Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Both right and both wrong at the same time.

 

26 minutes ago, madmole said:

That's not a bug, you are modding beyond the hard coded limit.

Actually it is a bug in that a variable is not being clamped correctly and allowing corruption.  As an example take the color function for the XUI functionality which correctly clamps the color max value at 255.  This allows creative functions such as an icon starting black and turning white as the value goes up to the max of 255 where the color function clamps it instead of looping, corrupting memory, or other oddness even if fed a number beyond the limit.

 

 

15 minutes ago, MarhsMellow said:

It isn't a "hard coded" limit if the stack size is changeable in XML. Any sort of player corruption should be looked into because correctly saving character profiles would be top priority I would think.

It is a bug in your mod that you go beyond the expected limits.  It is a bug in 7DTD that doing so is not handled gracefully by clamping the value or ignoring it.

 

The bug in the mod exposes the bug in the "limit'.

[bachgaman]

 

It seems to me, or did the night zombies not die at 04:00 before? Oddly enough, after their natural death, they leave sacks of loot.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

6 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

 

It seems to me, or did the night zombies not die at 04:00 before? Oddly enough, after their natural death, they leave sacks of loot.

Not new.  It depends on when and how the zombie was spawned, but yes some night zombies do die when day arrives.  Happened for many versions (was going to say moons but that would be confusing) now.  It goes back at least as far as when zombies had loot of their own not just loot bags.  Yes, it is nice to find that free loot bag on occasion.

[kanealpha]

i love the new Roll up doors. Any chance we'll get them in more variations? maybe 2x2, 1x2 (like a door? or even 1x1 like a hatch?

[Kosmic Kerman]

44 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Then you completely missed the point.

 

Rebar, concrete, and steel were later game luxuries depending how you played, where you invested points, and how much you use the trader.

 

My whole issue is the upgrade path severely limiting the early game, not late game.

 

I did not understand your point which is why I replied and specifically asked what the issue was. I am genuinely trying to understand the issue you have as the only difference I see between A19 and A20 is what I described in my reply.

 

Here is what you said:

 

Quote

This simplification has meant very limited upgrade path progression, and whereby it may appease those who cant be bothered to rebar, for me it has shortened the building experience.

 

Now it isn't as satisfying to build and upgrade, the time it took to move up block advancements actually gave me something to do and kept me occupied in game, as building (as well as farming) are big parts of my playstyle.

 

Maybe we just have different building styles but early game I always started in flagstone or cobble and then upgraded to concrete and then steel.  I'm not sure how A20 is substantially different in this regard other than skipping one phase of concrete.  In terms of "block advancements" this was always gated by what materials you had through crafting or from the trader.  I'm not sure what has changed here.

 

[dhlmaster]

39 minutes ago, MarhsMellow said:

It isn't a "hard coded" limit if the stack size is changeable in XML. Any sort of player corruption should be looked into because correctly saving character profiles would be top priority I would think.

If you ever took a programming class, you would know that different variable types have built in hard limits. It was never intended for stack sizes to go that high, so the programmers used a variable type that doesn't go that high. It's a design choice that makes the code more efficient. Variable types with larger limits take up more space in your RAM while you play the game and make the save files larger. RAM usage and save file size is already huge for this game and the programmers decided not to bloat it even more with unnecessarily large variable types 

[Guppycur]

5 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

And you'd still have the problem from getting XP from crafting stations. I'm glad I can just set stuff to craft and leave the base rather than babysitting it or blocking outputs. I've yet to play a game with a good implementation of LBD. If you scale XP gain for typical play, people will spam to get to max level quickly and then complain. If you build the system for the min-maxers than the "normal" players are left with either being underleveled or spam crafting.

If people want to make the best stone axe there ever was then by god let them.

 

...you can manage LBD by limiting it to say T3.

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

 

 

You heard it here first folks, rev up those hype machines and ready the pitchforks if the final end result doesn't match what ever expectations you whipped up!!

 

 

Well he says it's not coming back, but it is, and it sounds like it's going to be done right this time.  Learn By Doing, but for crafting only, which makes sense as long as that learning can't be applied across the board to other skills/perks/whatever.

1 hour ago, MarhsMellow said:

Loving A20 so far.

 

There is a bug in the b218, if you increase casino coin stack to beyond 100000, it doesn't save character properly and will quickly lead to your player save being "wiped". Reproduced it 3 times just by increasing stacksize to 100000, restarting, giving myself 100000 and saving/loading a few times.

 

How's it a bug when you broke it by going past the 32k limit on stack sizes?  Heck, if you only went ONE past what they designed, how is b218 bugged?

 

C'mon man.  😃

[faatal]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:20 PM, meilodasreh said:

Wow that's a brain twister.

faatal will love to sort that one out. 

madmole will surely award him the "bugbuster of the month badge" if he kills it 😄

Don't think love is the word.

[Guppycur]

1 hour ago, MarhsMellow said:

It isn't a "hard coded" limit if the stack size is changeable in XML. Any sort of player corruption should be looked into because correctly saving character profiles would be top priority I would think.

No?  There is a hard coded limit of 32,767.  You go beyond that it's on you.  Just as if you took a screwdriver and stabbed your hard drive, that's not on TFP either.  Geesh.

 

Or if your mouse wears out because you click too much.  Not everything is TFP's fault.

[Guppycur]

17 minutes ago, faatal said:

Don't think love is the word.

 

Well at least he posted what he thinks is the reason.

 

Solved: I know exactly what's going on now after testing further... I have a working Vending Machine by my front door. My stupid Turrets are shooting the vending machine when there's an enemy there. Apparently it transfers that electric shock to me when this happens no matter where I am.

 

...I wonder if his body is considered at the point where he enters his vehicle in, so takes aoe damage or something weird.

[MuffinMan]

28 minutes ago, dhlmaster said:

If you ever took a programming class, you would know that different variable types have built in hard limits. It was never intended for stack sizes to go that high, so the programmers used a variable type that doesn't go that high. It's a design choice that makes the code more efficient. Variable types with larger limits take up more space in your RAM while you play the game and make the save files larger. RAM usage and save file size is already huge for this game and the programmers decided not to bloat it even more with unnecessarily large variable types 

 

What variable type maxes out at 20000 ? Even a 16bit integer can go to 65535 and they should be using 32bit integers for this sort of thing anyhow due to speed on x86/x64 processors. 

 

I would be using an uint32 for the "type" and an uint32 for the stack size and a uint64 which can double as flags or a pointer to more data if the object has its own data attached and cannot be stacked (ie a gun with its own values). If the pointer is null assume it is just a simple item like a coin/ore/etc. If 7DTD had a "quality" aspect to items like they used to (I think?), like a steak that was 80% "good", you could throw in another 32bit there that could be a float or int and then mix it when combining/removing stacks.

 

I have designed many inventory and character systems, including fully moddable systems that load from XML. So I do not think there should be some "stack size limit" of 20000, but even if there is this limit (for whatever reason) then they shouldn't be allowing stack sizes higher than whatever that limit is anyhow like Red Eagle mentioned.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

No?  There is a hard coded limit of 32,767.  You go beyond that it's on you.  Just as if you took a screwdriver and stabbed your hard drive, that's not on TFP either.  Geesh.

 

Or if your mouse wears out because you click too much.  Not everything is TFP's fault.

 

Well if there is a limit they should be clamping to it when reading the XML ? That is a bug.

[bayaholic]

30 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

If people want to make the best stone axe there ever was then by god let them.

 

...you can manage LBD by limiting it to say T3.

Well he says it's not coming back, but it is, and it sounds like it's going to be done right this time.  Learn By Doing, but for crafting only, which makes sense as long as that learning can't be applied across the board to other skills/perks/whatever.  😃

Is LBD really making a comeback? Exciting news if it is. On certain crafting items that is, like tools. 

[Guppycur]

7 minutes ago, MarhsMellow said:

 

What variable type maxes out at 20000 ? Even a 16bit integer can go to 65535 and they should be using 32bit integers for this sort of thing anyhow due to speed on x86/x64 processors. 

 

I would be using an uint32 for the "type" and an uint32 for the stack size and a uint64 which can double as flags or a pointer to more data if the object has its own data attached and cannot be stacked (ie a gun with its own values). If the pointer is null assume it is just a simple item like a coin/ore/etc. If 7DTD had a "quality" aspect to items like they used to (I think?), like a steak that was 80% "good", you could throw in another 32bit there that could be a float or int and then mix it when combining/removing stacks.

 

I have designed many inventory and character systems, including fully moddable systems that load from XML. So I do not think there should be some "stack size limit" of 20000, but even if there is this limit (for whatever reason) then they shouldn't be allowing stack sizes higher than whatever that limit is anyhow like Red Eagle mentioned.

 

 

 

 

Well if there is a limit they should be clamping to it when reading the XML ? That is a bug.

It's likely a unicode limit, but that's besides the point.

 

You can put all sorts of things into the XML's to get nice game crashing red errors, some of them will even mess with your save game (loading quest or skill changes after a player is made, for example, much less the tons and tons of c# options to really make you have a bad day), I doubt sincerely the pimps will or even SHOULD throw time at stopping user error, and that's exactly what we're talking about... let's be clear... user error.  Not trying to sound offensive, but this seems to be the hill you're on, so... <Shrug>

[MuffinMan]

Just now, bayaholic said:

Is LBD really making a comeback? Exciting news if it is. On certain crafting items that is, like tools. 

I find it more interesting that every item has its own unique properties than "tier" levels. ie the Diablo way of doing items. And for a crafting game it gives you more incentive to keep getting materials to craft an item that is even better, or even search for loot.

 

As much as it might be game breaking that someone makes the stone axe of god, maybe if they have put 200 hours into that stone axe creating character it should be possible, at least in singleplayer? Could just be an option to cap every tool to to a certain percentage beyond its base stats, or have it unlimited.

[Guppycur]

4 minutes ago, bayaholic said:

Is LBD really making a comeback? Exciting news if it is. On certain crafting items that is, like tools. 

 

I dunno, it's mixed messages.  If he's talking about making more of x gets you a slightly better x, then yes... hopefully it'll be limited to x though, and not y or z.  Screw y and z, they don't deserve x anyway.

[dcsobral]

30 minutes ago, faatal said:

Don't think love is the word.

I gather it's more like prime facepalm emoji then?

[Guppycur]

3 minutes ago, MarhsMellow said:

I find it more interesting that every item has its own unique properties than "tier" levels. ie the Diablo way of doing items. And for a crafting game it gives you more incentive to keep getting materials to craft an item that is even better, or even search for loot.

 

As much as it might be game breaking that someone makes the stone axe of god, maybe if they have put 200 hours into that stone axe creating character it should be possible, at least in singleplayer? Could just be an option to cap every tool to to a certain percentage beyond its base stats, or have it unlimited.

Well imo as long as they're using the materials, and that's how they want to play, then fuggit... but yeh I agree having a limit on just how good you could get would be great.  I'm for a tier 1-3 crafting, 4-5 buying, 6 finding system myself.

[MuffinMan]

1 minute ago, Guppycur said:

It's likely a unicode limit, but that's besides the point.

 

You can put all sorts of things into the XML's to get nice game crashing red errors, some of them will even mess with your save game (loading quest or skill changes after a player is made, for example, much less the tons and tons of c# options to really make you have a bad day), I doubt sincerely the pimps will or even SHOULD throw time at stopping user error, and that's exactly what we're talking about... let's be clear... user error.  Not trying to sound offensive, but this seems to be the hill you're on, so... <Shrug>

 

No it is not a unicode or user error. Switching a value from 20000 to 100000 shouldn't break the game, especially on something that many people would change in mods to different values. It is a simple clamp for whatever range your stack size supports that is done by the XML parsing code. They would already be clamping and checking values when reading from the XML, they must have missed this one, or perhaps they have a 16bit "ReadValue" function that isn't properly designed and should be fixed.

 

You are talking about a different thing in regards to XML changes breaking the game due to removing structures or items that used to exist. It would be like saying for a string value if you used the value "stone" instead of "Stone" the game corrupted itself due to a string parsing error in the XML code. How is one supposed to know that "Stacknumber" is limited to a 16bit range? If there was a way to know that and then a user put in something else than that is user error.

[Guppycur]

1 minute ago, MarhsMellow said:

 

No it is not a unicode or user error. Switching a value from 20000 to 100000 shouldn't break the game, especially on something that many people would change in mods to different values. It is a simple clamp for whatever range your stack size supports that is done by the XML parsing code. They would already be clamping and checking values when reading from the XML, they must have missed this one, or perhaps they have a 16bit "ReadValue" function that isn't properly designed and should be fixed.

 

You are talking about a different thing in regards to XML changes breaking the game due to removing structures or items that used to exist. It would be like saying for a string value if you used the value "stone" instead of "Stone" the game corrupted itself due to a string parsing error in the XML code. How is one supposed to know that "Stacknumber" is limited to a 16bit range? If there was a way to know that and then a user put in something else than that is user error.

It's really quite simple.  I get where you're coming from but I wholeheartedly disagree.  You broke the game and called it a bug.  But it only broke through your actions.  That's the definition of user error.  I personally don't want the pimps to "fix" it because it's wasted time they could spend fleshing out LBD. 😃

 

If they choose to, and that's their prerogative, because joking aside idgaf, that's cool but it doesn't mean it's a bug.  A bug would be if a designed system didn't work as designed. 

 

The reality is, if they start going through and add error handling they're going to end up causing more harm to systems we modders take advantage of than they're actually "protecting".

 

But you broke it, not them.  Insert this sentence into any subsequent replies. 😃

[MuffinMan]

8 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Well imo as long as they're using the materials, and that's how they want to play, then fuggit... but yeh I agree having a limit on just how good you could get would be great.  I'm for a tier 1-3 crafting, 4-5 buying, 6 finding system myself.

 

In my own A20 mod I have it so you can create all tier level items, and then there is a random chance it is -10% to 100% better than the base stats. I find that much more enjoyable having to look at every item in the shop to see its stats or not knowing exactly what you are going to get when crafting, makes it more exciting. Makes me want to grind for those gun parts to make a gun that is maxed out.

 

But having it configurable so the user could limit it to how they like would be nice too. I think they should get rid of tiers altogether and just have it so every item has its own unique stats. Then you could pretty easily have some configurable range on percentages allowed beyond base stats. ie a "Crafting Range" and a "Shop Range" and maybe even a "Loot Range"

 

 

[dcsobral]

33 minutes ago, MarhsMellow said:

 

Well if there is a limit they should be clamping to it when reading the XML ? That is a bug.

The game is in alpha. They haven't added railings to modding yet.

25 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

 

I dunno, it's mixed messages.  If he's talking about making more of x gets you a slightly better x, then yes... hopefully it'll be limited to x though, and not y or z.  Screw y and z, they don't deserve x anyway.

It seemed pretty clear to me. He said the skill would increase by reading stuff you find in loot, so no, it's not LBD.

[Callum123456789]

my tunnel of crafting areas has begun lol as soon as i get all the resources im gonna fill most of it with workbenches so i can mass produce things faster lol i always do this at the bottom of the world to avoid screamers  

4 minutes ago, Callum123456789 said:

my tunnel of crafting areas has begun lol as soon as i get all the resources im gonna fill most of it with workbenches so i can mass produce things faster lol i always do this at the bottom of the world to avoid screamers  

 and im playing on 120 minute days right now because it gives me a lot of time to do these types of things like building stuff and making huge tunnels its what i find fun the main things are building things making tunnels killing zombies and hoarding too much stuff in my storage 

[Blake_]

3 hours ago, madmole said:

Nothing is finalized, but we're talking about a crafting skill for every item in the game. Associated books and schematics might add to it when read, and probably the introduction of "technical journals" or something you find and read to add to the skill. Higher intellect might give you +2 or something instead of +1. Something we can control in loot so players don't get too powerful too soon, (No spam crafting) and skill system to where its easier to craft a blue stone axe than a blue steel axe.

We're not. It's more like learn by looting lol.

 

That's cool. That way you can reward players with skill books for doing quests, which is a great incentive. The crafting increments will also keep us desiring better gear and the hands-on mechanic of making it ourselves is cool. It's hard balance work , but everything is already there in the code so it's just patching, implementing, tweaking and trying.

 

I have to ask, will you guys simultaneously add armours with legendary effects for weapons or are you holding off on the latter ? a21 seems crazy already, and it hasn't even taken form yet.

17 minutes ago, Callum123456789 said:

my tunnel of crafting areas has begun lol as soon as i get all the resources im gonna fill most of it with workbenches so i can mass produce things faster lol i always do this at the bottom of the world to avoid screamers  

 and im playing on 120 minute days right now because it gives me a lot of time to do these types of things like building stuff and making huge tunnels its what i find fun the main things are building things making tunnels killing zombies and hoarding too much stuff in my storage 

You.... are... yeah... you called quite a bit of screamers. I'm day 24 120 min days and I'm still on lvl 64. No more than a couple screamers called, so that must be it. You mad lad.

[Matt115]

i'm still alive , i'm just not complying so :

1. Hey devs how is going with fixing bugs?

2. Is "random place" bug a leftover from traveler merchant event test?

3. This can sound strange but - there will be more "water" in cites after water rework?

4. legendary weapons and tools are still in planes or scrapped?

5. Maybe can we expect contest in future like - the best POI contest: people creating POI's with limitations like : this must be medium POI etc and the best 3 POI will be added as "official"? 

[Guppycur]

5) You'll note that some of the best poi designers (in my opinion) are now TFP staff. 😃