A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[ShellHead]

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, they weren’t saying that it’s bad that melee doesn’t 1-shot on high difficulties. They were saying that once you got to the point where melee doesn’t just 1-shot across the board the differences in weapon effectiveness became far more prominent. They could’ve been less hostile about it but the point is legitimate, there are clear balance issues between the various melee weapons. Clubs, Knuckles, and to a lesser extent Sledgehammers are all decidedly outperforming Spears, Knives, and Batons even given the Spear’s reach, Knife’s slow and damage over time, and Baton’s stuns. 

When everything can 1-shot, differences don’t matter but the difference between 1 and 2-shotting is huge.

[Khalagar]

Perhaps difficulty level is why I have such a different stance than most people do when it comes to the int tree. I play on the second hardest difficulty and stuff like the stun baton and junk turrets are cool but are kind of a liability compared to just using a shotgun and club. Junk Sledges are amazing though

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Forgotten Memes said:

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.

 

But what about those people who like asymmetrical design and appreciate that there is a difference between the weaponry and that they all don't "balance" to the same exact experience. Knives don't do as much direct damage as sledge hammers but they cause bleed. Stun batons shock and stun. It is a different experience that offers a different kind of challenge than sledgehammers. Changing everything so that they are symmetrically balanced across the board definitely won't make the game better for everyone. I guess it will make the game better for you.

 

If the "weak" weapons are not your cup of tea then don't use them. Stick to the ones that do direct massive damage and have fun your way. If you want to do a pure intellect build but feel it is completely unbalanced for high difficulty settings then lower the difficulty setting to the point where you can enjoy a pure intelligence build. If you can't enjoy using a stun baton or knife or a spear at any level of difficulty because you know there is a more effective alternative you could be using instead and you just can't ignore the siren call of maximum efficiency, then you've probably explored the entire gamespace that this game can offer you.

 

57 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

Perhaps difficulty level is why I have such a different stance than most people do when it comes to the int tree. I play on the second hardest difficulty and stuff like the stun baton and junk turrets are cool but are kind of a liability compared to just using a shotgun and club. Junk Sledges are amazing though

 

No doubt. Turn down the difficulty when playing pure intellect if it feels impossible to pull off at your current difficulty. With your skill level there must be a setting at some level that will feel challenging but not impossible so you can play pure intellect and feel that you can be successful.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Khalagar]

Int is still pretty easy, junk sledges are literal easy mode after all. It's more just that some parts of it (basically everything but the sledges) are really mediocre like stun baton and the early game void

Edited June 16, 2021 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

Balanced does not mean everything does the same thing. It just means that everything has an equivalent power allocation, which can include non-direct damage statistics. The Stun Baton’s electrocution effect is as much a allocation of power as the Sledgehammer’s damage per hit or the Knife’s high attack speed or the Knuckles low stamina costs. A Stun Baton doing the same amount of damage as a Sledgehammer would be incredibly unbalanced because the Baton has faster attack speed, lower stamina costs, and the electrocution effect. And adding the electrocution effect to the Sledge would also be unbalanced because the high damage output and better reach (plus the high block damage but due to the extremely situational nature of that benefit, it has a lower equivalent value).

No weapon should be “weak” (which is to say a lower equivalent power allocation) but any weapon can, and many should, have low damage. 

 

[7daystodierocks]

2 hours ago, Forgotten Memes said:

 

Apparently reading comprehension isn't taught in schools anymore.  I never said it was too hard at higher difficulty, just that it more clearly reveals the imbalance.  Imbalance which also exists on easier difficulties.   

 

You playing on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

"This game is balanced."

 

Me playing on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

"What's this, some weapons are far, far more effective than others?  Perhaps the devs should make adjustments."

 

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.

while i do semi agree with OPs point i also disagree with OP as yes scavenger difficulty is too easy and insane is bullet sponge hell altho i do feel TFP do need to do a bit of tweaking on several different things i wont go into detail on those things. I will say i think i found a nice median difficulty that isnt to easy and not to hard is nomad difficulty which i believe is 1 above the default difficulty setting if anyone disagrees please feel free to explain

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Forgotten Memes said:

 

Apparently reading comprehension isn't taught in schools anymore.  I never said it was too hard at higher difficulty, just that it more clearly reveals the imbalance.  Imbalance which also exists on easier difficulties.   

 

You playing on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

"This game is balanced."

 

Me playing on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

"What's this, some weapons are far, far more effective than others?  Perhaps the devs should make adjustments."

 

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.

 

mellodasreh might be misinterpreting your reply to Gazz because Gazz didn't say the weapons were balanced, he said the weapons were all OP.

 

Now Gazz's statement can't be universally true because you can always find someone so bad at playing reaction-based games that he would die by the dozens, but I assume Gazz is looking here at a typical gamer. And watching a few other players of the game I would say they more often die from hunger or walking into their own traps or random mines than getting killed by zombies in the early game. If it weren't for running zombies at night early game would probably(?) be seen as too easy by most players.

 

Now I'm not so sure the baton is really OP because it simply protects you well in the easy case with only one zombie but is extraordinally weak against multiple zombies (i.e. when it would be really important). Same goes for the knife.

 

I don't dispute that the weapons are not balanced. But the question is whether TFP wants to balance the weapons to be equal or wants to balance the whole attributes to be equal. AFAIK TFP has said a few times that they balance the attributes and not individual perks, and that probably includes the weapons.

 

That means INTs weapons should be weaker, just like a healer in an RPG is weaker than a fighter in pure combat abilities.

 

 

[sillls]

• New Gas Station (shown to reveal Restore Power Quest?  What's that about? 

[MechanicalLens]

6 minutes ago, sillls said:

• New Gas Station (shown to reveal Restore Power Quest?  What's that about? 

 

The restore power quest will be a new type of trader quest where you must make your way through a darkened POI and switch on the generator(s) to restore the electricity. We might get dual quests with this one, ie Restore Power/Clear or Restore Power/Fetch.

As for the gas station, that was the POI Lathan (aka Prime) showed off the prototype for this quest at in the first dev stream.

[Matt115]

3 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

The restore power quest will be a new type of trader quest where you must make your way through a darkened POI and switch on the generator(s) to restore the electricity. We might get dual quests with this one, ie Restore Power/Clear or Restore Power/Fetch.

As for the gas station, that was the POI Lathan (aka Prime) showed off the prototype for this quest at in the first dev stream.

And gas station was example

[BFT2020]

10 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Perhaps difficulty level is why I have such a different stance than most people do when it comes to the int tree. I play on the second hardest difficulty and stuff like the stun baton and junk turrets are cool but are kind of a liability compared to just using a shotgun and club. Junk Sledges are amazing though

I got to day 70 with an INT build playing vanilla 7D2D at Survivalist, zombies run during day.  I never thought of those weapons as being a liability, but I also don't go into the game wishing they would be as OP as the max perked Shotgun or the max perked club.  But then again, I also change my tactics.  If I am going as a strength build, sure I will wade into that wandering horde club swinging.  As an INT build, it is all about pulling one at a time towards me.  With my knife build, it is all about getting making use of bleed stacks and switching up my attacks so I am getting as many zombies bleeding at the same time.

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Now I'm not so sure the baton is really OP because it simply protects you well in the easy case with only one zombie but is extraordinally weak against multiple zombies (i.e. when it would be really important). Same goes for the knife.

That's when you get the heck out of there, regroup, and come up with a better plan.  Have I died to a group of zombies with a knife or a stun baton?  Sure.  Why did I die?  Because I let myself get pinned in a POI or was not paying attention.  I love the fact that I can't play the same way with a knife or a stun baton as I can play with the club.  That's what gives a challenge.  Knowing that you are not the same "warrior" with the stun baton or knife as you are with the club.  Sure they can make it so everything is the same, but at that point, why have different melee weapons at all?

 

I agree with all that you are saying, btw

9 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Int is still pretty easy, junk sledges are literal easy mode after all. It's more just that some parts of it (basically everything but the sledges) are really mediocre like stun baton and the early game void

Pipe baton will address the early game void.  Now perking into the Baton spec will benefit an INT only player, instead of having to use an un-perked club or knife until you can either find the parts to craft one or a stun baton at the trader / loot container.

[hiemfire]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

Stun baton is able to stun lock any single zombie for an indefinite time.

Oh, you're basing it off of having found everything that buffs it and having fully perked into it...

[sillls]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

The restore power quest will be a new type of trader quest where you must make your way through a darkened POI and switch on the generator(s) to restore the electricity. We might get dual quests with this one, ie Restore Power/Clear or Restore Power/Fetch.

As for the gas station, that was the POI Lathan (aka Prime) showed off the prototype for this quest at in the first dev stream.

Thanks.  Sounds more like a chain quest. I wonder what TFP's plan to do with that?  

Would you have a link to this stream from Prime? 

Edited June 16, 2021 by sillls (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

2 minutes ago, sillls said:

Thanks.  Sounds more like a chain quest. I wonder what TFP's plan to do with that?  

Would you have a link to this stream from Prime? 

 

Go to the front page and look at the very top. All TFP streams are located there.

[sillls]

5 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Go to the front page and look at the very top. All TFP streams are located there.

Thanks 

[sillls]

I just saw Madmole talk about the outfits and the final bonus's for each outfit. 

 

Why not throw in a twist to it. Bonus's and final bonus's for mix and match outfits? 

 

The player puts on a combo of clothing and that can produce an unexpected bonus. Like combining a  miners helmet with a scavenger outfit may help by getting more loot due to seeing better or something like that. 

[MechanicalLens]

I would be fine with it if they increased it to five slots instead of the four they had proposed. Headpiece, chest piece, gloves, leg piece, and boots.

 

On a side note, I've sprained my wrist again so I can't play 7D2D. RIP.

[dcsobral]

1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

I would be fine with it if they increased it to five slots instead of the four they had proposed. Headpiece, chest piece, gloves, leg piece, and boots.

 

On a side note, I've sprained my wrist again so I can't play 7D2D. RIP.

Oooh, that's tough! Splints won't help, but Health Bars will speed up recovery. Points in Healing Factor do so as well. Nope, I have no idea on how to do these things IRL.

[MechanicalLens]

Just now, dcsobral said:

Oooh, that's tough! Splints won't help, but Health Bars will speed up recovery. Points in Healing Factor do so as well. Nope, I have no idea on how to do these things IRL.

 

Nothing I can do other than to go AFK for about 2-3 months.

[sillls]

Really glad that Random Gen and water is being worked on.  

I would like RG but when I tried it looked like a patchwork of biomes, roads and POI's all smashed together in places. 

But I haven't tried it in a while so.  

[dcsobral]

16 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

I would be fine with it if they increased it to five slots instead of the four they had proposed. Headpiece, chest piece, gloves, leg piece, and boots.

 

On a side note, I've sprained my wrist again so I can't play 7D2D. RIP.

Or you could use Tobii to aim and change direction with eye tracking.

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, dcsobral said:

Or you could use Tobii to aim and change direction with eye tracking.

 

I might just eat some broken glass and respawn as fresh as a bee.

[sillls]

1.  One mod that I would like to see for vehicles is adding a horn.  I could use that to distract and pull zombie's with it.  

 

 

2.  Has anyone else seen the Mutated super corn? 

 

I wish that there was a special mission to retrieve that for a trader and even grow it. Now that would be a good quest. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by sillls (see edit history)

[dcsobral]

14 minutes ago, sillls said:

I just saw the stream of Prime and Madmole talking about the quest  Restoring power to the gas station. It's nice to see a change from all the fetch quest but why restore power? 

What would that do? Open a treasure vault?  A workshop? Setting up a colony? 

I think it's good but not a very good end goal. 

Get better prices! 😂

[sillls]

Missions that upgrade the traders post would be good. Work stations, defense tower, radio, loot room even a place to spend the night.

Rescue people would be a good quest. Having them work at the traders post would be cool. That way you have more than a trader to interact with. Maybe even some extra trading or missions on the side from these new NPC's.