A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[BFT2020]

11 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Devs need to do 1 attribute only focused playthroughs lol

 

I'm curious if any devs have actually done an Int build that tries to use only int weapons primarily. You basically couldn't even do it atm since you need 90% of the strength tree to even function because of the insanely high iron demands, but even if you do int + all the mining and utility strength perks, int is still in such a wonky place as always since it doesn't have a t3 weapon and requires way more investment to use than other weapon types

Simply not true.  You don't need 90% of the strength tree to even function.  I play INT focus builds and the only strength Perks I really do at the beginning are the first level tools, motherlode, sex rex, and master chef (if I haven't found some of the basic recipes by the first few days).

 

There are some cases where the higher levels in strength are helpful.  If you are building a massive base and need a lot of resources, then yes, going into the strength tree is very very beneficial.  However, that is not be driven by the INT tree; that is being driven by your base plan.

 

With my INT builds, I will at most spend one perk into the basic firearm perks on the various trees.  Eventually I will expand further in those trees, but that is when I maxed out the INT tree and purchased all the perks I wanted. 

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

You hear faint footsteps behind you. You get goosebumps. You hear and feel someone or something breathing down the back of your neck. You swing around with your club and... nothing's there. Must have been the wind, right? Suddenly, you realize your pistol is gone from its holster. You turn to your right and you see the grotesque remains of a person, somehow remaining bipedal, aiming right down the iron sights of your stolen firearm.

 

They are learning.  

that's sound like zombies from stalker XD

[sillls]

28 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

you get 1 free non descriptive answer from me today... yes

(and seeings how i say that... some sneaky dev will change it just for kicks)

Well I haven't. Where is my answer? Hmm?  😉

When are we going to get some new friendly NPC's? 

[Matt115]

3 minutes ago, sillls said:

Well I haven't. Where is my answer? Hmm?  😉

When are we going to get some new friendly NPC's? 

when i get more zombie variants xd

honestly why in game focused on zombie , zombies get so little attention xd

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

Which seems appropriate for a tier3 "weapon"

So is the drone actually still being considered INT’s T3 turret as opposed to a new device? That certainly would be unique and would pair well with the physician perk but i’m not sure how it would interact with the turret perk. If you got that info directly from TFP, i’m down with it but if not i wouldn’t be certain that the drone is still a part of the turret line.

[ShellHead]

3 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Simply not true.  You don't need 90% of the strength tree to even function.  I play INT focus builds and the only strength Perks I really do at the beginning are the first level tools, motherlode, sex rex, and master chef (if I haven't found some of the basic recipes by the first few days).

 

There are some cases where the higher levels in strength are helpful.  If you are building a massive base and need a lot of resources, then yes, going into the strength tree is very very beneficial.  However, that is not be driven by the INT tree; that is being driven by your base plan.

 

With my INT builds, I will at most spend one perk into the basic firearm perks on the various trees.  Eventually I will expand further in those trees, but that is when I maxed out the INT tree and purchased all the perks I wanted. 

Except you’re using off-attribute weapons and khalagar is trying to use exclusively INT weapons, the raw iron consumption from using the turrets as your primary ranged weapon is massive and requires more mining perks to sustain. The core issue here is whether or not INT needing to go off-perk to be effective is balanced/acceptable/etc and why that is or isn’t the case. 

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, Morloc said:

Are these drones going to function indoors?

I would guess they're trying to make it useful also indoors, but it's one of the main reasons they postponed it several times.

It's like with all pets/sidekicks/followers in any open world rpg.

They easily get stuck behind corners/walls/doors/stairs/... which is annoying when you often have to return and jump/dodge around to "help" that thing come loose.

And just making it teleport back to you whenever it got wedged somewhere again...well it just does look stupid and buggy when that happens too often, would kill the fun of it.

So getting that straight might be much harder to reach than expected, especially in that destructable 3D environment, where you often break open your own paths.

You do want to progress, and not care about "will my drone be able to follow me or will it get stuck?"

Poor guy working on that, I really hope he/she makes it happen.

[BFT2020]

31 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

Except you’re using off-attribute weapons and khalagar is trying to use exclusively INT weapons, the raw iron consumption from using the turrets as your primary ranged weapon is massive and requires more mining perks to sustain. The core issue here is whether or not INT needing to go off-perk to be effective is balanced/acceptable/etc and why that is or isn’t the case. 

And that is Khalagar's choice to only use exclusively INT weapons.......I don't think any other exclusive tree (Strength, Perception, Agility) builds limit themselves only to the weapons in that tree.  I don't see Strength builds not using pistols, rifles, machine guns.  I don't see Perception trees only using sniper rifles or agility builds only using pistols and bows.

 

There is nothing saying that you cannot play this way.  Treat any non-attribute weapon as non grata and just sell it to the traders (or better yet, refuse to pick them up).  But it is not TFP's responsibility to balance the game for this particular gameplay if you purposely define your game style in such a way that breaks the game.

[ShellHead]

34 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

And that is Khalagar's choice to only use exclusively INT weapons.......I don't think any other exclusive tree (Strength, Perception, Agility) builds limit themselves only to the weapons in that tree.  I don't see Strength builds not using pistols, rifles, machine guns.  I don't see Perception trees only using sniper rifles or agility builds only using pistols and bows.

 

There is nothing saying that you cannot play this way.  Treat any non-attribute weapon as non grata and just sell it to the traders (or better yet, refuse to pick them up).  But it is not TFP's responsibility to balance the game for this particular gameplay if you purposely define your game style in such a way that breaks the game.

While i agree that TFP has no obligation to balance around niche playstyles, i’m not sure that’s a completely fair characterization of an on-perk INT build.

Each other attribute can go exclusively with its own gear and go off-perk to cover weaknesses, the question is are the weaknesses INT can cover with off-perk weapons substantially larger and more numerous than what other attributes have to deal with, taking into account the fact INT is not a combat attribute?

PER can go exclusively rifle+spear and center their playstyle around maximizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses and do well in pretty much any sphere of play, As can AGI with a knife+9mm/.44 build. Can INT go baton+turrets and do the same while not being a torturous experience, harder than other attributes in terms of combat is fine because they have huge advantages in progression, but still viable (which is to say not massively wasteful of resources) and fun to play for it’s own sake not just because it’s the hardest way to play? 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, ShellHead said:

So is the drone actually still being considered INT’s T3 turret as opposed to a new device? That certainly would be unique and would pair well with the physician perk but i’m not sure how it would interact with the turret perk. If you got that info directly from TFP, i’m down with it but if not i wouldn’t be certain that the drone is still a part of the turret line.

 

The drone being tier3 is the last available info. Could they have changed it ? Yes, absolutely.

 

Is that info directly from TFP? I'm pretty sure it was but it was said months ago. In the meantime millions of chemical processes happened in the memory cells of my brain making me imagining a lot of what I seem to be remembering.

 

At the moment the turret line has only two members, and tier0 and tier3 is missing. The drone was explicitely created to fill the tier3 hole there (AFAIK), without any alternative in sight why would they not plug that hole with it ?

 

The only change I could imagine happening behind the curtains would be that shooty turret and drone switched places (tier 2 and tier3). But I don't think this is likely. Just like the flying gyro is the top of the line vehicle the flying drone will probably be the top of the line companion. Because it looks like the most advanced tech and because of balance since the INT player can't wait for the shooty turret until endgame, he needs the shooty turret much earlier

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

12 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

or even just reacting to posts (excluding faatal).

To be frank, why would you want any more than Faatal answering? Sure better him that Joel that typically actually knows very little about the behind the scenes stuff. I want to hear from the man doing the work.... Faatal, Kinyaju etc. Gazz posts good info when it is a  question in his area too.

 

Just because the Devs aren't as active in here I take as a good sign. They're doing more important things. 90% of the questions asked in here either are repeats or asking for info about stuff that isn't coded yet so can't be answered accurately anyway.

29 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

While i agree that TFP has no obligation to balance around niche playstyles, i’m not sure that’s a completely fair characterization of an on-perk INT build.

Each other attribute can go exclusively with its own gear and go off-perk to cover weaknesses, the question is are the weaknesses INT can cover with off-perk weapons substantially larger and more numerous than what other attributes have to deal with, taking into account the fact INT is not a combat attribute?

PER can go exclusively rifle+spear and center their playstyle around maximizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses and do well in pretty much any sphere of play, As can AGI with a knife+9mm/.44 build. Can INT go baton+turrets and do the same while not being a torturous experience, harder than other attributes in terms of combat is fine because they have huge advantages in progression, but still viable (which is to say not massively wasteful of resources) and fun to play for it’s own sake not just because it’s the hardest way to play? 

I used your post just as an example to all the similar idea about how bad Int is as a tree. Here's a link to a playlist from a friend of mine of an Int only build and combat isn't even close to being an issue. matter of fact it shows Int being damn near Op in combat.

 

 

[ShellHead]

Well, given that both the junk sledge and robotic turret have the capability to do damage, it would be extremely odd to make the T3 option not have that capability, which would force INT players to use their T2 for ranged damage. Additionally how would the turret perk work with the non-combat drone? The damage boost would be completely invalid with it and the attack speed boost would have to be effectively changed to a use speed buff so the drone could do things faster which i’m not sure how that would look from the programming end of things.

Just seems like it would go against the idea of smoothing gear progression that they have for A20.

Edited June 15, 2021 by ShellHead
Adding a point (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

28 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

I used your post just as an example to all the similar idea about how bad Int is as a tree. Here's a link to a playlist from a friend of mine of an Int only build and combat isn't even close to being an issue. matter of fact it shows Int being damn near Op in combat.

 

 

point of clarification: i’m not saying INT is bad, far from it, just that the gear is weak.
I skimmed a couple of the videos, looking for combat segments that weren’t blood moons because base defense is where INT is the undisputed king, and I wouldn’t describe anything i saw as being borderline OP. The knockdown from the junk sledges were clearly very useful as was the baton’s stun, but they had to rely pretty exclusively on headshots and the sledge wasn’t really adding a lot of output. Combat isn’t horrific but was also clearly much weaker than if they’d used other weapons, which is the center of the argument. Thanks for adding this to the conversation though, it adds a useful basis of information!

Edited June 15, 2021 by ShellHead (see edit history)

[meganoth]

30 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

While i agree that TFP has no obligation to balance around niche playstyles, i’m not sure that’s a completely fair characterization of an on-perk INT build.

Each other attribute can go exclusively with its own gear and go off-perk to cover weaknesses, the question is are the weaknesses INT can cover with off-perk weapons substantially larger and more numerous than what other attributes have to deal with, taking into account the fact INT is not a combat attribute?

PER can go exclusively rifle+spear and center their playstyle around maximizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses and do well in pretty much any sphere of play, As can AGI with a knife+9mm/.44 build. Can INT go baton+turrets and do the same while not being a torturous experience, harder than other attributes in terms of combat is fine because they have huge advantages in progression, but still viable (which is to say not massively wasteful of resources) and fun to play for it’s own sake not just because it’s the hardest way to play? 

 

If TFP wants INT to be the attribute that is designed to use weapons from other attributes and they balance it that way, then you will obviously have disadvantages if you play pure INT.

 

This is then surely an asymmetric design of the attributes and if you have OCD you might have problems with that. But there is no rule that says make all attributes uniform in how they should work. It is even an advantage for replayability if you have an attribute with an unusual modus operandi.

 

Can you play the game pure INT. Sure you can. Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting. Just takes more time, but since the zombies auto-level with your progress, their progress will be slow as well. And if you only use stun baton you obviously don't need the massive amounts of scrap iron, so this build will work as a stun baton+turret aka INT build as well.

 

 

[hiemfire]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting.

Knife, probably. Stun Baton? Extremely doubtful even after the addition of the tier 1 baton in A20.

[meganoth]

41 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

Well, given that both the junk sledge and robotic turret have the capability to do damage, it would be extremely odd to make the T3 option not have that capability, which would force INT players to use their T2 for ranged damage. Additionally how would the turret perk work with the non-combat drone? The damage boost would be completely invalid with it and the attack speed boost would have to be effectively changed to a use speed buff so the drone could do things faster which i’m not sure how that would look from the programming end of things.

Just seems like it would go against the idea of smoothing gear progression that they have for A20.

 

INT level 2 currently says: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets"

 

In A20 it might say: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets. Your drone will heal you 10% faster"

 

I really don't know what progression the drone will get from perk and attribute, I just made a wild guess above. There are a few possibilites.

 

EDIT: Ah sorry, you said perk, not attribute. The same goes for the perk though. The drone has a few parameters like speed, healing ability, carrying ability, durability... Some of them will be influenced by attribute, some by perk, some by mods.

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

13 hours ago, hiemfire said:

It might help better sell how they intend it to be used if the UI for the Attributes and Perks was not tabbed in the same manner as a MMORPG's class specialization system.

 

Let me rephrase... They intend for players to play it however they want whether that is mixed or singular--whatever strikes the player's fancy. They communicate this by not graying out any options once you have made a choice. You are never stopped from choosing whatever perks you wish to choose. So a player may mix it up or they can play intelligence purely if they want. It sounds like some people don't want to play intelligence purely as it has been designed. This is perfectly fine. They can mix it. Others do like to play intelligence purely and they enjoy the challenge that it brings which is different than playing a game using pure strength or pure fortitude or pure agility or pure perception.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that playing a pure intelligence game would be more challenging than other pure builds. But so what? Its nice to have a challenge if you want to choose that and intelligence is a great build to mix with one of the others.

 

 

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting.

 

When we say stun baton only are we saying that you cannot use any other weapon at all or just that you won't perk into any other weapon and you will only perk into the stun baton? What about before you find a stun baton? Do you just run away or use your fists or can you use whatever you have until you find a stun baton but then from then on you can only ever use a stun baton?

 

What's the exact challenge here?

[Forgotten Memes]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, Gazz said:

Not that I know.

 

Everyone who actually uses melee weapons can tell you that they are seriously OP already. Heh

I'm guessing you've never played on insane/permadeath.  Imbalances are far less noticeable on easy mode.

 

It's a very different game when a power attacks no longer 1 shot everything and death is meaningful.

[meganoth]

29 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Knife, probably. Stun Baton? Extremely doubtful even after the addition of the tier 1 baton in A20.

 

Stun baton is able to stun lock any single zombie for an indefinite time. Get more than one zombie, run until only one follows you or (while on a quest) climb up to a defensible position and whack at them. Defensible position can often be just a ladder 3 blocks up on a wall (the wall should not be a house wall reachable from inside though).

 

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

When we say stun baton only are we saying that you cannot use any other weapon at all or just that you won't perk into any other weapon and you will only perk into the stun baton? What about before you find a stun baton? Do you just run away or use your fists or can you use whatever you have until you find a stun baton but then from then on you can only ever use a stun baton?

 

What's the exact challenge here?

 

I meant stun baton only, no wasting of any ammo. But that includes the tier0 baton.

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

46 minutes ago, meganoth said:

If TFP wants INT to be the attribute that is designed to use weapons from other attributes and they balance it that way, then you will obviously have disadvantages if you play pure INT.

Absolutely, if that’s what they have intended.

have they said that somewhere? I’m cool with that being the case if so

[ShellHead]

38 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

INT level 2 currently says: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets"

 

In A20 it might say: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets. Your drone will heal you 10% faster"

 

I really don't know what progression the drone will get from perk and attribute, I just made a wild guess above. There are a few possibilites.

 

EDIT: Ah sorry, you said perk, not attribute. The same goes for the perk though. The drone has a few parameters like speed, healing ability, carrying ability, durability... Some of them will be influenced by attribute, some by perk, some by mods.

 

Could very well, so as it stands we won’t know if the drone has been moved from INT’s T3 option or if the turret perk / attribute boost has been changed to accommodate the non-combat nature of the drone until either a statement from the devs or A20 going public.

[meganoth]

5 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

Absolutely, if that’s what they have intended.

have they said that somewhere? I’m cool with that being the case if so

Hard to say. When for example Gazz tells you something about the game you never know how serious he is, and most of the time he is not 😉. I'm also not sure if my conviction comes from TFP or from infering this from looking at INT and noting the advantages myself.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

Absolutely fair, i’m speaking from my own inferences as well

[meilodasreh]

52 minutes ago, Forgotten Memes said:

I'm guessing you've never played on insane/permadeath.  Imbalances are far less noticeable on easy mode.

 

It's a very different game when a power attacks no longer 1 shot everything and death is meaningful.

Plays on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

“Meh...boring I can easily kill everything“

 

plays on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

“what is this, I can‘t one-hit everything. Game is badly balanced. Weapon needs to be buffed“

 

Pro tip: there‘s a secret weapon damage buff function hidden in the main menu. It‘s called „difficulty level“ ;-)

[Forgotten Memes]

4 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Pro tip: there‘s a secret weapon damage buff function hidden in the main menu. It‘s called „difficulty level“ 😉

 

Apparently reading comprehension isn't taught in schools anymore.  I never said it was too hard at higher difficulty, just that it more clearly reveals the imbalance.  Imbalance which also exists on easier difficulties.   

 

You playing on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

"This game is balanced."

 

Me playing on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

"What's this, some weapons are far, far more effective than others?  Perhaps the devs should make adjustments."

 

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.