A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[SnowDog1942]

8 hours ago, pregnable said:

Any word on any perk tweaks, like charismatic nature, which is both the most useless and OP perk in the game?

Usually when some people complain that something is OP and some people complain its useless — it means its balanced.  Not sure what it means when one person argues with himself about it.

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, pregnable said:

Any word on any perk tweaks, like charismatic nature, which is both the most useless and OP perk in the game?

The word you are looking for is "situational" 😁

 

[Adam the Waster]

20 hours ago, Roland said:

I'm pretty confident there will be an A22.

 

 

I know. My point was that the current clothing and armor system will stay the same at least until A21 (maybe longer).

Kinda sad about that tbh. that was a big point for me. maybe they will take this and make more. 

i would love to have more quantys of them over a small few. 

though i don't think they will only have the 7 they showed (not sure how many) but if it is ill kinda be sad. ngl

5 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Usually when some people complain that something is OP and some people complain its useless — it means its balanced.  Not sure what it means when one person argues with himself about it.

Well its unless in single player, but handy in multiplayer.

so i say its fair, its not a perk meant for Solo  

[pregnable]

10 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Usually when some people complain that something is OP and some people complain its useless — it means its balanced.  Not sure what it means when one person argues with himself about it.

 

In solo it is useless, in multiplayer it is too strong. 

 

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

The word you are looking for is "situational" 😁

 

 

I do not have a problem with it, but I do not see the last rank of it sticking around.  Just curious about what the plans are for it. 

 

If they really want to keep it in the state it is in, I will just abuse it in multiplayer for fun, when I am not going solo. 

 

I do not really like using stuff that I think is going away though.

[Reckis]

12 hours ago, Gazz said:

"Awake" zombies are more attentive and can hear you at much longer ranges than sleepers.

An unsuppressed rifle can get you a lot of attention.

 

If it was just a rifle I wouldn't "whine", but even with three levels of stealth (sorry I don't remember the specific perk name atm) opening a cabinet, locker, or door draws an unreasonable amount of attention. As if my character can not learn how to do these things more quietly.

[meganoth]

4 minutes ago, Reckis said:

 

If it was just a rifle I wouldn't "whine", but even with three levels of stealth (sorry I don't remember the specific perk name atm) opening a cabinet, locker, or door draws an unreasonable amount of attention. As if my character can not learn how to do these things more quietly.

Did you turn off your helmetlight? What did your stealth meter say? If it was at 40-60 you have not really been stealthy

1 hour ago, pregnable said:

 

In solo it is useless, in multiplayer it is too strong. 

 

 

I do not have a problem with it, but I do not see the last rank of it sticking around.  Just curious about what the plans are for it. 

 

If they really want to keep it in the state it is in, I will just abuse it in multiplayer for fun, when I am not going solo. 

 

I do not really like using stuff that I think is going away though.

Please tell us how you will abuse it. Do you want to save the 3 perk points for attribute level 10? That is nice but to stay at that level you have to follow your charismatic leader around all day. Most players would not want to do that and pay the points instead.

 

At the time it would be most beneficial (right at the start of a nw game to get a forge right away for example) you don't have the attribute bonus anyway

 

[pregnable]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Please tell us how you will abuse it. Do you want to save the 3 perk points for attribute level 10? That is nice but to stay at that level you have to follow your charismatic leader around all day. Most players would not want to do that and pay the points instead.

 

At the time it would be most beneficial (right at the start of a nw game to get a forge right away for example) you don't have the attribute bonus anyway

 

 

Sure. 

 

If you are playing with just 1 other person it is pretty strong.  If you are playing with a number of other players it is OP. 

 

From what I remember, the range is actually pretty huge, like if you are clearing a 1 house and your friend is clearing the one across the street, they are in range.  That part is fine. 

 

First rank, 20 health and 20 stamina... pretty strong early game for however many friends you have.  This part is fine though. 

 

Second rank, 20% block and 20% melee damage... pretty strong as well, especially when mining or the team is rocking sledges.  This part is fine though. 

 

Third rank, Nearby allies 10% less damage from all sources, take half damage from bleeding and stop bleeding twice as fast... Depending on how the damage reduction stacks, the 10% could break the game.  I could see an immortal team of sledge users abusing this, heh.  Might need tweaking. 

 

Rank 4, allies get +1 to ALL ATTRIBUTES when near you... lolwut... if you play with any kind of a large group, this is probably stupid strong. 

 

Lets say you only want to max out 2 main attributes, and that is all you care about... not only are you getting 6 levels worth of skill points, but for any you are wearing +1 gear for, you are also bypassing rank 9, as well as 10, getting another perk point. 

 

If your team has a 3 or 4 attribute build they are going for, everyone but you is going to get there 9 to 14 levels faster than they would otherwise. 

 

Most attributes have something useful you can get with extra points.  Intel for double turrets and bandage healing.  Fortitude for damage reduction.  etc...

 

Probably too strong.  You can get your team too many levels ahead on attributes and possibly break damage reduction with the 10%

 

 

While playing solo it is completely useless atm heh... If it actually worked on turrets or something it would be cool though. 

 

 

I have said before, I would probably dump the attribute bonuses, and make the last rank something like better barter or daring adventurer.  Something to where it is still potentially useful for solo, or when not with a team. 

[Roland]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

opening a cabinet, locker, or door draws an unreasonable amount of attention.

 

That's because there is no WD-40 in the game. Your stealth level could be 50,000 but without WD-40 those hinges will wake the dead.

 

My Grandpa always used to say:

 

If it moves and it shouldn't -- Duct Tape

If it doesn't move and it should -- WD-40

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, pregnable said:

...

Third rank, Nearby allies 10% less damage from all sources, take half damage from bleeding and stop bleeding twice as fast... Depending on how the damage reduction stacks, the 10% could break the game.  I could see an immortal team of sledge users abusing this, heh.  Might need tweaking. 

 

"Depending on how the ..." 😎   Your "game-breaking" ability magically appears by your assuming that Gazz f** up royally and nobody noticed this even though this perk is in since A17.

 

Lets assume it just removes 10% of the damage after everything else has been added and removed (as an example) and it becomes a nice present for everyone but nothing too OP

 

4 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

Rank 4, allies get +1 to ALL ATTRIBUTES when near you... lolwut... if you play with any kind of a large group, this is probably stupid strong. 

 

Surely a large group won't stay together for long. If they do they waste a lot of their power because they constantly stand each other in the way. I already get this with 3 and definitely 4 players.

 

4 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

Lets say you only want to max out 2 main attributes, and that is all you care about... not only are you getting 6 levels worth of skill points, but for any you are wearing +1 gear for, you are also bypassing rank 9, as well as 10, getting another perk point. 

 

Everyone can and usually does save the points of the last rank because of +1 gear, so this is not something that can count as wonderful advantage of the perk.

 

And in this game (in vanilla) you are practically past any serious danger once you maxed out one attribute. Some people, especially builders, might play on for various reasons and incidentally level up other attributes, but that is just some sugar on top. You are already king of the hill at this point.

 

Remember TFP is only concerned about vanilla. I don't think TFP balances or cares much about anything that happens long after a player has one attribute filled up. They surely expect most players or groups of players to restart at that point.

 

 

[pregnable]

33 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

"Depending on how the ..." 😎   Your "game-breaking" ability magically appears by your assuming that Gazz f** up royally and nobody noticed this even though this perk is in since A17.

 

Lets assume it just removes 10% of the damage after everything else has been added and removed (as an example) and it becomes a nice present for everyone but nothing too OP

 

 

Surely a large group won't stay together for long. If they do they waste a lot of their power because they constantly stand each other in the way. I already get this with 3 and definitely 4 players.

 

 

Everyone can and usually does save the points of the last rank because of +1 gear, so this is not something that can count as wonderful advantage of the perk.

 

And in this game (in vanilla) you are practically past any serious danger once you maxed out one attribute. Some people, especially builders, might play on for various reasons and incidentally level up other attributes, but that is just some sugar on top. You are already king of the hill at this point.

 

Remember TFP is only concerned about vanilla. I don't think TFP balances or cares much about anything that happens long after a player has one attribute filled up. They surely expect most players or groups of players to restart at that point.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure you can already get to where you take very little damage with armor and other perks... depending on how the 10% stacks it could be OP, but kinda hard for me to test solo without doing a bunch of extra stuff.  It is not like it would be hard to miss something like that with all the other buffs in the game. 

 

The attribute bonus is the thing I do not really like though.  It is anywhere from 5 to 17 levels worth of perk points per player, but at the same time the perk is totally useless in solo. 

 

Being close to the player with the perk is not that big of a deal, because the radius was huge last time I checked.  I think it might be the same radius as the hunting perk. 

 

I believe part of the plan was that there will be npcs or companions or something that the perk will affect. 

 

 

I think the perk should be changed, but I do not really care if they change it or not, heh.  I do not mind being a Bard when I play MP if it is going to stay. 

 

I am sure some of the perks are going to get tweaked, and charismatic nature is likely to change, so I was just curious if there was any information about any potential perk changes. 

[skullpoker]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

Remember TFP is only concerned about vanilla. I don't think TFP balances or cares much about anything that happens long after a player has one attribute filled up. They surely expect most players or groups of players to restart at that point.

 

If that is the case, TFP should probably check out some MP servers. Many of them are beyond 1k days. They tend to only restart when their save is irreparably corrupted.

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

What?! You are too humble. What about the 47 millisecond optimization you mentioned earlier today?! 
 

You should show a video of that...oh wait...maybe you already did. I must have blinked!!

 

A 47 millisecond is on average up to a 2 fps gain.  So even if you are joking (of course you are) ,  that is a huge achievement depending on the situation. a 0.1% low 2fps gain often translates into a 50%+ noticeable smoother framerate. This game is full of those bumps, so huge deal. 

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

I am pretty sure you can already get to where you take very little damage with armor and other perks... depending on how the 10% stacks it could be OP, but kinda hard for me to test solo without doing a bunch of extra stuff.  It is not like it would be hard to miss something like that with all the other buffs in the game. 

 

The attribute bonus is the thing I do not really like though.  It is anywhere from 5 to 17 levels worth of perk points per player, but at the same time the perk is totally useless in solo. 

 

Being close to the player with the perk is not that big of a deal, because the radius was huge last time I checked.  I think it might be the same radius as the hunting perk. 

 

I believe part of the plan was that there will be npcs or companions or something that the perk will affect. 

 

 

I think the perk should be changed, but I do not really care if they change it or not, heh.  I do not mind being a Bard when I play MP if it is going to stay. 

 

I am sure some of the perks are going to get tweaked, and charismatic nature is likely to change, so I was just curious if there was any information about any potential perk changes. 

It's curious how the most observations on game balancing are made by someone who's playing 7D2D on the extreme scale of settings... 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, skullpoker said:

 

If that is the case, TFP should probably check out some MP servers. Many of them are beyond 1k days. They tend to only restart when their save is irreparably corrupted.

Why? TFP is aware that the game is used in a lot of contexts for which they don't and can't balance and optimize for.

They know that for example people play with more than 8 players or try 16k worlds. Or persistant worlds. But they stated repeatedly that that is outside their focus. And that moddability is there to allow people to do stuff outside the "vanilla range".

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[georege]

maybe some better bolt action rifle? like new gun with 5 round magazine not just hunting rifle

[meganoth]

46 minutes ago, georege said:

maybe some better bolt action rifle? like new gun with 5 round magazine not just hunting rifle

You mean an AK47 ? 😉

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

Maybe it's because I've been back playing Skyrim a bit in the last days... but has the character height been lowered a lot in the latest experimental?

I've got the impression to be always sneaking or limping even when I'm fully standing up. 

[Blake_]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Maybe it's because I've been back playing Skyrim a bit in the last days... but has the character height been lowered a lot in the latest experimental?

I've got the impression to be always sneaking or limping even when I'm fully standing up. 

Nah, you just noticed for the first time an engineering flaw that is a direct result from the blocky nature of the game. If they make the camera higher it would clip through doors and blocks when looking up (diagonal-up). So when you come back from a first person game you will 100% notice it. I think it is designed as a sneaky way to make us kiss the floor, lol.

[pregnable]

9 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

It's curious how the most observations on game balancing are made by someone who's playing 7D2D on the extreme scale of settings... 

 

Well I was playing Nomad with default settings not that long ago, but Charismatic Nature does not really need you to even play the game to see issues with it. 

 

The fact that it is useless for solo play makes it stick out as odd.  The bonus to attributes also seems like it was just thrown in as a place holder. 

 

I do not actually care if it gets changed, just pointing it out.  Just like I did with stealth... it seems off and should probably be changed, but I do not really care because I am not going to use it anyway. 

 

I have said the last rank should probably be something like better barter, so it is still useful as a solo. 

 

 

My favorite idea is still to have the last rank of charismatic nature extend the characters melee range, with a play on words about being able to reach out to people. 

 

Also kinda makes sense if you are playing as a Bard, heh. 

[Old Garyman]

Hi Fun Pimps,

 

I like to lock inventory slots how it is in the Subquakes mod Undead Legacy 2.2.84 for A19.3(b6).

 

Is anything like this planned for Alpha20?

 

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

Well I was playing Nomad with default settings not that long ago, but Charismatic Nature does not really need you to even play the game to see issues with it. 

 

The fact that it is useless for solo play makes it stick out as odd.  The bonus to attributes also seems like it was just thrown in as a place holder. 

 

I do not actually care if it gets changed, just pointing it out.  Just like I did with stealth... it seems off and should probably be changed, but I do not really care because I am not going to use it anyway. 

 

I have said the last rank should probably be something like better barter, so it is still useful as a solo. 

 

 

My favorite idea is still to have the last rank of charismatic nature extend the characters melee range, with a play on words about being able to reach out to people. 

 

Also kinda makes sense if you are playing as a Bard, heh. 

I actually agree on Charismatic Nature, I posted something along the lines a couple of months back IIRC.

My idea, at the time, was to use it also to help with animal taming (yes, it was still a possibility back then), so it would make sense and be used both in SP and MP.

 

But that's all water under the bridge now.

[Jost Amman]

43 minutes ago, wolfbain5 said:

can I have an official response to how far away from a volume you can be before triggering spawns? not just them showing up, but also them being calculated in?

Why?

[BFT2020]

20 hours ago, Roland said:

 

That's because there is no WD-40 in the game. Your stealth level could be 50,000 but without WD-40 those hinges will wake the dead.

 

My Grandpa always used to say:

 

If it moves and it shouldn't -- Duct Tape

If it doesn't move and it should -- WD-40

For me, it was:

 

You only need 3 things in your tool box;  A hammer, a roll of duct tape, and a welding torch.  If those don't work, you need a bigger hammer.

[SnowDog1942]

18 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Why?

Why ask why?

[Jost Amman]

6 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Why ask why?

It's a bit presumptuous IMO that people keep asking for an official response about everything related to how the game works "behind the scenes". You're lucky I'm not TFP, not only because the game would now be a total and utter mess (since I'm no programmer), but also because I'd be very secretive about how the internal workings of the game... well, work. I think most people are, what was that word?... "Meta gaming" the game. That's why we have cheese bases and infinite loops, people know too much about how the game works, and they exploit every tiny bit of this knowledge. But don't worry, after the CCP takes over TFP this problem will be over!