A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, Khalagar said:

 

That is the point of the conversation, yes. If you are making a build focused on one attribute (like most people do when not playing to day nine thousand) the other attributes can all stand on their own besides int.

 

There's no argument to be made on why each attribute shouldn't have some kind of self contained build that's viable on it's own even if it's not optimal. The actual min max optimal build is pretty much undeniably Auto Shottie + Club + Junk Sledges + unperked explosives. But there are many other less sweaty min max  builds that are completely viable by focusing only on one attribute, like auto shottie + club alone is already extremely solid, or M60 + fists etc works great. Dual junk turrets + baton and SMG + machete are probably the least viable, at least sniper and spear get explosives to off set how bad those two weapons are

 

This is 7 Days To Die, not Night Of The Dead. We don't build mega bases filled with traps and expect them to do all of the work for us. If Intellect was equal to the other builds in terms of raw power on its own, all current balance regarding weaponry would be thrown out the window. Intellect is designed to support other builds as far as I see it, or vice versa.

[enragedcamel]

So is there an ETA for this? I ask because the plan after the last major update was to have smaller content updates because the devs realized having six plus months between each update wasn't ideal.

[MechanicalLens]

5 minutes ago, enragedcamel said:

So is there an ETA for this? I ask because the plan after the last major update was to have smaller content updates because the devs realized having six plus months between each update wasn't ideal.

 

They've been saying that for years. 😜 A20 won't be out for months.

[Roland]

I'm not talking about the stun baton. I'm talking about the pipe baton which is one of the new primitive pipe weapons coming in A20. 

 

3 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

and maybe treat the blunderbuss ammo the same .just throwing that out there.

 

The blunderbuss and its ammo are coming to an end with A19. It might show up in a future game but the pipe shotgun will replace it in A20 and uses regular shotgun shells.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'm not talking about the stun baton. I'm talking about the pipe baton which is one of the new primitive pipe weapons coming in A20. 

 

 

The blunderbuss and its ammo are coming to an end with A19. It might show up in a future game but the pipe shotgun will replace it in A20 and uses regular shotgun shells.

 

So how are you finding traders in A20? Do their quest rewards seem balanced? Not asking for details, just general feedback. Also, I believe it was Madmole who said that traders will have slightly better stock than your current lootstage level can give you in loot. If this is the case, does this adjust depending on what biome you're in? (ie Will Trader Joel in the forest biome have "inferior stock" compared to Trader Joel in the wasteland?)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

I mean, this just loops back to the issue of "Intellect doesn't have an endgame weapon" then where it's the only perk line that isn't balanced to stand on it's own as a fleshed out build.

 

I don't really understand the logic of why Int isn't supposed to be a full build. Yes you can use the two turrets + hold a gun too if you want to spend the points and resources to do so. . . and doing that should definitely beat out someone who spent far less resources to do the same thing

 

Easy made up example comparison (not real numbers)

 

Fully perked Autoshotgun with all mods vs horde = Lets say 20 perk points invested and 50 shotgun shells

 

Fully perked Dual junk turrets vs horde = 20 perk points +  thousands of junk ammo and a dead player

 

Fully perked dual junk turrets + unperked auto shottie vs horde = 20 perk points + thousands of junk ammo + probably still 30 or more shotgun shells

 

Hyperbole doesn't help your argument. I have played INT in my last game and it was great. When attacked by a few zombies I could "play" with one of them while the turrets removed the rest. I didn't feel underpowered. At all. Not like Perception does. INT also has the only tier 1 weapon that is useful in end game horde nights. It offers the most variable gameplay you can find in the game. It actually is my second favorite build after agility.

 

Now possibly my impression of INT is wrong, after all it is a subjective. Like yours I guess.

 

Quote

 

ATM Junk turrets drain way more resources for less payoff and relies on dipping into other builds

 

There is no rule that non-specced weapons are not allowed in your hand. If you feel somehow "dirty" or uncool with a nonspecced weapon in hand or feel the need to handicap yourself because of a self-invented principle then accept the consequences or mod the game.

 

Quote

 

If you don't want Junk Turrets to equal a real gun, then Int . . . needs a real gun that stands on it own end game.The drone was stated to not be offense oriented, and no dev has explained what is going to balance the drone to stop it from being used by every other build who *doesn't* have to sacrifice 50% of their damage to use it like an Int build does by giving up a turret slot to use it

 

We don't know what the drone will bring to the table.  But even if the drone were useless, INT can't get worse because of it, nobody really is forced to use it. And even if the drone were overpowered it might not be unspecced. Instead of sounding the doom clock now we could simply wait for its appearance and test it.

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

I mean, yeah basically? Or at least enough of it to where the player can contribute a bit with melee and get by. Their only real use or role is basically just as an afk type defense weapon, which a lot of players like myself love. I'm always a summoner in games, I love being able to summon an army to fight for me while I walk around looting, even though it's definitely never the best meta build, it's good when it's at least viable and stands on it's own as "functional but boring to many"

 

That's literally their only niche, clearing rooms and roaming hordes and stuff while the player mines or is off looting.

 

If that's not the intended use of them . . . then what is? There seems to be a pretty big disconnect between dev logic and player expectations here lol

 

 

 

 "player expectation"?  Are you speaking for all or lots of players? Or just you?

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

I have a question : there is idea about new "versions" of zombies like : another type of doctor , riot police , child zombie or just diffrent clothes color for zombies?

Maybe the zombies can be streamlined into 3 versions, because 3 is magic, and more is too complex.  

 

Normal zombie, fat zombie (slow/strong), and skinny zombie (fast/weak).  
 

 

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

I don't really understand the logic of why Int isn't supposed to be a full build. Yes you can use the two turrets + hold a gun too if you want to spend the points and resources to do so. . . and doing that should definitely beat out someone who spent far less resources to do the same thing

 

Its because of how you are defining a full build. You seem to be defining a build solely by what you spend points in. So the fact that you could find a purple tier auto shotty and use that alongside your turrets doesn't count to you as being part of the intellect build because you are narrowly defining the build as only what you spend points in. Logically, the intellect build includes all unperked weapons no matter what weapon type they are-- the advantage being that when using those weapons in tandem with the turrets you have a great advantage over what the game can throw at you. No other build lets you use other weapons in tandem with the weapons you perk into. You have to choose the M60 you are fully perked in OR the auto-shotty you are not. Intellect lets you use the fully perked turrets AND the auto-shotty you are not. That is the endgame advantage of the intellect build.

 

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

If you don't want Junk Turrets to equal a real gun, then Int . . . needs a real gun that stands on it own end game.

 

You have your pick of any of the tier 3 top quality real guns in the game to use with your turrets. Junk Turrets should only equal other real guns in a mathematical thought exercise exempt of any actual gameplay context because the real truth is that players don't just watch their turrets take care of the zombies for them. Actually, just watching the turrets do the work or going AFK while they do the work is pretty much against Madmole's whole "get off your ass" philosophy...

 

4 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Their only real use or role is basically just as an afk type defense weapon, which a lot of players like myself love.

 

No. That might be how you want to use them but that isn't the intention nor what they are balanced towards. They are balanced towards their owner also participating in the fight. If they were balanced the way you want then they would be massively OP whenever the player chose to also participate-- and I think most players do choose to participate with their turrets.

 

Finally, IMO, not every build needs to be created equal. Assymetrical builds are way more exciting and good for replay value than builds that have weapons that have symmetrical DPS values and are just differently themed and skinned. There can be builds that are challenge builds and perhaps not quite as efficient or overtly powerful as others but rewarding in other ways. You talk a lot about efficiency and point cost and I think that that focus is what limits your ability to play intellect as its own build.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

So how are you finding traders in A20? Do their quest rewards seem balanced? Not asking for details, just general feedback. Also, I believe it was Madmole who said that traders will have slightly better stock than your current lootstage level can give you in loot. If this is the case, does this adjust depending on what biome you're in? (ie Will Trader Joel in the forest biome have "inferior stock" compared to Trader Joel in the wasteland?)

 

I don't think they have touched this yet. Game balance stuff like this doesn't happen until the last month or so when Joel starts playing monster sessions to test balance for himself. RIght now with all the RWG changes it is off and on whether traders even spawn in a given A20 build. Its not really possible at this point to play a long term or real game of A20. You can get on to try out different things like the new pipe weapons, or explore a newly added POI, or travel around to see the world generation and town layouts. I've tried the buried supply quest to see the changes they made but I haven't done a lot of questing yet in A20 because that takes time and you don't want to invest that while there are good odds your save will break because something isn't working because of some other change that was made.

 

Now that I downloaded A19, I'm actually feeling like playing a longterm game of that. My honeymoon with Valheim is about over. It is fun but lately when I sign on and remember that I quit because I knew I had to do a bunch of grinding, I tend to sign off again right away instead of playing, thinking I'll wait until another day to see if the mood hits me again to do all the chores I need to do.

29 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Maybe the zombies can be streamlined into 3 versions, because 3 is magic, and more is too complex.  

 

Normal zombie, fat zombie (slow/strong), and skinny zombie (fast/weak).  
 

 

 

How about you streamline your posts into three versions: Streamline Snark, Porn Inuendo, and MMA References...

 

😜

[MechanicalLens]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

My honeymoon with Valheim is about over. It is fun but lately when I sign on and remember that I quit because I knew I had to do a bunch of grinding, I tend to sign off again right away instead of playing, thinking I'll wait until another day to see if the mood hits me again to do all the chores I need to do.

 

Not surprised really. Very few survival games do grinding well, and 7D2D is one of them, alongside Terraria and I suppose Minecraft as well. For me Valheim was more of a one night fling than anything else. Maybe I'll check back on it in about a year or so.

[SnowDog1942]

4 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

For me Valheim was more of a one night fling than anything else. Maybe I'll check back on it in about a year or so.

If you need another one night fling, let me know.

[MechanicalLens]

2 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

If you need another one night fling, let me know.

 

Bad luck, pal. I'm ace. 😜

[Aldranon]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

<Snip>

The blunderbuss and its ammo are coming to an end with A19. It might show up in a future game but the pipe shotgun will replace it in A20 and uses regular shotgun shells.

 

Yeah.  I'm split on this.

A part of me loves carrying 5 blunderbuss on my belt, early game, yet I know I'm so OP its almost not funny.  (But it is).

 

The real problem is what this could indicate: As the blunderbuss doesn't scale well into mid-game (Roughly, when I can build concrete).  This tells me there is probably no real mid-game challenge planed for the foreseeable future and early game is still THE game. (Its fun of course, but short).

[Roland]

Nothing wrong with carrying 5 pipe shotguns on your belt. In fact, everything is right with that.

[Aldranon]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

Nothing wrong with carrying 5 pipe shotguns on your belt. In fact, everything is right with that.

 

The big(?) problem is now a person needs to use "real" ammo.  This is a tragedy for me as I often spec into shotgun.  I'm a dirty shotgun min-max'er and I can run through many POI's with an auto shotgun, burning through shotgun ammo... OK, I know I can usually make more by then... What was the question?

 

OH! I guess I'm a little spoiled by the super easy early game (Often starting day 1-2) caused by blunderbuss.

 

OK, glad we had this talk and I hope I cleared things up for you! 

[Laz Man]

As a player who likes to spec intellect, I feel it is awesome for BM hordes, especially if you like to play solo.  I highly recommend specing into it early so dual turrets can be unlocked faster.

 

I have no issues using other weapons im not specced into as it supplements my spec very well and why not use the weapons and ammo that you find?  I doubt the zombies care if who their eating are purists or not... 😅

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[pregnable]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

Nothing wrong with carrying 5 pipe shotguns on your belt. In fact, everything is right with that.

 

So basically, what you are saying, if I understood correctly, is that....

 

Drones will have the ability to fight with pipe batons and stun batons, as though they were dancing swords, if you put them in their inventory... but only those weapons. 

 

Great change!!!  Glad you let us know!!!

[Aldranon]

1 minute ago, Laz Man said:

As a player who likes to spec intellect, I feel it is a great for BM hordes, especially if you like to play solo.  I highly recommend specing into it early so dual turrets can be unlocked faster.

 

I have no issues using other weapons im not specced into as it supplements my spec very well and why not use the weapons and ammo that you find?  I doubt the zombies care if who their eating are purists or not... 😅

 

 

Wow, dual turrets are SO expensive for the benefits, IMO.  Yes BM defense is a breeze with up to 8 sledge turrets (2 per side), but POI clearing is not as fast as certain builds. 

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, Aldranon said:

 

Wow, dual turrets are SO expensive for the benefits, IMO.  Yes BM defense is a breeze with up to 8 sledge turrets (2 per side), but POI clearing is not as fast as certain builds. 

 

Perhaps but that how fast do POIs need to be cleared anyways for it to be significant?  I suppose if someone plays at a really high difficulty and very short days, it becomes more critical.  I never had issues with clearing POIs with 7 day BM cycles on 60 min days all the way past demolishers.

[Aldranon]

10 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Perhaps but that how fast do POIs need to be cleared anyways for it to be significant?  I suppose if someone plays at a really high difficulty and very short days, it becomes more critical.  I never had issues with clearing POIs with 7 day BM cycles on 60 min days all the way past demolishers.

 

"Dora" from Neebs Gaming would agree with you.  He never leaves home without a turret. 

 

Edit:  Dont get me wrong, I love sledge turrets because they use no ammo and, if placed right, can be brutal in BM and POI's.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Aldranon (see edit history)

[Gazz]

6 hours ago, Khalagar said:

SMG + machete are probably the least viable, at least sniper and spear get explosives to off set how bad those two weapons are

Pistols and knives are one of the most OP builds if you play to their advantages.

A lot of players rate attributes by how well they support their preferred play style. =P

[Diragor]

On 3/15/2021 at 6:47 AM, Gazz said:

Not really.

The whole smelting materials into the forge (smelter) is a silly mechanic that is unnecessarily hard to understand because no smelter works that way IRL.

They do not store a huge quantity of 5 different materials internally.

You smelt something and then you have an output of material so the chem station setup would be a lot more realistic for it.

I agree on that! But getting rid of the forge is hard to imagine at first. I bet you will do a great job on it.

About the forge I would've changed it to a combination of forge and workstation like it's just the size of the chem station.

You can smelt 1 thing at a time and you need a Crucible so the smelted material can stay there for a short time. you can have up to 4 Crucibles so that you can have smelted Iron, brass, sand and lead. only those four cause why would you need to smelt stone or clay. So If you want to craft something you need the smelted material. If you want to craft something that needs multiple ingredience you also need multiple crucibles. that means the crucible needs to be changed to not be a rare drop anymore.

this sounds a bit complex I know but that would be how I would do it. I know it's never going to look like that in 7dtd but still wanted to share my ideas

[Roland]

 

2 hours ago, Aldranon said:

 

The big(?) problem is now a person needs to use "real" ammo.  This is a tragedy for me as I often spec into shotgun.  I'm a dirty shotgun min-max'er and I can run through many POI's with an auto shotgun, burning through shotgun ammo... OK, I know I can usually make more by then... What was the question?

 

OH! I guess I'm a little spoiled by the super easy early game (Often starting day 1-2) caused by blunderbuss.

 

OK, glad we had this talk and I hope I cleared things up for you! 

 

Well if it eases the pain a bit, I heard a rumor that Al's Diner gives discounts on Bear Hugs and Blimp Rides to those who walk in wearing a Belt o' Shotguns. With perks like that, who could be against wasting a bit of shotty ammo?

 

2 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

So basically, what you are saying, if I understood correctly, is that....

 

Drones will have the ability to fight with pipe batons and stun batons, as though they were dancing swords, if you put them in their inventory... but only those weapons. 

 

Great change!!!  Glad you let us know!!!

 

Exactly! You're Welcome!

 

Now, that that is cleared up I wonder if I could interest you in the purchase of a particular bridge over Deadman's Gulch in Navezgane County-- going cheap....

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

The blunderbuss and its ammo are coming to an end with A19.

I will miss the barking sound when shooting the BB... 

[MechanicalLens]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I will miss the barking sound when shooting the BB... 

 

Or scaring friends half to death in multiplayer.