The weird implementation of stealth and its counter measures.

[Viktoriusiii]

Well now. I do not want to influence your instinct, so please vote on the poll before I bring up any arguments.
And yes this has been said in a couple of threads, but not only do I want them to see that this is prevalent, I also want to lay out every reason (and potential solution) for this very complicated topic.

Prefix:
I love stealth in games. I also like to go in guns blazing sometimes, but the feeling of being weak, and yet through intelligence and planing, overcoming the obstacle feels great.
So I am slightly biased. But I have complimented A19 and now A20 a lot so I do consider myself pretty much on board with most of the changes.
Also I have said a lot about stupid zombie placement in the last few years (HOW did they get inside the walls??? Who put them there?), but this is only a side issue but should not be forgotten.



We all know about the automatic wake up mechanic of Z's in POIs by now.
You pass a certain block and every zombie in the room wakes up for seemingly no reason.

I am pretty sure this is a way to give the player drama and an 'experience'. This has been the philosophy of TFPs since very early on. Where gameplay and logic will suffer to give the player memorable experiences.
To be fair, they HAVE slowly but surely tried to find a middle ground on many of these issues (most houses are now actually properly run down, so when a floor collapses, it is not completely out of nowhere. As well as giving stealth characters the option to delay these traps)
So I am hopeful about this issue as well.
BUT the reason for its implementation is that sneaking is EXTREMELY powerful to clear POIs. You basicially have no risk and just wander through the poi collecting items and XP.
So I do get the reason for this implementation. The WAY of this implementation is absolutely insanely bad though.
EVERY POI has them and there is nothing you can do except not following the "given" path.

This ruins the only upside to stealth characters. They WILL have a hard time on hordenight, no matter how many quests they completed (remember that gamestage is correlated to level, so many quests also mean harder hordenights).


I have said it a billion times:
Everything needs its ups and downs. If there is a choice between something with only ups and one with some downs, there is no reason not to go for the first one. And the same is true with some negatives and all negatives.

MY OPINION:
TFPs want to force players to fight and interact with the world. (in a way a good thing, since players will optimize the fun out of every game)
But I do not think that this should be this forcing. It is already VERY pushing when it comes to exploring the world (you need to loot or you are f***ed) and this is just one step too far for me.
If a player enjoys stealthing around, let them. Give them smaller obstacles to make it interesting (like bridges that need to be jumped without stealth or something), but do not FORCE them into fighting. Especially not with scripted events.
If it makes sense, ok. You should STILL use it in moderation (and not in EVERY poi, like how it currently is), but at least it makes sense.
But scripting it makes the player feel cheated. "I did everything right and I am still being punished!"



So how do we combine these two seemingly opposed problems (keeping stealth strong while still giving some excitement to looting)?
There are a lot of different possibilities. I will list them from easiest to implement to hardest.
Not all of them should be combined, but some definately can be.


0.5) delete every "wake up" block, except for traprooms
Obviously not brilliant, but easy to do and fixes at least one issue. (that is why it is point 0.5)
If I fall down a broken block into a room filled with Z's, they should wake up.
Everything else kinda doesn't make sense considering sneaking is exactly that: not getting spotted.


1) wake them up without giving them aggro
This is probably the easiest and most effective way to resolve this issue.
This makes stealth far more challenging, fills the world with life and still gives the player a way to shine through stealth. (also it fixes the stupid placement where every zombie is behind a wall)

2) wake up percentages based on stealth skill/detection meter
This should also be easy to be implemented. Depending on your sneak skill (or even on your "detection" value if you want it a bit more refined) only a certain amount will actually wake up. And an even lower amount could pull aggro (so a mix between 1&2). This would mean that there is still SOME aggro, which will probably cause more aggro if the player isn't skilled enough, as well as making stealth worth it.
Downside: it makes late game stealth just as boring as it was pre A20 (in the minds of TFPs. I loved being completely sneaky not having to fight even once)

 

3) Counterplay
give us some way to avoid these forced wake ups. A pile of trash in the door, a tripwire connected to an alarm that can be lockpicked, any indicators that the next room has awake zombies (like zombiesounds a few blocks before you get there.
Downside: skilled players will be able to not fight again.

4) make POIs with easy and hard paths

this is by far the hardest to implement, since it requires total reconstruction of pois. But it would help.
Instead of giving us exactly one way, give us multiple. One quick one and one long one where stealth can be used.

I won't expand on this because it will never be done, but I still wanted to mention it.

[meganoth]

In A19 auto-wakeup rooms were relatively seldom. Less than 5%, someone went through the code.

 

I don't know if that ratio changed, but I noticed that I have a much harder time to stay in stealth. Even removing noisy stuff on the floor to avoid making noise ironically wakes up zombies already. And especially shooting at a door to see the zombie behind wakes up the zombie (which it never did in A19). In other words, my problems seem not to come from auto-aggro rooms.

 

Now before we jump to remedies we should really find out, whether the cause of all the new difficulties is A) auto-aggro rooms, B) weaker stealth, or C) activated feral sense (which I thought was only affecting wandering zombies, not sleepers, but maybe I'm wrong?)

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

I don't mean to be all high and mighty, but it has nothing to do with weaker stealth or feral sense (not active).

It is very special rooms that always react the same way.

Sometimes I have no problem sneaking right in front of a zombie.
And in POI 'x' room 'y', every time I come to a specific block, suddenly every zombie is awake. No matter how low my detection bar is.
And these rooms are in nearly every (if not every) POI.

I think maybe the farms don't have them.
But as far as I remember, every single one of the 11 non-open-POIs had this.

And yeah in A19 this was totally fine. It was how it was meant to be. Trap activated wake up. "if he falls, wake them up, no matter detection level".
This is fine. And by far from every poi.
But now it is close to every one without traptriggers. You can be sneaking down a hallway perfectly silently like oyu have done 1000 times before...
and BOOM the whole room in front of you is awake and aggro.

*edit*PS:
the reason why I am so sure is because I always do a POI twice. Once to clear it and then another one when activating the quest.
So these room-patterns are REALLY obvious when it happens twice or even more times in a row.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

The point is, if you can break down a wall and get sneak kills easier than actually beeing silent taking the intended way, the system failed hard.

 

If alternative routes also wake them up, it´s kinda ok.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I don't mean to be all high and mighty, but it has nothing to do with weaker stealth or feral sense (not active).

It is very special rooms that always react the same way.

Sometimes I have no problem sneaking right in front of a zombie.
And in POI 'x' room 'y', every time I come to a specific block, suddenly every zombie is awake. No matter how low my detection bar is.
And these rooms are in nearly every (if not every) POI.

I think maybe the farms don't have them.
But as far as I remember, every single one of the 11 non-open-POIs had this.

And yeah in A19 this was totally fine. It was how it was meant to be. Trap activated wake up. "if he falls, wake them up, no matter detection level".
This is fine. And by far from every poi.
But now it is close to every one without traptriggers. You can be sneaking down a hallway perfectly silently like oyu have done 1000 times before...
and BOOM the whole room in front of you is awake and aggro.

*edit*PS:
the reason why I am so sure is because I always do a POI twice. Once to clear it and then another one when activating the quest.
So these room-patterns are REALLY obvious when it happens twice or even more times in a row.

 

I am not sure myself. But I would like a bit more confirmation than this anectodal evidence. I think @Boidster or @BFT2020 had a script to do that count and probably could be convinced to do that again. 

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Sure! I'm not a fan of anecdotal evidence myself.
But since I did the testing already, I know it for myself

But I am totally pro exact numbers.

[Boidster]

I think I might have done something like that, based on counting the # of POI spawn zones which had a particular setting. I can find my old post to refresh my memory, and if they haven't changed the basics of how POIs and spawn areas are constructed I can count it up again.

It would be helpful @Viktoriusiii if you could provide one specific POI by name to double-check in the XML. I think if you're standing within the POI borders then the debug screen will tell you its internal name; "abandoned_farmouse_01" or something like that.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Boidster (see edit history)

[meganoth]

Roland just posted some interesting information in the A20 dev diary:

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Doesn´t feel like you have a stealth check for every zombie. So far they either all woke up or none of them. Same as in A19.

 

And again: If you break a wall to a room with sleepers you shouldn´t have better chances to sneak kill. That´s just stupid.

Edited December 13, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

It is probably harder to name one that doesn't have it
But here are a few:
rural_church_01 (should have 2 triggers. Once when going down the ladder and one inside the main lootroom)

store_book_02 has one when you drop down from the ceiling into the main lootroom
utility_refinery_01 (right after you get into the first big room they start to fall from the skies)

24 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Roland just posted some interesting information in the A20 dev diary:

if so this needs to be changed to your stealthlevel, not the perk.

Because right now I can be SUPER silent and yet fail every time (with sneaking 1 but only <20 visibility)

Edited December 13, 2021 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

gas_station_04 has one for sure. Two woke up when i hit E to start the quest, one room between their room and me. There was one zombie way nearer in the room nex to me wich didn´t wake up. Whole system seems to be a bit wonky.

Edited December 13, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I am not sure myself. But I would like a bit more confirmation than this anectodal evidence. I think @Boidster or @BFT2020 had a script to do that count and probably could be convinced to do that again. 

 

 

Not I.  I was never bothered by auto awake when I went stealth that I never thought about doing any analysis on it.

[DiegoLBC1]

13 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Well now. I do not want to influence your instinct, so please vote on the poll before I bring up any arguments.
And yes this has been said in a couple of threads, but not only do I want them to see that this is prevalent, I also want to lay out every reason (and potential solution) for this very complicated topic.

If a player enjoys stealthing around, let them. Give them smaller obstacles to make it interesting (like bridges that need to be jumped without stealth or something), but do not FORCE them into fighting. Especially not with scripted events.
If it makes sense, ok. You should STILL use it in moderation (and not in EVERY poi, like how it currently is), but at least it makes sense.
But scripting it makes the player feel cheated. "I did everything right and I am still being punished!"


 

I see and agree with your point. 

[Boidster]

EDITED TO CORRECT Passive/Active/Aggressive NUMBER MAPPINGS. There are no POIs where all volumes are "passive".

 

With the caveat that I know nothing about the A20 update to how aggro is determined now, I checked the the SleeperVolumeFlags for A20 POIs and found as follows:

 

Examination of 479 POIs with Sleeper Volumes

POIs with All Volumes Active (flag="0")	157 (32.8%)
POIs with All Volumes Passive (flag="1")	0
POIs with All Volumes Aggressive (flag="2")	75 (15.7%)
POIs with Mix of Active & Aggressive	247 (51.6%)

 

Examples of all-Active POIs:

abandoned_house_01

abandoned_house_06

barn_02

cabin_11

farm_10

 

Examples of all-Aggressive POIs:

apartments_01

downtown_building_01, 02, & 03

farm_02

house_modern_16 through 22

 

22 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

rural_church_01 (should have 2 triggers. Once when going down the ladder and one inside the main lootroom)

store_book_02 has one when you drop down from the ceiling into the main lootroom
utility_refinery_01 (right after you get into the first big room they start to fall from the skies)

 

rural_church_01 is an All-Aggressive POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

 

store_book_02 is a mixed POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,1,2,2,2,2" />

 

utility_refinery_01 is a mixed POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,0,1,1,0,0,2,2,2,2,0" />

 

This assumes, of course, that this particular property is still being used in the same way. I didn't go into the POI editor to play with sleeper volumes.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Boidster (see edit history)

[Orclover]

I understand the need for it since stealth killing an entire Tier V poi quest is actually pretty common.  

[HungryZombie]

You need a "don't care" category. Meaning I don't like or dislike it. It is what it is to me.

[Viktoriusiii]

7 hours ago, Boidster said:

With the caveat that I know nothing about the A20 update to how aggro is determined now, I checked the the SleeperVolumeFlags for A20 POIs and found as follows:

 

Examination of 479 POIs with Sleeper Volumes

POIs with All Volumes Passive ("0")	157 (32.8%)
POIs with All Volumes Active ("1")	0
POIs with All Volumes Aggressive ("2")	75 (15.7%)
POIs with Mix of Active & Aggressive	247 (51.6%)

 

Examples of all-Passive POIs:

abandoned_house_01

abandoned_house_06

barn_02

cabin_11

farm_10

 

Examples of all-Aggressive POIs:

apartments_01

downtown_building_01, 02, & 03

farm_02

house_modern_16 through 22

 

 

rural_church_01 is an All-Aggressive POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

 

store_book_02 is a mixed POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,1,2,2,2,2" />

 

utility_refinery_01 is a mixed POI.

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,0,1,1,0,0,2,2,2,2,0" />

 

This assumes, of course, that this particular property is still being used in the same way. I didn't go into the POI editor to play with sleeper volumes.

You are an absolute hero my man!
Could you still explain what Passive, Active, Agressive and mixed means?

And if you have the time, could you explain these values of 0,0,1,1,2,2???

[Darklegend222]

7 hours ago, Orclover said:

I understand the need for it since stealth killing an entire Tier V poi quest is actually pretty common.  

At the cost of moving slower, taking the time to spend ludicrous amount of points into it, and crafting the bullets/arrows needed since you're ALWAYS using a projectile. Not to mention the quality of the weapon matters and you're going to use much weaker armor.

 

If you can stealth through an entire POI, you're obviously taking the time to do so and going in with a sledgy and machine gun is 6x faster.

[SylenThunder]

One thing that I've always argued needed to be changed is the use of the word "Stealth". It isn't stealth. You aren't some magically invisible being. It's sneaking, and sometimes you just get seen.

 

I am in favor of the way the current system works. Previously you could go through completely invisible to everything except the triggered zones without even putting points to "stealth". The current system makes the "Stealth" tree more important for that type of gameplay.

[hotpoon]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:50 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

1) wake them up without giving them aggro
This is probably the easiest and most effective way to resolve this issue.
This makes stealth far more challenging, fills the world with life and still gives the player a way to shine through stealth. (also it fixes the stupid placement where every zombie is behind a wall)

 

Yes!

 

I'll go one step further and say that I think all sleepers (not just trap room sleepers) should wake up and start walking around when a player is in scope distance. When a player leaves the vicinity without catching their eye, they can go to sleep again - either their original sleeping spot, or in a new spot designated for sleepers.

That way the world would feel more alive and stealth builds would neither be OP (killing immobile sleepers is OP), nor would they be irrelevant (auto wake, auto agro zombies make stealth builds irrelevant)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Since when does stealth mean invisible? According to leo.org and two native speakers (had to double check as a non native) it means lurking/clandestine.

 

Anyways, are there any plans to fix the breaking trough walls beeing more silent? @SylenThunder

 

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

One thing that I've always argued needed to be changed is the use of the word "Stealth". It isn't stealth. You aren't some magically invisible being. It's sneaking, and sometimes you just get seen.

 

I am in favor of the way the current system works. Previously you could go through completely invisible to everything except the triggered zones without even putting points to "stealth". The current system makes the "Stealth" tree more important for that type of gameplay.

NO!!! So much no.
Absolutely @%$#ing not.
I can not NO enough to express my No'yness!

Seriously. Do you know Fifa?
Do you know why basicially everyone who isn't a pro or a child has quit it?
Because of "Momentum". A mechanic that is to this day denied by EA but every player that can play well enough knows it.
It is a way to a) bring in realism (because not every player plays the same and certain things like scoring a goal affects the mood) and b) to control players so that it never gets TOO much out of hand.

It feels like the game cheats you.


Anyways my point is:
It should be up to the player to make mistakes, not the game.
If the player doesn't make mistakes and you 'force' a mistake on him by chance, it is one of the worst feelings there is.

Make stealth even harder.
Make me crawl centimetre by centimetre if you absolutely want to.
Make every trashbag cause an explosion if walked over.

But don't say "well sometimes people make mistakes, therefor the game should mirror that"
NO. The player is the one to make mistakes, not the game.
So forcing it upon a player is the absolute wrong way to do it.


Stealthing should be hard, but rewarding.
If it is impossible, then you basicially took away all the reward.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

NO!!! So much no.
Absolutely @%$#ing not.
I can not NO enough to express my No'yness!

Seriously. Do you know Fifa?
Do you know why basicially everyone who isn't a pro or a child has quit it?
Because of "Momentum". A mechanic that is to this day denied by EA but every player that can play well enough knows it.
It is a way to a) bring in realism (because not every player plays the same and certain things like scoring a goal affects the mood) and b) to control players so that it never gets TOO much out of hand.

It feels like the game cheats you.


Anyways my point is:
It should be up to the player to make mistakes, not the game.
If the player doesn't make mistakes and you 'force' a mistake on him by chance, it is one of the worst feelings there is.

Make stealth even harder.
Make me crawl centimetre by centimetre if you absolutely want to.
Make every trashbag cause an explosion if walked over.

But don't say "well sometimes people make mistakes, therefor the game should mirror that"
NO. The player is the one to make mistakes, not the game.
So forcing it upon a player is the absolute wrong way to do it.


Stealthing should be hard, but rewarding.
If it is impossible, then you basicially took away all the reward.

 

 

Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time

 

Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.

The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it. 😉

 

 

7 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

...
Could you still explain what Passive, Active, Agressive and mixed means?

And if you have the time, could you explain these values of 0,0,1,1,2,2???

 

passive=0, active=1 and agressive=2 . Mixed means a POI has rooms with different values, not all 0 or not all 1, or 2.

 

The interpretation is likely (I'm just guessing, this is one thing I want to find out with the test game):

passive -> All the zombies are sleepers

active -> The zombie are wandering aimless around or standing there, but they don't automatically notice you.

agressive -> The zombies get a roll whether they will notice you. If not they will just stay active, if yes they will attack you

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

 

Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time

 

Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.

The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it. 😉

 

 

 

That response was PURELY aimed towards @SylenThunders argument of "stealth shouldn't work all the time, because realism".
Because that is a mindset that takes away the players agency and gives it an 'rng-feel' because it is not in the control of the player.
It wasn't AT ALL aimed at this current system. I made those points in my OP.
Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of the current implementation of this system, but I understand the thought behind it. It definately needs tweaking though.
So I hope I cleared that up
 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 

That response was PURELY aimed towards @SylenThunders argument of "stealth shouldn't work all the time, because realism".
Because that is a mindset that takes away the players agency and gives it an 'rng-feel' because it is not in the control of the player.
It wasn't AT ALL aimed at this current system. I made those points in my OP.
Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of the current implementation of this system, but I understand the thought behind it. It definately needs tweaking though.
So I hope I cleared that up
 

 

But then you have misread Sylen, I can't see anything in his response about realism. He is arguing along the same lines I did now that it is more dynamic now, and that you really need to invest in stealth to make use of it.

And yes, it is more random this way. You still control it, but not like a chess player but like a general in the field who has always to react to unforseeable events in the battle.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)