Open Letter to TFP's...

[Dracula]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

 

 

The problem with this is that if you kill the 4 birds, 4 more take their place, and the cycle repeats.  On a base horde situation, I had 12 birds in a single horde night and a similar number of dogs.

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

You're forgetting something. While you are busy killing the birds and maybe even repairing the vehicle, the rest of the Horde is catching up. And with the damage system that's supposed to come in A20, you might even end up with your vehicle not working anymore.

 

Currently it is safer to bail on foot than with the a vehicle. I've tested it. You can escape comfortably on foot unless you have the zombies on nightmare speed. All you need is a college jacket, some high performance running shoes and a stack of coffee on your belt. And if you have "Rule 1: Cardio" at maximum, you won't even need the coffee.

 

The damage system that might exist in A20 is irrelevant since it's not in.  The context I made my reply in is someone else tweaking the birds so there would be less of them and that they were slightly slower than the motorcycle so that if you stayed on roads you'd outrun them.  And considering how long it took the birds in Vedui's video to kill him with a huge pack of them (and the fact they only really did damage because the pack was large enough to stop him so their attacks would hit) changes like those I quoted before essentially means a completely safe horde night.

And yes, you can bail on foot wearing specific gear made for running and light armor and chugging stamina drinks or maxing out specific skills.  Good luck doing that with most players though.  And it's still more dangerous than doing it with a vehicle with the mentioned changes I was replying to.  You can fall and die or sprain/break a leg, run into POIs and world spawns, hit land mines, hit cactuses, accidentally corner yourself with water, etc.

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, Dracula said:

The problem with this is that if you kill the 4 birds, 4 more take their place, and the cycle repeats.  On a base horde situation, I had 12 birds in a single horde night and a similar number of dogs.

The difference is that in the video Vedui had no problem driving around with 4 birds on his neck, sure he got slowed by them and it looked like all hell broke loose. But the 4 birds seemed relatively harmless and he had constant HPs. He only got into trouble when 7 or 8(?) were behind him.

 

[Boidster]

51 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

So I just tested this, I think. Game set to 8 blood moon enemies, and started the horde while sitting on a motorcycle. I actually got 5 vultures at first, maybe because the normal horde wave includes 1 vulture and the game added 4 more as a vehicle penalty? Here's how the testing went:

• Start: 5 vultures, 3 zombies (on motorcycle)
• Kill 1 vulture, remain on foot, game adds a zombie: 4 vultures 4 zombies
• Kill all vultures, game fills in with zombies: 8 zombies
• Jump on motorcycle, no vultures are added: 8 zombies, on motorcycle, able to completely avoid the horde
• Use 'killall' command while on motorcycle, game adds 3 zombies and 5 vultures

So it looks like you can get up to 5 vultures when horde size is set to 8, but possibly that's a gamestage-related quirk with one natural vulture and 4 penalty vultures.

[Dracula]

How are they lessening the number of vultures?  This would help me immensely.

[RipClaw]

40 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

 

 

I did a quick test and had 5 vultures on my heels when played with 8 zombies concurrent. Despite steel armor and maximum points in Pain Tolerance, I suffered almost every critical damage that exists in the game. As I have already written in another post. It's safer to try to avoid the horde on foot.

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

f that is the case...this is yet another reason not to overreact to what's in people's videos until it is experienced directly...

It didn't help that Roland wrote that he showed the video to Madmole and that Madmole then said "Works as intended".

 

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

I did a quick test and had 5 vultures on my heels when played with 8 zombies concurrent. Despite steel armor and maximum points in Pain Tolerance, I suffered almost every critical damage that exists in the game. As I have already written in another post. It's safer to try to avoid the horde on foot.

It didn't help that Roland wrote that he showed the video to Madmole and that Madmole then said "Works as intended".

 

hahaha...right.  Talk about throwing gas on a fire...🤣

[meganoth]

36 minutes ago, Dracula said:

How are they lessening the number of vultures?  This would help me immensely.

You mean the 5 vultures+3 zombies Boidster saw? Essentially that would be the default game. If you are playing single-player and haven't changed the settings yourself you should be getting similar results.

 

If you log into an open server or a server a friend provides this server owner might have changed a lot of settings (including max zombies on horde night per person) and you can't change them.

 

[Dracula]

Just now, meganoth said:

You mean the 5 vultures+3 zombies Boidster saw? Essentially that would be the default game. If you are playing single-player and haven't changed them yourself you should be getting similar results.

 

If you log into an open server or a server a friend provides this server owner might have changed a lot of settings (including max zombies on horde night per person) and you can't change them.

 

I thought there may have been a tweak that could have been made to the game files; alas, no such luck.

[meganoth]

Just now, Dracula said:

I thought there may have been a tweak that could have been made to the game files; alas, no such luck.

Depends on what you want exactly. Lots of stuff is possible by simply editing some xml. From another post you made I thought you already had slowed down the vultures. Or was that somebody else? How about slowing them down even further?

 

 

[Laz Man]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Depends on what you want exactly. Lots of stuff is possible by simply editing some xml. From another post you made I thought you already had slowed down the vultures. Or was that somebody else? How about slowing them down even further?

 

 

That was Demandred...not Dracula....They do have similar forum avatars though....🤣

[meganoth]

5 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

That was Demandred...not Dracula....They do have similar forum avatars though....🤣

Oh right. This means Dracula could just ask Demandred1957.

[Dracula]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

That was Demandred...not Dracula....They do have similar forum avatars though....🤣

I'm lazy and have the same username on multiple forums; avatars are tedious.

 

Regardless; I will see what changes bring and adapt accordingly as the stable version is released.  In the mean time, I'm hesitant to modify the XML until its stable.

[Nfg]

6 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

would you share some screenshots please?

I can when I get a chance but it's just a big solid cube, an iron bar ring with holes for dropping stuff down, and now a spiked roof. Make the inside corners ramps or wedges to allow upgrading the hidden corner block. Then fill with steel when you get time. I normally only lose one or two blocks unless I do a x64 hoard. Then I spend a day, maybe two when early game, mining and make as many molys and grenades as I can each week. Otherwise, you'll have to make a ton of ammo. Although, you can just stand there all night too if you run out of ammo. The hoard would have to takeout 50-100 steel blocks when the ground level is filled. That is never going to happen on a normalish single player hoard night. Then just make it bigger or add multiple towers if extra people are there or playing with nonstock hoards.

[firstedition]

I posted something similar to what the OP said back when a18 came out (or was it a17)?

The Fun Pimps just want you to fight the horde.  They don't want it to be a choice.  Which is really weird because their game seems to be all about handling the situation in the way YOU want.  Except the horde.

It's a huge failing on the part of this development team.  Instead of letting players deal with the problem in the manner they decide (be it having some kind of fortress, digging a bunker, making a kill-tower, outrunning the horde or whatever), they continue to try to railroad the player to this one activity.  Instead of, you know, finishing the game, they just keep fighting with the players over this.  It's crazy.  So now we have zombie vulture missiles instead of a finished game.  Hurray.

But what I think is worse than that is the reaction from these boards.  You see people like this come along all the time, making an account to give some feedback (to a game still in alpha) saying "Why can't I just get in a jeep and outrun the horde?" and the community here dogpiles them and says "git gud or gtfo".  Either you like the changes the Fun Pimps make, or you're told in so many words to trot-off and play minecraft.  Either you like to play the game their way, or you shouldn't be playing the game.

I mean, there are plenty of legitimate questions.

"Why do vultures stop vehicles?"
"Why do zombie vultures move so fast?"
"Why do zombies tunnel through solid rock?"
"Why does zombie damage multiply when more of them attack one object?"
"Why do the zombies automatically know where you are?"
"Why do the zombies know the layout of your base to path to you?"
"Why do all the PoIs play out the same?"
"Why aren't the traders and settlements smashed during Day 7s like mine is?"
"Why is my loot tied to my level?"
"Why does a hardware store only have stone tools?"

The answer to each of those is that the Fun Pimps have systematically nerfed every route through the game so that your optimal strategy is to play the game in the manner they intend.  All those other 'options' that the player might try?  They're WRONG. 

People come in and see this amazing game with all this freedom that the player can have.  An exciting experience where they can decide and execute the strategy on how to deal with the zombie apocalypse... except then they discover that after a patch or two they've been playing it WRONG.  The Fun Pimps do not agree with their playstyle.  So zombie cobras that move through walls are introduced to nerf that playstyle.  And the game is still unfinished.  It's been what, like 7 years?

Oh, and then anyone who comments about it on the boards here is told that they're wrong too.  Either grind up and get your guns in the PoIs and build your concrete cube or trap-tower and play the game how we play it or GTFO.

So, my condolences to you, OP.  Welcome to 7 Days to Die.  This is now your intended experience.  "Enjoy."
 

[Laz Man]

6 minutes ago, firstedition said:

I posted something similar to what the OP said back when a18 came out (or was it a17)?

The Fun Pimps just want you to fight the horde.  They don't want it to be a choice.  Which is really weird because their game seems to be all about handling the situation in the way YOU want.  Except the horde.

It's a huge failing on the part of this development team.  Instead of letting players deal with the problem in the manner they decide (be it having some kind of fortress, digging a bunker, making a kill-tower, outrunning the horde or whatever), they continue to try to railroad the player to this one activity.  Instead of, you know, finishing the game, they just keep fighting with the players over this.  It's crazy.  So now we have zombie vulture missiles instead of a finished game.  Hurray.

But what I think is worse than that is the reaction from these boards.  You see people like this come along all the time, making an account to give some feedback (to a game still in alpha) saying "Why can't I just get in a jeep and outrun the horde?" and the community here dogpiles them and says "git gud or gtfo".  Either you like the changes the Fun Pimps make, or you're told in so many words to trot-off and play minecraft.  Either you like to play the game their way, or you shouldn't be playing the game.

I mean, there are plenty of legitimate questions.

"Why do vultures stop vehicles?"
"Why do zombie vultures move so fast?"
"Why do zombies tunnel through solid rock?"
"Why does zombie damage multiply when more of them attack one object?"
"Why do the zombies automatically know where you are?"
"Why do the zombies know the layout of your base to path to you?"
"Why do all the PoIs play out the same?"
"Why aren't the traders and settlements smashed during Day 7s like mine is?"
"Why is my loot tied to my level?"
"Why does a hardware store only have stone tools?"

The answer to each of those is that the Fun Pimps have systematically nerfed every route through the game so that your optimal strategy is to play the game in the manner they intend.  All those other 'options' that the player might try?  They're WRONG. 

People come in and see this amazing game with all this freedom that the player can have.  An exciting experience where they can decide and execute the strategy on how to deal with the zombie apocalypse... except then they discover that after a patch or two they've been playing it WRONG.  The Fun Pimps do not agree with their playstyle.  So zombie cobras that move through walls are introduced to nerf that playstyle.  And the game is still unfinished.  It's been what, like 7 years?

Oh, and then anyone who comments about it on the boards here is told that they're wrong too.  Either grind up and get your guns in the PoIs and build your concrete cube or trap-tower and play the game how we play it or GTFO.

So, my condolences to you, OP.  Welcome to 7 Days to Die.  This is now your intended experience.  "Enjoy."
 

So much anger...if you had bothered reading the discussions in here people were actually coming up with good ways to handle the change (including the OP) and you come in here with your toxic attitude...

 

[Demandred1957]

7 hours ago, Boidster said:

Not recommended for dead-is-dead players!

Which is the way I try to play it... Everybody talking about "oh, it's just a slight penalty, I want the game to be harder" needs to try permadeath for a while.. you will be changing your tune after you have 40-50 hours into a save, and then you buy it because of a cheesy anti-cheese mechanism..

[Demandred1957]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

The game is also designed for you to die sometimes (I assume. Even most veteran players die from time to time). That is why the game has a death penalty that isn't severe. It still is a penalty for dying so dying doesn't just become a valid method to teleport or remove conditions like a broken leg (many players used it that way in alpha15 and 16). And it tells you you made a mistake. So yes, there is a difference between driving away in complete safety and dying, even if the penalty is harmless: The former simply removes any fear, apprehension, tension, pressure you might have and that is not good for a zombie horror survival game. Success can only elate you when failure is a possibility. 

 

Is a sports game still thrilling and suspenseful when you already know the result? Often it is still interesting to watch for the technical finesse of the players, but the thrill is gone because the suspense, the chance that your team might fail, is missing. A horror survival game also needs you to fear for your life.  You are free to mod the game into safe territory if the suspense is "killing you" (pun intended) but default vanilla game needs and wants that suspense

Try playing permadeath for a while if you think the game is too easy, and dying is a "slight penalty".. I have been trying to play that way for the last 2-3 saves. Nothing like seeing a save you have a lot of time in go down the crapper because you made a mistake and got ganked..

And while it hasn't happened to me yet, I would be super po'd if I got ganked because of a cheesy anti-cheese mechanism.

That's why i'm really glad Vedui recorded that video.

It would have been total rage mode, if after 30-40 hrs in, something went south during a horde, and out of the blue I got mobbed like that on my real permadeath save..

 

 

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

(and the fact they only really did damage because the pack was large enough to stop him so their attacks would hit

Not true. until I reduced their mass, they were stopping the 4x4 with every hit almost with only 5 birds.

Maybe you should try playing "dead is dead" aka permadeath if you think the game isn't challenging enough..

That's the way I have been playing it for the last several saves.

7 hours ago, Dracula said:

I thought there may have been a tweak that could have been made to the game files; alas, no such luck.

it's several different tweaks in several places, basically use word pad in the xml files and use "find" to locate all files with the word vulture in it and adjust to your taste. Everything is in plain English, and though it may take a while, by trial and error you can get the result you want.

[Nfg]

11 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

would you share some screenshots please?

 

Here is a picture of my current A19 base on Day 9, I know I'm slow. The first two layers and corners are already reinforced concrete, only a few blocks of flagstone remain on the outer layers. Right now it's 7x7x4, I'll remove/upgrade the wood and make it higher after day 14 and probably have at least the bottom 2 layers if not the bottom 4 layers to steal by day 21.

 

 

 

This is from my test world. The base (7x7x7 and 3 layers deep) took around 500 steel blocks and 80 spikes to build, with no storage or crafting area since it was just a quick test. It was on nomad difficulty with 35 max alive and a game stage of 265. I used 800 7.62 (full auto m60, no aiming), 75 grenades, 60 molotovs, a few shot gun shells (for birds), and no other defenses. I lost count of how many cops exploded but two demolishers were set off; not by me. When it was over 22 base blocks were missing all on the outside, 3 layer 2 blocks were damaged, non on layer 3, 8 blocks were down to reinforced concrete, and it took 217 steel to repair damaged steel blocks, I didn’t repair the concrete, only a few spikes were damaged. Also I was kinda lazy since it was just a test world and didn’t move around enough, and probably should of build the roof bigger or added sides to it. So to sum up it would take around 25 stacks of iron to build and maybe 3 stacks to repair, which is not hard by that game stage.

 

 

 

 

 

[Demandred1957]

10 minutes ago, Nfg said:

 

Here is a picture of my current A19 base on Day 9, I know I'm slow. The first two layers and corners are already reinforced concrete, only a few blocks of flagstone remain on the outer layers. Right now it's 7x7x4, I'll remove/upgrade the wood and make it higher after day 14.

 

 

 

This is from my test world. The base (7x7x7 and 3 layers deep) took around 500 steel blocks and 80 spikes to build, with no storage or crafting area since it was just a quick test. It was on nomad difficulty with 35 max alive and a game stage of 265. I used 800 7.62 (full auto m60, no aiming), 75 grenades, 60 molotovs, a few shot gun shells (for birds), and no other defenses. I lost count of how many cops exploded but two demolishers were set off; not by me. When it was over 22 base blocks were missing all on the outside, 3 layer 2 blocks were damaged, non on layer 3, 8 blocks were down to reinforced concrete, and it took 217 steel to repair damaged steel blocks, I didn’t repair the concrete, only a few spikes were damaged. Also I was kinda lazy since it was just a test world and didn’t move around enough, and probably should of build the roof bigger or added sides to it.

 

 

 

 

 

That's interesting... Although I think when you get to later stages in the real save, they are going to cut through one spot somewhere and get to the inside where you got that drop chest etc. I'm currently playing on Pregen 01 and there isnt a handy pawnshop to build onto like the one in my video, otherwise I would be doing that base again. Glock9 base ftw!

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, firstedition said:

<...>
It's a huge failing on the part of this development team.  Instead of letting players deal with the problem in the manner they decide (be it having some kind of fortress, digging a bunker, making a kill-tower, outrunning the horde or whatever), they continue to try to railroad the player to this one activity.  Instead of, you know, finishing the game, they just keep fighting with the players over this.  It's crazy.  So now we have zombie vulture missiles instead of a finished game.  Hurray.
<...>

I just want to reply to the above part of your longer post. Its crazy that all the different kinds of ways to deal with the problem are still available in the game.

 

Fortress? Check. Just look at the pictures from Nfg above

 

Digging a bunker? Check. Sure, you have to give them some accessway so they don't dig randomly and yes, you have to fight the horde even in a bunker, but it works. I've done a crafting base and a horde base as a bunker.

 

Kill-tower? Check. At least if you mean a really high tower, where zombies try to climb up the ladders and you shoot them from above? Yes, done that as well.

 

Outrunning the horde? Check. I think it was RestInPeaces who explained you just need running shoes, college jacket and lots of coffee and light armor. This might even be a bit too easy, but it is hard to balance I would assume.

 

[Nfg]

1 minute ago, Demandred1957 said:

That's interesting... Although I think when you get to later stages in the real save, they are going to cut through one spot somewhere and get to the inside where you got that drop chest etc. I'm currently playing on Pregen 01 and there isnt a handy pawnshop to build onto like the one in my video, otherwise I would be doing that base again. Glock9 base ftw!

The AI doesn't magically change on a test world and it doesn’t care about your storage boxes. As long as they don't have a path to you they go into destroy everything mode. This is the same basic design I’ve had since A17, RIP pillar 100 bases, I’ll miss you. :-( I’m more of a base day one with permadeath kinda person. Unless I find the T5 book store, then I’m a base day 2 person with a life time supply of plastic.

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

Which is the way I try to play it... Everybody talking about "oh, it's just a slight penalty, I want the game to be harder" needs to try permadeath for a while.. you will be changing your tune after you have 40-50 hours into a save, and then you buy it because of a cheesy anti-cheese mechanism..

Well, if I make a conscious decision to change my play style, then I absolutely would expect different game mechanics to take on greater or lesser importance. I think vultures need some balance, for sure, but as I showed above it is still possible to avoid the horde on a vehicle, with careful planning. It's not ideal, but we're on an experimental of an alpha - gotta adapt to some things. It's why I avoid DiD play - the game is just too unstable and I don't want to get angry at it and then come here to rant in the forums. I've got other places to rant about other things, I don't need a new one!

[Nfg]

3 hours ago, firstedition said:

And the game is still unfinished.  It's been what, like 7 years?

I probably shouldn’t add fuel to the fire but your right, I also find it odd that people don’t rise up in protest about the mostly new game they get every year for free. 7 years of free updates how dare they.

 

Seriously, do you have any idea how long it takes to develop software? The company I work for has been developing the same software for over 20 years with no signs of stopping. Also we charge a lot of money for updates, so be happy you don’t have pay for yours.

[Demandred1957]

41 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Well, if I make a conscious decision to change my play style, then I absolutely would expect different game mechanics to take on greater or lesser importance. I think vultures need some balance, for sure, but as I showed above it is still possible to avoid the horde on a vehicle, with careful planning. It's not ideal, but we're on an experimental of an alpha - gotta adapt to some things. It's why I avoid DiD play - the game is just too unstable and I don't want to get angry at it and then come here to rant in the forums. I've got other places to rant about other things, I don't need a new one!

Unstable is one thing, but cheesy Mc'cheesum mechanics is another. If the game crashed and wiped my save thats one thing, that would wipe you out regardless of how you played. To me, that's what "unstable" is, and for all it's faults, it's not unstable. If it has crashed on me just because, I don't remember it. Being changed all the time to try and curb exploits isn't unstable. So live bold, and try some permadeath (sorry DiD doesn't have the same final ring to it) for a while. Then you will look at things quite a bit different.