 5 stages of traderpoi.
Then you could even add patroling guards and stuff.

All they need to do is shoot zombies and move from predetermined poin A to B.

BOOM already much more worlddevelopment than the last 5 alphas (15 was dishong tower with the behemoth sized hole right?) combined

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Define "character".
They do not have stats and do not interact with the world.

 

They interact with you and since you are the center of that universe that is by far the strongest interaction an NPC can have.

 

Many NPCs in games didn't have stats. Because they were elemental to the story they were made immortal and unchangeable. Many quest givers and traders in computer-RPGs. In old RPGs you often had NPCs like that ultima lady that Lazman showed. Or NPCs with exactly one line that just wandered around in exactly one location and doing nothing else. Or NPCs that simply had a short menue of stuff to buy and sell.

 

2 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 

 

Just because they are in human form and repeat the same 3-5 voicelines does not make them a "character".
They do not have behaviour. None that a blackboard couldn't do
Use implements gameplay... debatable... but fine but I could have done that poi without it as well

 

 

 

Ever played FTL? All the stories in there are told in a few sentences, after having played the game a few dozen times you know that every encounter is the same static text just randomized. Every NPC you meet has the same lines and after some random roll one of a handful different replies.

And still the game creates a story. And you don't want to leave the poor slave in the hands of the pirates even though you KNOW it is just a random event with always the same short text and the poor slave is just a few pixels on the screen.

 

There is not much text necessary to tell a story.

 

You don't read the quest descriptions anymore in 7D2D, sure, they don't contain anything useful. But just by adding a few special quests with relevant text you can give the traders a backstory, involve them in the story and advance the story. I don't know if TFP will do it that way, but a possible tapestry to paint a story on is already there and can easily evoke emotions if you have a good writer.

 

 

 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well only things left from kickstarter :

1. story

2. bandits

Npc - traders are npc so we have them

I don't think anything more is missing from kickstarter

So bandits were finished they could just add them.  Behemot was quiet unfinished. Well true they neved added them but still - they were complited .

 

 

Bandits were good enough for you. They were good enough for the modders who re-enabled them. But obviously they were not good enough for TFP.

 

I don't know the criterias on which TFP decided this. But it is like a soccer game where the referee says this was no goal and you as spectator say it was a goal. You can say it as often as you like but the newspaper the next day will print there was no goal. End of story.

 

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You don't read the quest descriptions anymore in 7D2D, sure, they don't contain anything useful. But just by adding a few special quests with relevant text you can give the traders a backstory, involve them in the story and advance the story. I don't know if TFP will do it that way, but a possible tapestry to paint a story on is already there and can easily evoke emotions if you have a good writer.

never said it needs to be complex additions. But right now, we have nothing.

But there is nothing in 7D2D we only know of a duke. Nothing more.
I said this a lot. This isn't an RPG because there is no story to play a character in.
It is an empty world. You can pretend to be cheeseman McFly in Fifa, that doesnt make it an RPG

I will refrain from telling you that these old games shouldn't be a standart because they were limited by their times.
But what I will tell you is that...
honestly I don't know anymore xD I just wanted to say that without hating on these old classics.

If you can replace an NPC with a questboard, it is not an NPC. Not even by MMO standarts (where they can't move bc of syncing)

 

[Crater Creator]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Adding more loot is not "content".
We need stuff to do. Goals to achive.

This is not minecraft where it is all about building.

It CAN be. But then its not a survival game.

"Content" I mean:

 

 

Then I disagree with you on what content is.  Whenever a developer adds models, textures, animations, or effects to the game, they're adding stuff that you didn't see or experience in the game before.  That's content.  Whenever a world builder adds a new, original dungeon crawl location, that's content.  The whole job of every game artist, if not other devs, is to produce content.

 

If this were a released game, new models/textures/animations/effects/POIs would be sold as DLC.  DLC is short for downloadable content.

 

You say the game needs NPCs/bandits/story and stuff to do.  Matt115 questions whether something like new traffic lights change the game.  I'm not taking issue with either of those sentiments.  But I object to using such a limited definition, which seems to be that TFP aren't adding the specific features you most want and that means they're not adding content.

[JoeDaFrogman]

59 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Would be great if the traders at least wandered around their POIs.

 

If I ever get the chance, I would love to make a trader POI of any of the existing traders.  That way it might be more believable when you bump into another Jen but in a different POI....😄

"why yes, I do have a twin sister, also named Jen.    Our parents were @%$#s.  Sorry."

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

never said it needs to be complex additions. But right now, we have nothing.

But there is nothing in 7D2D we only know of a duke. Nothing more.
I said this a lot. This isn't an RPG because there is no story to play a character in.
It is an empty world. You can pretend to be cheeseman McFly in Fifa, that doesnt make it an RPG

I will refrain from telling you that these old games shouldn't be a standart because they were limited by their times.
But what I will tell you is that...
honestly I don't know anymore xD I just wanted to say that without hating on these old classics.

If you can replace an NPC with a questboard, it is not an NPC. Not even by MMO standarts (where they can't move bc of syncing)

 

For me Trader Rect is much more alive than those NPCs in the old games. Yes, there is no story about him, but the few sentences (as long as you haven't heard them a hundred times) give some character.

 

Now story. Did you ever buy an RPG game in Early Access or some form of beta? Because they feared that the story would be common knowledge even before the game reached release most RPG games either don't do open beta at all or restrict the beta/EA to the first few chapters.

 

I don't know how TFP will do it, but it wouldn't surprise me if much of the story doesn't show up in EA at all or is added at the last possible moment.

 

[Matt115]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Bandits were good enough for you. They were good enough for the modders who re-enabled them. But obviously they were not good enough for TFP.

 

I don't know the criterias on which TFP decided this. But it is like a soccer game where the referee says this was no goal and you as spectator say it was a goal. You can say it as often as you like but the newspaper the next day will print there was no goal. End of story.

 

 

 

i know it is subjective but... i don't say i support this but- people complaing about long develpment period. So if they added this + story this would avoid this complaining. Because we would get "1.0" few year ago maybe in 2017-2018. ofc now whatever TFP would do with this people will complain about long period

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For me Trader Rect is much more alive than those NPCs in the old games. Yes, there is no story about him, but the few sentences (as long as you haven't heard them a hundred times) give some character.

 

Now story. Did you ever buy an RPG game in Early Access or some form of beta? Because they feared that the story would be common knowledge even before the game reached release most RPG games either don't do open beta at all or restrict the beta/EA to the first few chapters.

 

I don't know how TFP will do it, but it wouldn't surprise me if much of the story doesn't show up in EA at all or is added at the last possible moment.

 

i have to agree- boba fett have only few sentece and  is so popular.  Well even games with good story- like castlevania have "static" npc.

Well i still hope story will be added as "lore" in l4d2 style

[DiegoLBC1]

2 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

Whenever a developer adds models, textures, animations, or effects to the game, they're adding stuff that you didn't see or experience in the game before.  That's content.  (...)

(...) But I object to using such a limited definition, which seems to be that TFP aren't adding the specific features you most want and that means they're not adding content.

I've seen forum posts a lot, and most of the "complaints" look the same because of this. I even mentioned this in another thread.

[Darklegend222]

19 minutes ago, DiegoLBC1 said:

I've seen forum posts a lot, and most of the "complaints" look the same because of this. I even mentioned this in another thread.

I feel the biggest thing issue about the game getting new ideas, content, and a very large player base is that the game is extremely open. You can nearly play however you want and then you get a bunch of people on a thread who are all playing drastically differently and have many conflicting opinions with each other.

 

It's hard for the devs to directly say "well we're adding content, we don't care about you right now", I don't believe the devs are AVOIDING suggestions that a majority of the playerbase want. They're on a schedule and that schedule doesn't have every minor thing that each individual wants. Look at farming or cooking, people are split down the middle.

 

It's gotten to a point where the moderators have simply taken to nearly copy-pasting the same paragraph because there's nothing they can do about it, and the devs are not very interested in taking another year or 2 so they can cater to every single individual on this forum or to resolve every dispute.

 

It'd be nice if the developers were more open with what they're currently working on so we have some idea, but we never hear about how many tests, scrapped ideas, or implementations just failed. It would give them a bad image in my opinion, so I think they're doing what they can.

 

Modding isn't entirely a solution for players to get what they want, however the majority of games can't be modded in a traditional manner like this one to add or change small things. This game is very customisable with mods, so it's the next best thing for players to get what the devs won't do.

 

The devs are in a position of making the game THEY want, and the people who dislike it are more than free to make/download mods to cater to the way THEY want to play as well.  It's not something a lot of customers like to hear in an Early Access game being developed, so the moderators have to be in a position to slap a band-aid on it and hope the issue goes away with their copy-pastes.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Define "character".

 

An entity in the game that could be played by a real person but is played by the computer. Could my character controlled by me stand behind that counter and sell stuff from my inventory to people who came in and tell them to go clear a particular POI and then come back for a reward? Yes I could. As a player character I could do what the traders do. The traders even have different personalities. They are not just blackboards indistinguishable from each other. Your litmus test for what constitutes an NPC is way higher than anything I've ever seen.

 

It's great to have high standards and I'm not arguing this to try and convince TFP to not strive for excellence and just go with what we have now. But you are just way off on what qualifies as an NPC. The traders definitely do AND I hope TFP doesn't leave it at that and does more. I hope we have Noah and The Duke and that at least a few of the bandits might be lieutenant rank and have some personality and interactivity besides simply attack and kill.

 

Honestly, the zombies themselves are NPCs when it comes right to it. In fact, one of the stretch goals was that players would be able to play as zombies. So if zombies are going to be player controlled characters then that makes the computer controlled ones NPCs.

 

I get you don't want TFP to define NPCs so loosely but that doesn't mean you have to morph the definition of an NPC past all recognition. I think your personal definitions of "NPC" and "content" are unrealistic enough to lead you to disappointment again and again-- and not just with this game.

 

You can call the traders bulletin boards but the fact is that they weren't implemented as bulletin boards. They were implemented as characters. You are correct that their functions are pretty limited and I agree with you completely that TFP should reach as high as they are able. I'd like to see better NPCs for sure.

 

7 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

It's gotten to a point where the moderators have simply taken to nearly copy-pasting the same paragraph

 

I'll have you know I have completely and lovingly re-written them every single time!

[8_Hussars]

TFPs need to hire Greg...|
 

 

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Matt115 said:

i know it is subjective but... i don't say i support this but- people complaing about long develpment period. So if they added this + story this would avoid this complaining. Because we would get "1.0" few year ago maybe in 2017-2018. ofc now whatever TFP would do with this people will complain about long period

 

So? The forums main function IS complaining (about bugs, wants and dislikes). The devs have to decide on which to act. And luckily for many here they don't listen to people who want to make business decisions for them. They decided to keep developing in EA until they are satisfied with the game. And thats it, a dead horse subject actually.

 

I don't know why you try to find a solution for people who argue a lost case. Or discuss alternative realities in which TFP could have finished the game years ago. They could, but they didn't. They had the power to cut short development at any time even before A16, adding a few NPCs with a gun in hand standing around and calling them bandits or even saying "we will add bandits after release" is easy. And they have that power now as well, but I'm pretty sure they won't.

 

If they had finished the 1.0 a few years ago, this forum would be mainly complaining about basic gameplay not changing enough for making the game fresh again. Exactly why many people here on the forum are telling TFP to please stay in alpha because that gives a fresh experience every year.

 

 

11 hours ago, Matt115 said:

i have to agree- boba fett have only few sentece and  is so popular.  Well even games with good story- like castlevania have "static" npc.

Well i still hope story will be added as "lore" in l4d2 style

 

Boba Fett is an excellent example. And reminded me of another one: Minsc. Most people who played Baldurs Gate loved Minsc, and Minsc is the archetype of a character defined by a few funny one-liners.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:45 AM, gecko2015 said:

But I'm starting to see the dilemma that you face.  Looking at Steam's concurrent players historical data, after major updates it seems I'm not the only one who plays for a bit and then puts it off again after giving it a play or two after a 'major update'. You're trying to increase your player-base, keep the game alive, and keep it up-to-date. For that, people truly appreciate it - as you're one of the few indie devs who have stood by their "Alpha" game. Despite the game still being in "Alpha", it's honestly a complete game by this point and I'm sure many would agree with me.

 

The player base is still bigger than ever. Sure it was going down after the release peak but that´s normal.

 

And no it´s not complete. The map generation needs a lot of work (FOr example all T5 poi´s at least once per map, why is this so hard?) , the NPC´s aren´t in yet, the story is missing, The balancing is still way off, we have 300 levels and can beat everything with level 50.

Edited January 14, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)