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Open Letter to TFP's...


Demandred1957

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7 hours ago, Solomon said:

Dying Light has a whole huge DLC map created for using a buggy to get around the map, its even easier to use the car to shake of runners then fighting them.

DLCs don't really count because they run by different rules.  DLCs can afford to be riskier, smaller scale, imbalanced, etc without it being a big impact because the base game has already done it's job.  For example Far Cry 3 has a DLC that is all 80's future tech and it's amazing, but it only gets away with how thin it is and how short it's run time is because it's a DLC....it'd never work as a 40 hour main game because there just isn't enough there to justify it.  It wraps up about the time it starts to wear out it's welcome and get old at 4-8 hours.  So a DLC is very much not the same thing as a game, again they run by different rules.

Also it should be noted that only a faction of players will buy the DLC to a game.  You pretty much have to sell expansions that add major content to a base game that already has replayability to get a high adoption rate on your DLC/Expansions.

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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Lets continue to quote the definition of strawman: "The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument"

 

So with which different proposition have I replaced your proposition

My proposition is that you get to use the vehicles that you have earned, any way you like, now except during the horde, and that it's not fair or balanced, because of how they are used any other time.

 

your proposition is that during the horde, they are now "god-mode" and shouldn't be used like they are at any other time because it's a horde, and somehow that should make any difference to how a tool is used, and everybody should be fine with that just because, and without laying out any reasons why your scenario is somehow fair and balanced, considering the valid points I have put forward.

just saying "because it's a horde and you shouldn't be able to" doesn't cut it.

 

Now I never claimed to be part of a debate team, nor am I very eloquent, so if you wanna get into high level semantics, i'm going to have to tap out, and let someone who shares my viewpoint, and is capable of high level debate finish for me.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

My proposition is that you get to use the vehicles that you have earned, any way you like, now except during the horde, and that it's not fair or balanced, because of how they are used any other time.

 

your proposition is that during the horde, they are now "god-mode" and shouldn't be used like they are at any other time because it's a horde, and somehow that should make any difference to how a tool is used, and everybody should be fine with that just because, and without laying out any reasons why your scenario is somehow fair and balanced, considering the valid points I have put forward.

just saying "because it's a horde and you shouldn't be able to" doesn't cut it.

 

Now I never claimed to be part of a debate team, nor am I very eloquent, so if you wanna get into high level semantics, i'm going to have to tap out, and let someone who shares my viewpoint, and is capable of high level debate finish for me.

 

 

Several game mechanics work differently on horde night that they do the other 6 1/2 days of the week.

 

Stealth doesn't exist during horde, so all the time and energy agi players put into stealth builds are not able to be used during horde. Avoiding, shaking their aggro by running out of line of sight, and distracting them with rocks/snowballs doesn't work during the horde. The horde always knows where you are and always comes for you until either you die or they do.

 

So to me, making vehicles not be a god mode escape during the horde fits in with the other horde-specific mechanics. I suspect there will be other horde-specific mechanics in the future, but that is just a guess. TFP have said that the goal is that the only 100% safe way of avoiding the horde will be to stay at the traders that night for a hefty fee.

 

Other things changed include pyramid bases, stilt bases, and underground bases, but those changes affect non-horde times as well even though i believe the changes were made because of horde night. There are still exploit bases that work, but tfp are slowly making them obsolete as they have time.

 

You have said several times that to you, using weapons and traps is the same as running away in a vehicle. The difference is that while using weapons and traps to defend against the horde, you are actively engaging it with a chance to fail. (see all the demolisher rage posts here and on steam) In a18, driving around on horde night is almost 100% guaranteed safety. There is a difference to me at least, and to the fun pimps. 

 

Personally, I don't care either way because I have never used vehicles as a method to drive around on horde night. I also don't care what anyone else does in their games. But the above is my understanding of why they made the change and why i think it's fair.

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2 hours ago, katarynna said:

Several game mechanics work differently on horde night that they do the other 6 1/2 days of the week.

 

Stealth doesn't exist during horde, so all the time and energy agi players put into stealth builds are not able to be used during horde. Avoiding, shaking their aggro by running out of line of sight, and distracting them with rocks/snowballs doesn't work during the horde. The horde always knows where you are and always comes for you until either you die or they do.

 

So to me, making vehicles not be a god mode escape during the horde fits in with the other horde-specific mechanics. I suspect there will be other horde-specific mechanics in the future, but that is just a guess. TFP have said that the goal is that the only 100% safe way of avoiding the horde will be to stay at the traders that night for a hefty fee.

 

Other things changed include pyramid bases, stilt bases, and underground bases, but those changes affect non-horde times as well even though i believe the changes were made because of horde night. There are still exploit bases that work, but tfp are slowly making them obsolete as they have time.

 

You have said several times that to you, using weapons and traps is the same as running away in a vehicle. The difference is that while using weapons and traps to defend against the horde, you are actively engaging it with a chance to fail. (see all the demolisher rage posts here and on steam) In a18, driving around on horde night is almost 100% guaranteed safety. There is a difference to me at least, and to the fun pimps. 

 

Personally, I don't care either way because I have never used vehicles as a method to drive around on horde night. I also don't care what anyone else does in their games. But the above is my understanding of why they made the change and why i think it's fair.

Honestly i would much more prefer the horde night to be something what is dangerous but not because its homing on you.

 

For example lets say that the horde night doesnt do anything but spawn a bunch of berserking zombies what attack anything on sight including blocks. You are turning off all lights on your base, extinguish all fires, enter stealth and hope nothing sees you or gets aggroed on a badly placed trap making them attack your place.

 

You can avoid the horde if you are extremely careful or you can attack them like normally to end it. You can try to run away in stealth or use a vehicle and see the berserking guys all home into you because of the noise.

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4 hours ago, katarynna said:

But the above is my understanding of why they made the change and why i think it's fair.

I think it is wrong to call that fair. It's "fair" as in "it works like that with others too", but the most glaring flaw of this, that is you're not allowed to use stealth, breaks the effort of people who play smart, who avoid the zombies as much as possible and invest in stealth. Blood Moon takes away that playstyle entirely: their combat skill sneak attack is taken out, and I don't think it's fair at all. Why is a certain playstyle so much weaker compared to other playstyles?

 

By the way I'm not debating on the 4x4 thing, just specifically stealth during blood moon

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12 minutes ago, Raestloz said:

By the way I'm not debating on the 4x4 thing, just specifically stealth during blood moon

I think it's worthy its own topic.
I suggested that maybe stealth could allow getting away on vehicles... however, I don't think this is enough since it doesn't help out a team very much.
I know the stealth role during BM issue has been presented before. Maybe someone will come up with a decent idea this time.

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8 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

My proposition is that you get to use the vehicles that you have earned, any way you like, now except during the horde, and that it's not fair or balanced, because of how they are used any other time.

 

your proposition is that during the horde, they are now "god-mode" and shouldn't be used like they are at any other time because it's a horde, and somehow that should make any difference to how a tool is used, and everybody should be fine with that just because, and without laying out any reasons why your scenario is somehow fair and balanced, considering the valid points I have put forward.

just saying "because it's a horde and you shouldn't be able to" doesn't cut it.

 

Now I never claimed to be part of a debate team, nor am I very eloquent, so if you wanna get into high level semantics, i'm going to have to tap out, and let someone who shares my viewpoint, and is capable of high level debate finish for me.

 

 

I'm just not happy to be repeatedly accused of using a disingenious debating technique. So you should at least be able to justify that accusation.

 

And it seems you may have the wrong idea about what a strawman is. Because to show I'm doing a strawman you would have had to list a second proposition of yours that you never made, NOT my proposition. I'm not the one who started using the high level semantics and I'm ok with you either dropping that accusation or really showing why it is a strawman.

 

-----

 

Now back to the topic: As katarynna expülained so well, the 7th day in the game is a special day with special rules. Those special rules mean that:

 

On 6 of 7 nights I can do the follwowing things and if I'm careful and stealthy and have a secure place I can get to I'm relatively sure to survive this unharmed

 

1) I can just walk quietly to a tree and fell it

2) or harvest my farm plots

3) or even loot a POI I cleared on the day

4) or drive around in a vehicle

 

On day 7 I can do all of these things too, but almost immediately this gets me surrounded by a large group of dangerous running zombies. Is that fair?

When you don't know it the first time, probably not really. When you know it, it is just an additional challenge the game puts before you on a regular basis and you can prepare for it. Since it is an alpha the rules may change from alpha to alpha.

 

Does that explanation make more sense to you?

 

You also say that the vehicle cost you lots of time and resources. Correct. But maybe not enough. How much is enough is determined by the developers and they obviously decided that the costs of the vehicle is not, especially because it is so useful any other day of the week.

 

You say other exploits are still open. Correct. But they have exactly one developer in charge of AI that can fix all those exploits. He has only 8 hours per day to work on this and many other tasks and it takes him multiple days to fix just one of the many exploits. So a few weeks ago he fixed the pyramid exploit and in a different week he found time to fix or balance the vehicle exploit/OP/balance problem (however you want to call it). 7D2D is in alpha and not finished, exploits get fixed slowly and over time.

 

By the way, in reality there are also special rules on the seventh day:  In most countries you can't shop on sunday because the shops are closed. Is it unfair? Unbalanced? 😉

 

 

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2 hours ago, Raestloz said:

I think it is wrong to call that fair. It's "fair" as in "it works like that with others too", but the most glaring flaw of this, that is you're not allowed to use stealth, breaks the effort of people who play smart, who avoid the zombies as much as possible and invest in stealth. Blood Moon takes away that playstyle entirely: their combat skill sneak attack is taken out, and I don't think it's fair at all. Why is a certain playstyle so much weaker compared to other playstyles?

 

By the way I'm not debating on the 4x4 thing, just specifically stealth during blood moon

i remember some discussion madmole participated in regarding possible buffs to stealth during bloodmoon, so it may get something added.

 

However, the main advantage stealth players have on horde night is the piles of ammo they loot all week, while using very little. They can use much more ammo on horde night since they get most of their kills the rest of the week with stealth melee, or 1 shot kills with bows or handguns.

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22 minutes ago, katarynna said:

piles of ammo they loot all week

I do not think this is necessarily a good trade off. Every point spent on sneak attack is a point not spent on combat skill that increases damage.

In Agility attribute you can either take Hidden Strike or Gunslinger. For the sake of argument we're not entertaining "What if they take both?", that'd lead to a never ending "they could've taken these skills instead". Incidentally, they both cost the same as far as skill points go

 

Hidden Strike grants 200% extra sneak attack damage on top of the standard 50%, so you're dealing 350% damage per attack

Gunslinger deals 50% extra damage with 100% extra damage every 3rd shot, so about 115% extra damage per shot for a total of 215% damage per attack

 

In order to compensate for the loss of Hidden Strike, you'd need to gather more than double the usual bullets, and considering you'd still need at least 1 bullet per zombie to kill them anyway, I don't think Hidden Strike is good enough.

Not to mention the distinct advantage faster reload brings, which would up the damage dealt per second

 

but as you say stealth may get buffed, so they recognized there's a problem

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Yup, the conversation i remember was definitely a "maybe we could do something like" possibility kind of conversation, not a "this is coming in a future alpha" conversation.

 

The idea thrown around was that possibly ducking out of sight would give you a couple seconds to get off a shot that would have the sneak attack damage, regardless of the horde gps ability.

 

That sounds fair to me, but not sure how or if something like that would ever be implemented. Just that a possible buff to stealth playstyles for horde night only is on the table.

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9 minutes ago, Raestloz said:

I do not think this is necessarily a good trade off. Every point spent on sneak attack is a point not spent on combat skill that increases damage.

In Agility attribute you can either take Hidden Strike or Gunslinger. For the sake of argument we're not entertaining "What if they take both?", that'd lead to a never ending "they could've taken these skills instead". Incidentally, they both cost the same as far as skill points go

 

Hidden Strike grants 200% extra sneak attack damage on top of the standard 50%, so you're dealing 350% damage per attack

Gunslinger deals 50% extra damage with 100% extra damage every 3rd shot, so about 115% extra damage per shot for a total of 215% damage per attack

 

In order to compensate for the loss of Hidden Strike, you'd need to gather more than double the usual bullets, and considering you'd still need at least 1 bullet per zombie to kill them anyway, I don't think Hidden Strike is good enough.

Not to mention the distinct advantage faster reload brings, which would up the damage dealt per second

 

but as you say stealth may get buffed, so they recognized there's a problem

The agi player is not to supposed to only take one of Gunslinger and Hidden Strike. He either specs into Gunslinger+Run and Gun OR Gunslinger+Hidden Strike. The latter multiplies the damage you make on 6 of 7 days.

 

This is similar to a perception player speccing into sniper+penetration and a miner speccing into miner69+motherlode.

 

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Wouldn't that make you repeatedly squat all night to trigger that sneak attack window 🤣

Cloud Strife would be proud

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

He either specs into Gunslinger+Run and Gun OR Gunslinger+Hidden Strike

 

Then Hidden Strike needs to be reworked. As it stands it's in a limbo between a useful damaging skill and completely useless stealth. I think it should be merged into From The Shadows to be honest

 

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17 minutes ago, Raestloz said:

Wouldn't that make you repeatedly squat all night to trigger that sneak attack window 🤣

Cloud Strife would be proud

 

Then Hidden Strike needs to be reworked. As it stands it's in a limbo between a useful damaging skill and completely useless stealth. I think it should be merged into From The Shadows to be honest

 

That might be a sensible change. Note that madmole recently said that only strength and fortitude trees are where they want them and the other trees needs some more (upwards) balancing.

 

When I play AGI I notice that I have a harder time to get XP in a similar amount to other attribute trees and togehter with my desire to be good at bows as well I seriously lag behind on getting that agi tree full.

On the other hand all other trees have "dump perks" and agi is the only one where I want them all.

 

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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I'm just not happy to be repeatedly accused of using a disingenious debating technique. So you should at least be able to justify that accusation

Ok, so maybe my understanding of what it was was wrong.

Maybe I will just say your argument just sounds lame to me?

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1 hour ago, Raestloz said:

Hidden Strike grants 200% extra sneak attack damage on top of the standard 50%, so you're dealing 350% damage per attack (Shouldnt this be 250%?)

Gunslinger deals 50% extra damage with 100% extra damage every 3rd shot, so about 115% extra damage per shot for a total of 215% damage per attack

How does changing stealth around to be granting while you TRY TO BE STEALTHY and not just when you are IN stealth?

 

Lets change the skill name into Hidden Strike, this perk now grants you +50% damage on your first attack from stealth and +150% damage while you deal damage from the dark or from stealth.

 

This makes it soo that in the regular nights and regular stealth you are getting +250% damage and on the horde night you still have +200% damage.

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Mmmm, Well, Vedui beat me to making a video that shows off how to game da F! out of the vulture mob. But all I got to say is thanks for the unlimited bones, feathers, and rotten meat pimps!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Just give up, take that broken mechanic out, quit chasing exploits, and finish the game all ready.. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!

There is such a small % of players who exploit their way through the game, and all you are doing is getting farther and farther away from finishing.

And anyway.. Why are you SOOOO focused on HOW players play the game anyway?

It's not like it's costing you money for them to play how they like after all...

And players that don't like exploits.. Ok, THEN DON'T USE THEM!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

But I doubt a sensible solution like just taking that mechanic back out is gonna fly..

WE MUST CRUSH THE PLAYER!!! GRAAAAAHHHH!!!!

lets make blade traps do no damage!! oh wait, lets make them do no damage to vultures!!!!

OH!! Better yet!!! let's let them take no damage at all, AND teleport directly onto the player!!!

............. Please dear GOD! Just finish already!!

 

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1 hour ago, Demandred1957 said:

Mmmm, Well, Vedui beat me to making a video that shows off how to game da F! out of the vulture mob. But all I got to say is thanks for the unlimited bones, feathers, and rotten meat pimps!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Just give up, take that broken mechanic out, quit chasing exploits, and finish the game all ready.. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!

There is such a small % of players who exploit their way through the game, and all you are doing is getting farther and farther away from finishing.

And anyway.. Why are you SOOOO focused on HOW players play the game anyway?

It's not like it's costing you money for them to play how they like after all...

And players that don't like exploits.. Ok, THEN DON'T USE THEM!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

But I doubt a sensible solution like just taking that mechanic back out is gonna fly..

WE MUST CRUSH THE PLAYER!!! GRAAAAAHHHH!!!!

lets make blade traps do no damage!! oh wait, lets make them do no damage to vultures!!!!

OH!! Better yet!!! let's let them take no damage at all, AND teleport directly onto the player!!!

............. Please dear GOD! Just finish already!!

 

Well, they did force you to fight the horde instead of running away so mission accomplished. I find it funny myself how excited you get to have figured out a new way to cheese the horde. Just something I personally find humorous.

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1 hour ago, Demandred1957 said:

Mmmm, Well, Vedui beat me to making a video that shows off how to game da F! out of the vulture mob. But all I got to say is thanks for the unlimited bones, feathers, and rotten meat pimps!!!

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Just give up, take that broken mechanic out, quit chasing exploits, and finish the game all ready.. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!

There is such a small % of players who exploit their way through the game, and all you are doing is getting farther and farther away from finishing.

And anyway.. Why are you SOOOO focused on HOW players play the game anyway?

It's not like it's costing you money for them to play how they like after all...

And players that don't like exploits.. Ok, THEN DON'T USE THEM!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

But I doubt a sensible solution like just taking that mechanic back out is gonna fly..

WE MUST CRUSH THE PLAYER!!! GRAAAAAHHHH!!!!

lets make blade traps do no damage!! oh wait, lets make them do no damage to vultures!!!!

OH!! Better yet!!! let's let them take no damage at all, AND teleport directly onto the player!!!

............. Please dear GOD! Just finish already!!

 

No one will take you seriously with rants like that...let alone the devs...

 

FYI blade traps dont trigger demolishers anymore...try focusing on the positive things and you'll sleep better at night...🤣

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5 hours ago, Raestloz said:

Hidden Strike grants 200% extra sneak attack damage on top of the standard 50%, so you're dealing 350% damage per attack

For what it's worth, 1 level of Hidden Strike gives me 400% damage. Tried to attach screenshot, forums gave me the helpful error "7". Whoever coded the forum's try/catch blocks needs to find a new line of work. (Probably the same guy who hard-coded a reaction limit with no option for the software admins to change it.)

 

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39 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

No one will take you seriously with rants like that...let alone the devs...

Puhleeze.. It may be a rant, but I defy you to pick it apart in any meaningful way.

It seems to exactly follow the devs mindset, because they are watching the streamers and every time Jawoodle or some other wanker comes up with a exploit, they are falling all over themselves to patch that exploit.. unless it's a harder one like the floating base exploit..

If they spent less time chasing exploits, and just worked on bugs, and finishing it already, it would make a lot of people much happier.

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Well, they did force you to fight the horde instead of running away so mission accomplished. I find it funny myself how excited you get to have figured out a new way to cheese the horde. Just something I personally find humorous.

I didn't figure it out, that would be Vedui.

But it seems fair to me.. You cheese me, I get to cheese you back...

The main thing was to point out what a waste of time and goodwill from the playerbase it was.

As I said in the post, if you don't like exploits, then don't use them.. it's as simple as that.

wasting all that time to come up with and make a broken mechanic, that took all of a day or two to be defeated once it was noticed...smh.

Thats still not forcing you to face the horde... And why should you be forced to anyway?

Soon enough the original vision of the game (assuming it had one) is going to lost in a endless cycle of cat and mouse between the devs and the players.

 

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12 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Puhleeze.. It may be a rant, but I defy you to pick it apart in any meaningful way.

It seems to exactly follow the devs mindset, because they are watching the streamers and every time Jawoodle or some other wanker comes up with a exploit, they are falling all over themselves to patch that exploit.. unless it's a harder one like the floating base exploit..

If they spent less time chasing exploits, and just worked on bugs, and finishing it already, it would make a lot of people much happier.

I didn't figure it out, that would be Vedui.

But it seems fair to me.. You cheese me, I get to cheese you back...

The main thing was to point out what a waste of time and goodwill from the playerbase it was.

As I said in the post, if you don't like exploits, then don't use them.. it's as simple as that.

wasting all that time to come up with and make a broken mechanic, that took all of a day or two to be defeated once it was noticed...smh.

Thats still not forcing you to face the horde... And why should you be forced to anyway?

Soon enough the original vision of the game (assuming it had one) is going to lost in a endless cycle of cat and mouse between the devs and the players.

 

Lol...others have already explained what the blood moon event is.  It just sounds like you just dont agree which is fine by me.  

 

As far as bug priorities are concerned, I'm sorry your not special nor are Jawoodle or Vedui.  As already stated by others they get to "unintended mechanic behavior" whenever they have time for it.  I emphatize with you though because you lost a strategy you believed in and I know that is a bitter pill to swallow.  If you cant handle change in EA games, dont play them.

 

If you dont believe me regarding bug priorities go stop by the A19 Bug forums and read all of the other bugs being logged/confirmed on a daily basis and realize how low priority exploits like these are truly are.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Well, they did force you to fight the horde instead of running away so mission accomplished. I find it funny myself how excited you get to have figured out a new way to cheese the horde. Just something I personally find humorous.

How did they force u to fight ? U can just run away until 4am without any vehicle and thats not a new thing :D it always was like that. Even on nightmare speed they wont catch u if some awsome coffee is in ur blood 

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