Random Generation Simply keeps getting worse!

[mjimlay]

I understand this game is Alpha and has bugs, I get it, but let me get this straight. In the Alpha 19 notes, it says for a random gen world it will place ONE copy of EACH POI BEFORE creating duplicates? So why is it that on every... single... seed I've tried/previewed (at least in B178) I have duplicate Shamway/Shotgun HQ's all over the place but yet not a single navezgane high school, pop-in-pills HQ, Crack-a-book HQ, dishong tower, etc?! I've verified this by reviewing the XML file as well as using editing tools/preview tool and flying around the entire map. These are 8K maps mind you. 

 

Additionally, since the B178 update, the PREGEN maps water are all screwed up due to the water changes. Water levels are low, thus causing missing ponds. Finally, all I did was a random gen preview of my existing seed and most of the POI's are different now. This wouldn't be a big deal, but now when I play my game, I see the new POI's from a distance until I get close then see the POI that was created when I started my world. 

 

So, I've got to ask... WTF is going on with the random world generation?! I've never played the navezgane map, because it looks too small (green area way too small, cities too small, etc) and I don't think it has every single POI in the game either, but from what I've seen, it's such a beautiful map, has speed limit signs, streets that make sense (not a road that changes to a 90 degree angle at a random place). 

 

So, seriously, rant aside... WTF is going on? I thought random gen in A18 was bad, but I had no problem whatsoever finding nearly every single POI and there wasn't a Shamway/Shotgun HQ on every single corner. I would try more seeds, but it takes 20-30 minutes to generate a map and I have much better things to do with my time. 

[FileMachete]

In the last day or two MadMole said something like, "fixing RWG will be all hands on deck to get it to Gold levels for A20", something like that.

 

Just an fyi in case you missed his post in the dev thread, or (wisely) choose not to try and read that whole thing, heh.

[Vedui]

I would say TFP are doing a great job making them random. Imagine if all ponds had water in it, would get boring fast. Or all roads lead somewhere. Or don't dead end in a mountain. Or have 10 meter drops midway. It is truly random ... as when I cycled up a mountain only to crest it and ...plunge to my death some 50 meters down as a POI had been placed and carved out a perfect squad in the area.

 

I would like them a bit less random perhaps In a18 I didn't see any skyscrapers in any RWG i generated, in a19 ... actually I'm not sure I've seen any either 😛

[mjimlay]

Thanks Guys. I missed the dev thread. In A18, I had the dishong tower in the middle of a massive city along with pop-in-pills HQ, shotgun HQ, and shamway HQ. Perhaps I was just lucky? Who knows, but that map was amazing... There was a smaller city to my south which bordered the snow area, and a massive city to my north which had 3 or so large cities around it as well. There was a main road connecting the north and south cities and a small dirt road with a few buildings which is where I built my base which was surrounded by lakes. It was just a perfect spot and setup. It is what it is I suppose. I started a new game last night on the navezgane map... partly because I've never played it before and I jumped into the world editor to see what POI's it had and it seems to have all of them, or at least most anyway. I've really been enjoying it so far. I can see how people would get bored with it after playing it more than once since you'd know where everything is, but being the first time playing it... it's great. 

[Pichii]

13 hours ago, mjimlay said:

I understand this game is Alpha and has bugs, I get it, but let me get this straight. In the Alpha 19 notes, it says for a random gen world it will place ONE copy of EACH POI BEFORE creating duplicates? So why is it that on every... single... seed I've tried/previewed (at least in B178) I have duplicate Shamway/Shotgun HQ's all over the place but yet not a single navezgane high school, pop-in-pills HQ, Crack-a-book HQ, dishong tower, etc?! I've verified this by reviewing the XML file as well as using editing tools/preview tool and flying around the entire map. These are 8K maps mind you. 

 

Additionally, since the B178 update, the PREGEN maps water are all screwed up due to the water changes. Water levels are low, thus causing missing ponds. Finally, all I did was a random gen preview of my existing seed and most of the POI's are different now. This wouldn't be a big deal, but now when I play my game, I see the new POI's from a distance until I get close then see the POI that was created when I started my world. 

 

So, I've got to ask... WTF is going on with the random world generation?! I've never played the navezgane map, because it looks too small (green area way too small, cities too small, etc) and I don't think it has every single POI in the game either, but from what I've seen, it's such a beautiful map, has speed limit signs, streets that make sense (not a road that changes to a 90 degree angle at a random place). 

 

So, seriously, rant aside... WTF is going on? I thought random gen in A18 was bad, but I had no problem whatsoever finding nearly every single POI and there wasn't a Shamway/Shotgun HQ on every single corner. I would try more seeds, but it takes 20-30 minutes to generate a map and I have much better things to do with my time. 

I also griped about this in the bug area.
It was actually a bug that they are working on fixing.
As of the recent EXP friday 8/7 (I think) they changed the RWG and it favors green biome a bit less rigidly. 
In short, the pimps WANT green focused in the center of the map.
They did relax how much green spawns in the center but alas, I think were gona get pushed out of starting in desert, snow and burnt forest biomes a majority of the time.

There is a modder who consistantly has a RWG mod running tho, check the mod nexus.

[Ripflex]

You can't blame TFP for this; they are trying something MOST developers avoid with a ten foot pole.  Only a few games to date have successfully attempted it, Rimworld decent, No man sky ... not too many.

 

I'm sure it'll get better as they make more passes at the code ?

 

Most developers just handcraft maps or do a static world with "Tiled" randomness here and there... pretty basic stuff.

[pApA^LeGBa]

It´s Nitrogen all the way tbh. Even if the built in map generator will get a lot better, i am pretty sure TFP will never give us as many options when making a map as Nitrogen does. If we even get any besides the mapsize.

[eXSe]

Sure, they have a steep mountain to climb with the RWG and it's complexities and I get that the parts of it will be borked sometimes, but I sense that the overall "feel" of the terrain has been better lately. I do, though, miss the old Cities look of the A16 with more urban vibe... now it just looks like you're dropped into a never-ending suburb.

 

I'm happy with the terrain as long as this doesn't happen

 

[secateurs]

I started using Nitrogen for A19 and am blown away by how much better it is.

 

I just wish we could get the plains and boreal forest biomes back.

 

Wasteland can sod right off, completely useless trash biome that you never ever need to visit.

[Ramethzer0]

I often find myself wondering if people also understand that while also using words like 'Alpha' they also need to pay attention to the word 'Experimental' as well.

 

A lot of issues are complicated by the fact the game is in an experimental iteration.   RWG has been a thorn in their side for a while.  I'd caution people against considering it in a done state.

6 hours ago, eXSe said:

Sure, they have a steep mountain to climb with the RWG and it's complexities and I get that the parts of it will be borked sometimes, but I sense that the overall "feel" of the terrain has been better lately. I do, though, miss the old Cities look of the A16 with more urban vibe... now it just looks like you're dropped into a never-ending suburb.

 

I'm happy with the terrain as long as this doesn't happen

 

The first thing I learned I disliked was the Nitrogen setting for 'vicious cracks'  Oh lawds.. what a pain in my ***

[Sydious]

12 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I often find myself wondering if people also understand that while also using words like 'Alpha' they also need to pay attention to the word 'Experimental' as well.

 

A lot of issues are complicated by the fact the game is in an experimental iteration.   RWG has been a thorn in their side for a while.  I'd caution people against considering it in a done state.

The first thing I learned I disliked was the Nitrogen setting for 'vicious cracks'  Oh lawds.. what a pain in my ***

Of course it is not in "done state" and yes it is "experimental" (assuming you are talking about A19).  But everyone also needs to realize how long it has been (7+) and how long it has been neglected.  I would caution people to go to the "just mod it" thing.  This game is EA and feed back is a thing.  The question is are they listening?

That being said I also realize they have way more to deal with in that department (Graphics, Marketing, Replay ability, Etc...).

All that being said, people need to get off their boat and pay attention and fix some @%$*#!.

Modding is great, fantastic in fact but that should not take away from the core mechanics of the game.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is....

Do they just want money at this point, or do they what to make a fantastic game?

I LOVE this game and I just am terrified of the road ahead from experience.............

 

[PoloPoPo]

The only thing I would like to see improved with random maps are bumpy terrains offsidely from roads. No matter the biome, cutting across country is a pain due to extremely uneven terrain.

[FileMachete]

2 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

The only thing I would like to see improved with random maps are bumpy terrains offsidely from roads. No matter the biome, cutting across country is a pain due to extremely uneven terrain.

Damn straight. It's one thing when there's a clear terrain change from 'grassy' to 'hillside', if the hillside is rough, that makes some sense. But when what looks like smooth terrain, in the middle of a valley and almost flat to boot, is a washboard, that's in desperate need of fixing.

 

I don't mean this as 'piling on', MM said RWG is getting attention, so that's great news, but I'm really regreting using the vanilla rwg for a map. I just went exploring for an actual city as spawn had me in a pretty small town. Found two other towns, neither one much bigger, none having a skyscraper, but -all- having a Shotgun Messiah Factory, multiple large junk yards and other than the one single story Books in starter town, not a single other standalone Book/Gun/Pharmacy poi.

 

I haven't checked the prefabs.xml. Could just be a bad map/luck, but I really hope a map like this one _won't_ be possible when TFPs get done with their overhaul.

[KennyBMallNinja]

I don't mind the RGWs. On my current one I have some oddness such as an army camp right next to a base and a big fire station down the road by like 3 blocks from a small one but over all nothing broken yet.

[Ramethzer0]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:36 AM, Sydious said:

Of course it is not in "done state" and yes it is "experimental" (assuming you are talking about A19).  But everyone also needs to realize how long it has been (7+) and how long it has been neglected.  I would caution people to go to the "just mod it" thing.  This game is EA and feed back is a thing.  The question is are they listening?

That being said I also realize they have way more to deal with in that department (Graphics, Marketing, Replay ability, Etc...).

All that being said, people need to get off their boat and pay attention and fix some @%$*#!.

Modding is great, fantastic in fact but that should not take away from the core mechanics of the game.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is....

Do they just want money at this point, or do they what to make a fantastic game?

I LOVE this game and I just am terrified of the road ahead from experience.............

 

Sounds like you gotta beef that has nothing to do with me.  I would point out that the RWG has been way worse, and in its current state is the best I've ever seen it.  They read and accept feed back.  I've seen them do it.  But, there is a significant number of players that create a lot of noise filled with self-centered ideas, and egocentric points of view.  A good number of those feed backs are in fact not constructive, with many of them often just being whiny and coming off like somehow TFP owe them something on a personal level.  TFP have said repeatedly that they want to make this game, and its a long time labour of love.  Through the course of positive feedback, its become more than they dreamed of in the beginning.  I've been burned too by a lot of EA content, but I've been playing this game since the early A16, and in my own experience this game is growing.  It's growing faster than it did in previous alpha releases.  The core mechanics of this game has shifted multiple times already.   I've grown wiser in how I spend my money and time in EA games, and this one definitely stands apart from the failures.

 

But Terrified?  Really?   To met that sounds pretty extreme.

[smokingpaper]

The only thing that truly needs to change in RWG is a bit more smoother roads. Yes, its apocalyptic world and there is erosion and bla bla bla what not but some roads look a bit too weird imo.