Loving A20 except the way loot is COMPLETELY BROKEN

[BFT2020]

35 minutes ago, nostalginator said:

Update:   New save.  This is how it's going:

By Day 7 Horde Night, I've found 75 lead weights... and 38 steel-- not from wrenching anything, I legit just looted it.  I have no crucible, and I have yet to loot a recipe that requires steel.  [Second edit:]  I have also looted 6 acid.

You cannot convince me that that's not somehow fundamentally broken.  You just can't.  I'd STILL take a beaker over 38 steel because I know I'll be able to buy a crucible by the time I see one, whereas apparently I have to visit a T5 POI in a winter biome to have a chance of looting a beaker, at which point I will likely loot more than one, for reasons.

It’s not broken, just random.  Day 9 and I got a beaker.  I haven’t found a workstation schematic or a cement mixer yet which are some items I want.  I have no need of a chemistry station this early in the game.  A beaker is not a must have early in the game, just like the crucible.

[Krougal]

The chem station isn't a guaranteed reward by the way, I just finished T3. I do have DA 3, which I don't know if that changes anything, although I'd imagine it just gives me extra choices. I got a motorcycle package, which was kinda a let down since it didn't have the chassis.

 

Looking through the code, the chem station is 1 out of 14 possible items, of which 5 are presented by default, so there is a fair chance of getting it, but no guarantee.

 

[Scyris]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:34 AM, meganoth said:

Or you could jiust accept that the game throws random difficulties at you. Not having a chem station is severe blow to your ammo production, but you can buy ammo and blackpowder in adequate quantities, you can manage and that will be a unique playthrough.

 

But not getting the cheesecake buff leading to a rage quit?? There are worse things that can happen.

 

 

Not like you even have to make ammo with how common it is, unless you just suck at the game and have to use a gun for everything. my current game i've only used guns to kill bears or direwolves, no need to use guns on ferals, I just club em. I got the cement mixer schematic real early this game but couldn't for the life of me find the workbench, game threw me a bone though, when I ranked up from t2 to t3 a workbench was one of the choices, so you bet I took it. There are certain things in 7dtd you buy as soon as you see them: workbench, chem lab to name 2. If I don't have a chem lab and one is for sale, I will do anything I can to get my hands on it. I play with no int in my games, so I am at the mercy of rngesus for what recipes I find. I just get 1 point in adv engineering which can be gotten with base intel so I can get a forge up early. Vehicle parts especially motocycle ones I also will buy if I have the dukes even if it drains me to 0.

 

I actually love the loot in A20, its added some needed difficulty to the game that it lacked in A19. Was far FAR to easy to get everything in A19. I like the new challenge with loot.

[nostalginator]

49 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

It’s not broken, just random.  Day 9 and I got a beaker.  I haven’t found a workstation schematic or a cement mixer yet which are some items I want.  I have no need of a chemistry station this early in the game.  A beaker is not a must have early in the game, just like the crucible.

It's not "just random."  It's "random, with certain probabilities adjusted way down and certain others way up."  There is no real reason why I shouldn't find and loot steel, I suppose, but there is also no real-world applicable, believable reason why beakers are gated behind an extremely low probability of finding them at all (as was found to be the case upthread), or for fishing weights to be as common as wildflowers.  I can only willingly suspend my disbelief so far.

That's not even addressing the fact that finding parts to craft the things you've put points into remains an unreasonable slog.  By the time you find enough bow parts (for example) to make a wooden bow you either already have one or have moved past the need for bows/crossbows altogether.

In any case, it seems like a lot of you have objections to my complaints that can be summed up thus:  "That's not how I play!"  I mean, good for you, I guess?  Do you imagine forcing everyone into your particular playstyle would be a desirable thing?  I suppose I could adopt a different, non-firearm-heavy playstyle if melee didn't come with a HUGE attendant risk of infection in the first few days-- which wouldn't be a problem if the chance of finding honey in stumps hadn't literally been reduced down to almost nothing; antibiotics are extremely difficult to find, and the trader cannot reliably be counted on to have even the herbal recipe, let alone actual pills.

The RNG giveth, and the RNG withholdeth, I guess, but not even the gods of Greek mythology were this capricious.

[nostalginator]

51 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

Not like you even have to make ammo with how common it is, unless you just suck at the game and have to use a gun for everything. my current game i've only used guns to kill bears or direwolves, no need to use guns on ferals, I just club em. I got the cement mixer schematic real early this game but couldn't for the life of me find the workbench, game threw me a bone though, when I ranked up from t2 to t3 a workbench was one of the choices, so you bet I took it. There are certain things in 7dtd you buy as soon as you see them: workbench, chem lab to name 2. If I don't have a chem lab and one is for sale, I will do anything I can to get my hands on it. I play with no int in my games, so I am at the mercy of rngesus for what recipes I find. I just get 1 point in adv engineering which can be gotten with base intel so I can get a forge up early. Vehicle parts especially motocycle ones I also will buy if I have the dukes even if it drains me to 0.

 

I actually love the loot in A20, its added some needed difficulty to the game that it lacked in A19. Was far FAR to easy to get everything in A19. I like the new challenge with loot.

If you're not running bears/pumas/all canines over with your motorcycle, hitting them a few times with a burning-shaft equipped baseball bat (at least), then following up with a couple stabs for bleeding damage also while they're still stunned, then I guess you just suck at the game.  Using bullets on animals?  Pffffft.

(I don't actually believe using bullets on animals is a waste, but this is how you're coming across.  Let people play how they play without "you just suck at the game" being part of your criticism, okay?)

I agree that loot was too easy in A19 but the opposite extreme is not making me have a good time, and I still think the fact that you can loot T6 items but not craft them is backwards.

Edited December 25, 2021 by nostalginator
a better sentence IS possible (see edit history)

[Krougal]

At @Scyris but what difficulty too? Hell, I'm playing with a headshot mod and on lower difficulty, not to mention I tend to use a baseball bat (I am Neegan!) as my primary until I have t6 real guns (not these bull@%$# pipeguns), so I have way more ammo than I need. I have been raising the difficulty to try and find the sweet spot. Without the headshot mod and on higher difficulty going to go through a lot more ammo with the stupid bullet sponges at higher GS.

 

It's still easy to get everything, except the recipes you want 😛

 

 

[Scyris]

11 minutes ago, nostalginator said:

If you're not running bears/pumas/all canines over with your motorcycle, hitting them a few times with a burning-shaft equipped baseball bat (at least), then following up with a couple stabs for bleeding damage also while they're still stunned, then I guess you just suck at the game.  Using bullets on animals?  Pffffft.

(I don't actually believe using bullets on animals is a waste, but this is how you're coming across.  Let people play how they play without "you just suck at the game" being part of your criticism, okay?)

I agree that loot was too easy in A19 but the opposite extreme is not making me have a good time, and I still think the fact that you can loot T6 items but not craft them is backwards.

 

I actually used to do that with my vehicles etc, but it was quite inefficent, so I went back to just unloading on them with a gun. It does the job much faster.

[nostalginator]

2 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

I actually used to do that with my vehicles etc, but it was quite inefficent, so I went back to just unloading on them with a gun. It does the job much faster.

Oh it's extreeeeemely inefficient!  But it's fun.

[Laz Man]

Day 2 ... having trouble finding a hammer though lol...

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, nostalginator said:

"random, with certain probabilities adjusted way down and certain others way up."

 

AKA "balance". These higher & lower probabilities for items have always been in the game - it's never been an equal chance for any item in the game. You just don't like the current balance and your opinion is "it's broken" and nobody can convince you otherwise. Others don't have any problem with the current balance and don't think anything is broken. You're not wrong, they're not wrong. Luckily, the game is fairly easily adjustable for anyone with a text editor and there are plenty of people here who will provide pretty detailed instructions if asked nicely.

[meganoth]

19 hours ago, nostalginator said:

It's not "just random."  It's "random, with certain probabilities adjusted way down and certain others way up."  There is no real reason why I shouldn't find and loot steel, I suppose, but there is also no real-world applicable, believable reason why beakers are gated behind an extremely low probability of finding them at all (as was found to be the case upthread), or for fishing weights to be as common as wildflowers.  I can only willingly suspend my disbelief so far.

 

Sorry, but your initial suggestion was not about specific probabilities. If you had said from the start "x is too seldom, y too common and those specific probabilities should be changed", there would have been a much different conversation here.

 

Sure, the probabilites have to be worked on, not surprising after the loot tables had a full rework. Honey could be a bit more common, beakers chance in mid or late game could be increased a bit. I don't think beakers should drop anywhere in early game though except through a lucky drop, as a chem station is the LAST workstation in this game. In other words nearly end-game content.

 

But your initial suggestion was to change random into fake-random, i.e. people should believe it is random but the game should remove any obstacles the survival part offers and make sure his "luck" never runs out. And this I object to.

 

Disbelief? So fully stacked traders with an invisible supply network but no defense and no customers but you does not already fire up your disbelief beyond repair, but some item not dropping enough does? There are so many believability holes in this game you could build an opera inside. Accept that this in no simulation or find a real simulation to play.

 

19 hours ago, nostalginator said:

That's not even addressing the fact that finding parts to craft the things you've put points into remains an unreasonable slog.  By the time you find enough bow parts (for example) to make a wooden bow you either already have one or have moved past the need for bows/crossbows altogether.

 

Very true. I'm fully with you on this, we should find a lot less full weapons and more parts instead. Madmole seems to be working on a new weapon-crafting system, so it seems TFP recognized a problem there as well. Not saying the new system will be better, but advantages and disadvantages will be different.

 

19 hours ago, nostalginator said:

In any case, it seems like a lot of you have objections to my complaints that can be summed up thus:  "That's not how I play!"  I mean, good for you, I guess?  Do you imagine forcing everyone into your particular playstyle would be a desirable thing? 

 

If it is about drop changes, then yes, a lot has also to do with playstyle. If we are still talking about random versus fake-random, then no, there is no playstyle that says I want to get stuff exactly when I need it. 

 

19 hours ago, nostalginator said:

I suppose I could adopt a different, non-firearm-heavy playstyle if melee didn't come with a HUGE attendant risk of infection in the first few days-- which wouldn't be a problem if the chance of finding honey in stumps hadn't literally been reduced down to almost nothing; antibiotics are extremely difficult to find, and the trader cannot reliably be counted on to have even the herbal recipe, let alone actual pills.

The RNG giveth, and the RNG withholdeth, I guess, but not even the gods of Greek mythology were this capricious.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Krougal]

How is it not fake-random now? Everything comes off of lists.

What exactly is fake-random?

 

[JCrook1028]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:04 PM, nostalginator said:

, but there is also no real-world applicable, believable reason why beakers are gated behind an extremely low probability of finding them at all

Sure there is, they're fragile and break. And just how many places do you think have beakers in them pre disaster to be there for looting after? They'd be pretty damn rare in a real situation, makes perfect sense to me. Not that it needs to make sense anyway, it's all about gameplay. They used to be everywhere and that sucked. Having things hard to get is good.

[nostalginator]

23 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Day 2 ... having trouble finding a hammer though lol...

Even if you never find one, you can still craft a hammer.  You cannot craft a beaker.

[nostalginator]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Sorry, but your initial suggestion was not about specific probabilities. If you had said from the start "x is too seldom, y too common and those specific probabilities should be changed", there would have been a much different conversation here.

 

Sure, the probabilites have to be worked on, not surprising after the loot tables had a full rework. Honey could be a bit more common, beakers chance in mid or late game could be increased a bit. I don't think beakers should drop anywhere in early game though except through a lucky drop, as a chem station is the LAST workstation in this game. In other words nearly end-game content.

 

But your initial suggestion was to change random into fake-random, i.e. people should believe it is random but the game should remove any obstacles the survival part offers and make sure his "luck" never runs out. And this I object to.

 

Disbelief? So fully stacked traders with an invisible supply network but no defense and no customers but you does not already fire up your disbelief beyond repair, but some item not dropping enough does? There are so many believability holes in this game you could build an opera inside. Accept that this in no simulation or find a real simulation to play.

 

 

Very true. I'm fully with you on this, we should find a lot less full weapons and more parts instead. Madmole seems to be working on a new weapon-crafting system, so it seems TFP recognized a problem there as well. Not saying the new system will be better, but advantages and disadvantages will be different.

 

 

If it is about drop changes, then yes, a lot has also to do with playstyle. If we are still talking about random versus fake-random, then no, there is no playstyle that says I want to get stuff exactly when I need it. 

 

 

(If I weren't such a forum noob I'd know how to the point-by-point answer format you just did.  Alas.)

My initial post didn't say that in so many words, no, but I thought the meaning was clear enough.  Mea culpa.

I agree with just about everything you say here but, honestly-- if you prioritize intelligence you can have the option to build a chemistry station at level one.  You'd need to get lucky in other ways (like finding a forge schematic or a wrench), but it's at least within the realm of possibility to have it done within five levels.  Passing 50 levels without ever finding a beaker, though?  In anything?  Not even a broken chemistry station which would've required a beaker to be built in the first place?  Just when does "end game" start, anyway?

The game already has a certain amount of "fake-random" baked into it.  I merely wish for the fake-random to be adjusted to be less improbable.

Those "believability holes" you speak of?  I don't see them.  We get airdrops, and we start the game having been kicked out of someplace that had to be safe from zombies, so that points to civilization existing beyond what we can see, and one that has an investment in our survival for whatever reasons.  So I can make the leap of faith there.  I cannot make such a leap with 75 fishing weights.  I can't imagine that many existing in separate homes within a 100-200 meter radius of me in real life.  Trophies, sure, but fishing weights?  Nah.  Not happening.  I don't need this to be a reality simulation in order to point out that the game as it stands breaks my immersion.

Glad to hear Madmole is doing that.

Again, fake-random is already in the game.  I don't want to get stuff exactly when I need it; I find stuff before I can have a use for it all the time.  That's one thing storage chests are good for.  I wouldn't even notice this was happening if I could just bypass the RNG and craft a beaker in the first place.
 

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Sure there is, they're fragile and break. And just how many places do you think have beakers in them pre disaster to be there for looting after? They'd be pretty damn rare in a real situation, makes perfect sense to me. Not that it needs to make sense anyway, it's all about gameplay. They used to be everywhere and that sucked. Having things hard to get is good.

Beakers can be made from plastics or metal, thus invalidating your "fragility" argument.  I maintain that in a house literally full of chemistry stuff you should be able to find one.  You should be able to loot one from a destroyed chem station since that might be a part that survived.  I don't need them to be everywhere; I just need them to be slightly more common than "you can buy a whole chem station before you can buy a beaker."  And again, if I could just craft the damn thing, I wouldn't even care about the RNG.  Having things be hard to get is only good up to a certain point, otherwise the ideal game would be one in which you could only loot fishing weights.

(why did the forum append this to a post I already made??)

Edited December 26, 2021 by nostalginator (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:04 PM, nostalginator said:

  I've already moved past that save

I’m calling it now that acid will be your next white whale…;)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, nostalginator said:

Those "believability holes" you speak of?  I don't see them.  We get airdrops, and we start the game having been kicked out of someplace that had to be safe from zombies, so that points to civilization existing beyond what we can see, and one that has an investment in our survival for whatever reasons.  So I can make the leap of faith there.  I cannot make such a leap with 75 fishing weights.  I can't imagine that many existing in separate homes within a 100-200 meter radius of me in real life.  Trophies, sure, but fishing weights?  Nah.  Not happening.  I don't need this to be a reality simulation in order to point out that the game as it stands breaks my immersion.

Glad to hear Madmole is doing that.

Again, fake-random is already in the game.  I don't want to get stuff exactly when I need it; I find stuff before I can have a use for it all the time.  That's one thing storage chests are good for.  I wouldn't even notice this was happening if I could just bypass the RNG and craft a beaker in the first place.
 

Beakers can be made from plastics or metal, thus invalidating your "fragility" argument.  I maintain that in a house literally full of chemistry stuff you should be able to find one.  You should be able to loot one from a destroyed chem station since that might be a part that survived.  I don't need them to be everywhere; I just need them to be slightly more common than "you can buy a whole chem station before you can buy a beaker."  And again, if I could just craft the damn thing, I wouldn't even care about the RNG.  Having things be hard to get is only good up to a certain point, otherwise the ideal game would be one in which you could only loot fishing weights.

(why did the forum append this to a post I already made??)

1, Well airdrops can be explain by: nevzgane is cutted by nuclear zone so only way to get is using a plane. In past separate homes were quiet common - now me have big corps and more people live  that in 40-50.

2 yeah beaker need to be crafted too. honestly  beaker is so easy to find. Idk how shops looks like in USA and what people keep in their house but if 7dtd get poland map you would find beaker in almost every big shop so i agree with you

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, nostalginator said:

You should be able to loot one from a destroyed chem station

 

But...you can.

 

<lootgroup name="groupChemistryStationLoot03">
    <item name="toolBeaker" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>
    <item name="chemistryStationSchematic" loot_prob_template="low"/>
</lootgroup>

 

5 hours ago, Krougal said:

How is it not fake-random now? Everything comes off of lists.

What exactly is fake-random?

 

I thought in the context of this thread it meant "random, but with rubber-banding so that <what you need> becomes more and more likely the longer you don't find it". I'm not sure what "coming off a list" has to do with "fakeness" of random results? I mean, a roulette wheel just pulls numbers off of a list. Or to use an example more fitting, a roll of two dice simply gives a result from a known list, with some results more likely than others.

 

Game loot is truly random (setting aside that it must use a pseudo-RNG based on some seed value). The lists don't change that at all.

 

Edit to add: unless you meant that the only non-fake system would be "every item in the game has an exactly equal chance to be found at all times from any lootable container" in which case there used to be a mod for that. Find T3 Q6 guns in trash piles at level 2! Fun!

Edited December 26, 2021 by Boidster (see edit history)

[nostalginator]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

I’m calling it now that acid will be your next white whale…;)

I'm not having trouble finding acid.  I won't be making as many Learnin' Elixirs because I'm not finding them like that, but I already have 7 and I've only had one Blood Moon so far.

10 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

But...you can.

 

<lootgroup name="groupChemistryStationLoot03">
    <item name="toolBeaker" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>
    <item name="chemistryStationSchematic" loot_prob_template="low"/>
</lootgroup>

I stand corrected.  However, having the exact same garbage chance of looting it from a chemistry station as anywhere else is not what I meant.

[Widget]

Loot progression is way too fast, faster than player progression. In most of cases it's not even worth to invest into some perks just to build something because you get such items lvl 6 from loot earlier.

 

When we got on our server (private, 4 people playing) steel tools and perks to use them (especially Sexual Tyranosaurus), we already started to drop lvl 5 and 6 from loot. Workbench found in book before I, person dedicated to engineering, got skills for it. I've stopped upgrading grease monkey on lvl 3 (motorcycles), so we don't have 4x4, but yesterday we've made 3 x Gyro. Heavy armor perks? Yeah, I've made them only to remove penalty, because I already have Iron Armor lvl 5/6 from loot. Auto shotgun, didn't even had perks for this, got one lvl 3 from loot. Then we've found schematics, so I've made perks to build lvl 5's and use it better, but we don't have parts for it. Meanwhile I've found another lvl 5. I think I will start getting sixes before we find parts.

 

We even wiped server and started over to nerf everything a little. I also didn't make Lucky Looter on purpose, but still got that bad taste in my mouth.

 

I really don't mind changes and game evolution every Alpha, but A20 in matter of loottable is broken. Loot gives you everything you need for gamestage you are in. There is no need to struggle, to invest into anything just to be able to build it. One of mods said on this forum that changes are made because of care bears, because they complained about hardcore style of the game and nothing important to be found. It may work for newbies but core gameplay doesn't make sense now.

 

I also read that Quests are meta now. I thought about it and I must agree with that opinion. You can loot almost everything and get those missing "because you are unlucky" items from traders.

 

Only solution to make game harder now is to make XP boost at level lower than 100%, because everything depend on it. You won't have a feeling that you've unlocked half of game content on day 7. The problem are levels 40+ when it takes ages to level up.

[asmosnuts]

     How much easier can the game be made? Struggling to find certain items has been much harder in the past, forcing you to rethink or restart and it should remain so. Otherwise you may as well start in a fully built and equipped base with an inventory full of all you need.

Pipe weapons already give too much advantage at low levels, expecting to easily find all you need is as unrealistic as fake randomising.

 

 

[Widget]

Pipe weapons killed bow experience. I also think that you got weapons too fast to invest any skillpoint in bows. I would say that it counts for all low/med tier items/technology. Why bother if you spend 2 more days to start with endgame technology?

 

 

[Urban Blackbear]

It's extremely random. Started an 8k world and got directed to a Trader Rekt. Looting his workbench and chem station got me the plans for both. I deleted that save in horror because nothing else good was going to happen.

[DiegoLBC1]

2 hours ago, Widget said:

Pipe weapons killed bow experience. I also think that you got weapons too fast to invest any skillpoint in bows. I would say that it counts for all low/med tier items/technology. Why bother if you spend 2 more days to start with endgame technology?

 

 

Even with the pipe weapons I continued to invest in my bow skills. I prefer to use the bow to keep myself stealthy as long as possible when I go loot.

[Boidster]

7 hours ago, Widget said:

One of mods said on this forum that changes are made because of care bears

 

Don't be coy, name names. I want to read this quote and know who said it.