Game balance and progression

[chinagreenelvis]

I think the spawns triggered by a player should reflect that player's level, and the difficulty of the server should be the difficulty at which players begin - rather than a permanent setting.

 

I say this because if I play on default difficulty, I find myself very quickly becoming overpowered to the point where I practically can't die, and there's no challenge. I have to manually increase the difficulty settings in order to find some balance, but that's equally boring since I know exactly when it happens and what I'm getting myself into.

 

Of course, if I start the game out on anything above default settings, I simply don't stand a chance. One false move and I'm dead, usually from some ♥♥♥♥ing vulture.

 

(I tend to play with the intention of not dying at all.)

 

If the triggered-spawns reflect the level of the player that triggers them, then that would mean you could join a server late into the game but still be fine on your own; and if you hang out with higher-level players, you'll find up fighting a mixture of high- and low-level zombies.

[SylenThunder]

If the triggered-spawns reflect the level of the player that triggers them, then that would mean you could join a server late into the game but still be fine on your own; and if you hang out with higher-level players, you'll find up fighting a mixture of high- and low-level zombies.

POI, BM, Wandering Horde, and Sleeper Spawns should be triggered by your gamestage. With some exceptions like the wasteland biome. Or where the BM zeds are calculated for the group instead of the individual.

The gamestage function is supposed to alleviate the previous issue where these groups were scalled based on what day the server was at. Now it doesn't matter what day the server is at when you join.

 

Damage ratio is more of what I think you're concerned with, and that's the true difficulty setting. The default for a18 was dropped a notch from what it has been previously, and this makes the general start a lot easier since it's drawn out more now. However in the long run, it's a detriment to gameplay because you do become OP quite easily early on.

 

Personally, we need more of an effect in which the HP and damage dealt by the zeds is scaled better towards your level. This will balance out more with your personal damage increasing as you level up.

[chinagreenelvis]

I'm not sure what gamestage is compared to level.

 

I've noticed more threatening-looking zombie types spawning as a result of playing longer - it's almost exclusively fatties and bikers now, which is itself a little weird - but even they don't present any real danger. They go down just as easily as the others and don't do much damage if they do manage to hit me; and I haven't even touched Pain Tolerance.

 

I do usually bump up the XP multiplier, but that's because the game is a total grind without it amplified.

[Ghostlight]

gamestage = (your level + days alive) x difficulty multiplier

 

You can see it by hitting tab, then selecting the Multiplayer icon (top right, looks like a small group of people)

 

Difficulty multiplier is 1.2 for default difficulty

 

So basically your gamestage rises slowly as you level up; and also for each day you survive. When you are increasing difficulty, it is that multiplier that is increasing.

 

scavenger="1.0"

adventurer="1.2" (this is default)

nomad="1.5"

warrior="1.7"

survivalist="2.0"

insanes="2.5"

 

The problem is that if you increase difficulty to make your gamestage higher (and hence get more enemies and tougher enemy types), it also makes the enemies tougher and they turn into bullet sponges. The best way to avoid this is to increase your EXP multiplier so you will level faster. This makes GS rise faster without having to set a higher difficulty and thus you avoid getting bullet sponge enemies.

 

I believe a lot of people set EXP to 200% or even 300% so they get a lot of tougher zombies earlier, but they keep difficulty on Scavenger so those enemies are easy (and thus fun) to fight.

[chinagreenelvis]

I think I know what the problem is: if it takes game days survived into account (rather than IRL time survived), expanding game day cycles to 120 minutes will make the difficulty progression slower.

 

I don't like day cycles moving too fast, so I make them twice as long, and this apparently makes my gamestage low even though my XP is at 300%, so I'm progressing faster than the game difficulty is catching up with me. (Not much fun.)

 

I guess my suggestion at this point would be to make the gamestage dependent upon time survived (equivalent to default day cycles, I.E. IRL hours) rather than in-game days.

[Laz Man]

I think I know what the problem is: if it takes game days survived into account (rather than IRL time survived), expanding game day cycles to 120 minutes will make the difficulty progression slower.

 

I don't like day cycles moving too fast, so I make them twice as long, and this apparently makes my gamestage low even though my XP is at 300%, so I'm progressing faster than the game difficulty is catching up with me. (Not much fun.)

 

I guess my suggestion at this point would be to make the gamestage dependent upon time survived (equivalent to default day cycles, I.E. IRL hours) rather than in-game days.

 

It works fine on default settings for SP. I'm on day 60ish with a GS of 125ish (60 minute days). My experience gain (e.g. GS gain) is probably slower when compared to other builds as my traps do most of the killing on horde nights. I'm using a Perception/Intelligence build.

[chinagreenelvis]

I'm sure it works fine on default settings, but increasing the days to 120 minutes obviously throws it off. Which is why I say the the numbers involved should scale up with an increase in that setting.

 

If the days are set to 60 minutes, its factor in the gamestage progresion should be normal. If the days are set to 120 minutes, that factor in the gamestage progression should be doubled.

[RipClaw]

I'm sure it works fine on default settings, but increasing the days to 120 minutes obviously throws it off. Which is why I say the the numbers involved should scale up with an increase in that setting.

 

If the days are set to 60 minutes, its factor in the gamestage progresion should be normal. If the days are set to 120 minutes, that factor in the gamestage progression should be doubled.

 

The reason why they think you are overpowered is not because of the 120 minute days but because you are playing on default. The game is balanced for Nomad. The default difficulty setting is Adventurer which is a little bit lower.

 

If you play on 120 minute days you get more levels per day than someone who plays on 60 minute days. Therefore the gamestage rises about 1.5 times faster in comparison.

[Laz Man]

The reason why they think you are overpowered is not because of the 120 minute days but because you are playing on default. The game is balanced for Nomad. The default difficulty setting is Adventurer which is a little bit lower.

 

If you play on 120 minute days you get more levels per day than someone who plays on 60 minute days. Therefore the gamestage rises about 1.5 times faster in comparison.

 

It is also worth mentioning that horde nights last longer with longer days. This can result in depleting the set number of zeds sent at the player sooner than the 4am stop sign. This will vary depending on how efficient players are at killing the horde of course. 😎

[chinagreenelvis]

The reason why they think you are overpowered is not because of the 120 minute days but because you are playing on default. The game is balanced for Nomad. The default difficulty setting is Adventurer which is a little bit lower.

 

Strange that the default setting then wouldn't be Nomad.

 

If you play on 120 minute days you get more levels per day than someone who plays on 60 minute days. Therefore the gamestage rises about 1.5 times faster in comparison.

 

If gamestage is also based on days survived, then the ratio would be off and gamestage would be slower in comparison to actual time played, as well as skill advancement. I'd be getting stronger a little faster than the gamestage is keeping up. So in my view, it shouldn't be tied to days survived as much as *time* survived - real world time, actual hours played. Then the ratio would never be off, and gamestage would progress as fast as skill advancement.

 

It is also worth mentioning that horde nights last longer with longer days. This can result in depleting the set number of zeds sent at the player sooner than the 4am stop sign. This will vary depending on how efficient players are at killing the horde of course.

 

I've noticed this. It did make me feel pretty badass, but at this point they're no longer a challenge at all, really, and I'm only at day 28. So I'd have to manually adjust the difficulty like I've been doing in a game I have going with friends, and even then we're still progressing somewhat faster than having it even on the highest levels by day 42.

[RipClaw]

Strange that the default setting then wouldn't be Nomad.

 

As far as I know it was lowered to Adventurer before the release of the Alpha 18 experimental because the test players thought that the game on Nomad was too hard with the new rage mode.

 

If gamestage is also based on days survived, then the ratio would be off and gamestage would be slower in comparison to actual time played, as well as skill advancement. I'd be getting stronger a little faster than the gamestage is keeping up. So in my view, it shouldn't be tied to days survived as much as *time* survived - real world time, actual hours played. Then the ratio would never be off, and gamestage would progress as fast as skill advancement.

 

But that would defeat the purpose of setting the day length. You set the days longer to ease the time pressure and shorter to increase the time pressure.

 

There are players who set the day length to 10 minutes to make the gamestage rise faster without turing the zombies into bullet sponges. This possibility would be taken away from them if the real game time would be used for the calculation of the gamestage.

 

You also seem to think that progress is always the same. The progress of a player depends on many factors. Therefore every game is different.

 

I've noticed this. It did make me feel pretty badass, but at this point they're no longer a challenge at all, really, and I'm only at day 28. So I'd have to manually adjust the difficulty like I've been doing in a game I have going with friends, and even then we're still progressing somewhat faster than having it even on the highest levels by day 42.

 

With a high gamestage this is reversed. With the gamestage the number of zombies also increases.

 

Someone with a 60-minute day does not experience the full horde. The horde ends at 4 am no matter how many zombies you've killed by then.

 

I tested it once with my dart trap base. After a gamestage 300 horde my dart traps are almost empty on a 120 minute day. On a 60 minute day the dart traps are still half full. The ammunition consumption is also higher because you have to deal with more zombies.

[pApA^LeGBa]

I see part of the the problem with the low number of Z´s outside of POI´s. It´s an empty world. If you would have a Z on every corner things would be more difficult.

[chinagreenelvis]

So, are game days survived a factor in zombie difficulty or not?

 

If it is, then shouldn't making the day cycle 10 minutes make them harder faster?

[Kalen]

The reason why they think you are overpowered is not because of the 120 minute days but because you are playing on default. The game is balanced for Nomad. The default difficulty setting is Adventurer which is a little bit lower.

 

Where did you see this? I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned by madmole that the game is balanced for the default settings.

[RipClaw]

Where did you see this? I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned by madmole that the game is balanced for the default settings.

 

Roland mentioned it once here:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133420-Alpha-18-zombies-are-too-tanky-early-on&p=1057905&viewfull=1#post1057905

 

Madmole said in this post that the default was lowered to adventurer to help ease players into the game:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=1034366&viewfull=1#post1034366

[Liesel Weppen]

So, are game days survived a factor in zombie difficulty or not?

 

If it is, then shouldn't making the day cycle 10 minutes make them harder faster?

It sticks together.

 

As Ghostlight posted formula:

gamestage = (your level + days alive) x difficulty multiplier

 

If you play on 120 minute days the "days alive" increases slower in real time then on 10 minute days.

 

So lets say you start and play for 2 hours and gain 5 level ups in that time. After the 2 hours your gamestage will be:

120 minute days: (5 + 1) * 1.2 = 7

10 minte days: (5 + 12) * 1.2 = 20

[Kalen]

Roland mentioned it once here:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133420-Alpha-18-zombies-are-too-tanky-early-on&p=1057905&viewfull=1#post1057905

 

Madmole said in this post that the default was lowered to adventurer to help ease players into the game:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=1034366&viewfull=1#post1034366

 

Ah cool, thanks... learn something new every day!

[Roland]

The developers consider Nomad the "normal" playing level and everything is balanced with Nomad in mind. The default starting difficulty is Adventurer which is -1 from Nomad. This change was made because when first starting out a slightly more forgiving world is better until the player learns the basics of the game. Also the devs believe that it is more rewarding to players to feel a need to turn the difficulty up one step rather than turn it down one step.

[Laz Man]

The developers consider Nomad the "normal" playing level and everything is balanced with Nomad in mind. The default starting difficulty is Adventurer which is -1 from Nomad. This change was made because when first starting out a slightly more forgiving world is better until the player learns the basics of the game. Also the devs believe that it is more rewarding to players to feel a need to turn the difficulty up one step rather than turn it down one step.

 

This need to be stickied in the a18.balance thread...

[TWORDY]

I really love playing with a shotgun while looting houses at Nomad difficulty, it doesn`t feel like a pellet gun. Damn single shot usually takes down radiated zombies at a point blank headshot at once. How not necessary refreshing but always amazing, and I did not even buff the weapon.

 

Some people suggested removing most of stamina dependance thing in majority or entirely. I would love to see this gone at some point because its another grinding/stopping power/frustration inducing factor that has to be taken into consideration well. Slower movement with diffrent armour as well as animation sets of weapon swings etc. is just enough to balance the things out. I`m talking mostly about combat.

 

Running and the use of god damn axe might stay for me as it is for now. Zombies could rage more often if the stamina wouldn`t be a stopping factor then some new, actually interesting mechanics could be implemented in place. I believe limitted stamina has ended around 2006/2007 with (gosh, gonna get hate because of it) Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Money talks ladies and gentelmens.

[HungryZombie]

I really love playing with a shotgun while looting houses at Nomad difficulty, it doesn`t feel like a pellet gun. Damn single shot usually takes down radiated zombies at a point blank headshot at once. How not necessary refreshing but always amazing, and I did not even buff the weapon.

 

Some people suggested removing most of stamina dependance thing in majority or entirely. I would love to see this gone at some point because its another grinding/stopping power/frustration inducing factor that has to be taken into consideration well. Slower movement with diffrent armour as well as animation sets of weapon swings etc. is just enough to balance the things out. I`m talking mostly about combat.

 

Running and the use of god damn axe might stay for me as it is for now. Zombies could rage more often if the stamina wouldn`t be a stopping factor then some new, actually interesting mechanics could be implemented in place. I believe limitted stamina has ended around 2006/2007 with (gosh, gonna get hate because of it) Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Money talks ladies and gentelmens.

 

Skryim was released 2011 and it has a limited stamina mechanic.

 

Witcher 3 was released 2015 and it has stamina as well.

[chinagreenelvis]

It sticks together.

 

As Ghostlight posted formula:

gamestage = (your level + days alive) x difficulty multiplier

 

If you play on 120 minute days the "days alive" increases slower in real time then on 10 minute days.

 

So lets say you start and play for 2 hours and gain 5 level ups in that time. After the 2 hours your gamestage will be:

120 minute days: (5 + 1) * 1.2 = 7

10 minte days: (5 + 12) * 1.2 = 20

 

So what I said before is correct: expanding the day cycle length makes zombies easier to kill for longer.

 

I feel like this is just fundamentally wrong, and there should at least be some kind of option to attach the difficulty increase to time survived (or hell, even time played) rather than days survived.

 

I mean, just because I die doesn't mean I suddenly want zombie difficulty to stop progressing. So what does survival have to do with it? And just because I want days to last longer doesn't mean I want zombies to advance slower.

[RipClaw]

So what I said before is correct: expanding the day cycle length makes zombies easier to kill for longer.

 

I feel like this is just fundamentally wrong, and there should at least be some kind of option to attach the difficulty increase to time survived (or hell, even time played) rather than days survived.

 

I mean, just because I die doesn't mean I suddenly want zombie difficulty to stop progressing. So what does survival have to do with it? And just because I want days to last longer doesn't mean I want zombies to advance slower.

 

You can adjust this in your game by adjusting e.g. the multiplier for the gamestage in the gamestages.xml file. You can also set daysAliveChangeWhenKilled to 0 so that death does not affect the gamestage.

 

If you want to change the progress of the game you can generate the gamestages.xml and the entitygroups.xml here:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P58Ewih074DzsA8OnROUT0CN6jcBnoX81bdiLOtnN2k/edit#gid=1725375289

[chinagreenelvis]

You can adjust this in your game by adjusting e.g. the multiplier for the gamestage in the gamestages.xml file. You can also set daysAliveChangeWhenKilled to 0 so that death does not affect the gamestage.

 

If you want to change the progress of the game you can generate the gamestages.xml and the entitygroups.xml here:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P58Ewih074DzsA8OnROUT0CN6jcBnoX81bdiLOtnN2k/edit#gid=1725375289

 

Ah, cool. I'll fiddle with this, thanks!

[Boidster]

You can also set daysAliveChangeWhenKilled to 0 so that death does not affect the gamestage.

 

I need to do this. I almost never die to a zombie; it's always my own stupidity, which will persist regardless of how low my GS is. (._.)