Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[ThanVanMon]

Do you survive without basebuilding? Tell me your secret.

 

I stayed at the top of a restaurant for 64 days til map was done and we quit after that horde:). Building was still standing and we didnt even reinforced it much. We maxed amount of zombies on hordenights too. The biggest difference compared to before is that there is no threat whatsoever inbetween the hordes. They appear like clockwork every 7th day, biggest struggle is to shoot them with the framedrop tbh.

Its all about the amount of bullets you have. Earlier alphas with smelly food, more heat etc made em come nonstop, was challenging and fun.

Everything had a purpose compared to now.

[Shin]

This game used to be a survival crafting basebuilding game with zombies. Now its a zombie shooter whith some optional crafting and building, and not many zombies.

 

So true

[Lightingfast29]

So true

They need to change it back. So that zombies spawn more and are more of a threat.

 

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Zombies are not even a threat anymore. They need to be more of a threat.

[RipClaw]

These things have been true for multiple alphas. People have used a fortified ranger station as a horde night place since I joined. That is not a problem or change for A18.

 

The problem is this tactic works way too well now.

 

Do you know which base type is currently spreading on Youtube? You build a pit and let the zombies fall into it. Then you throw in a few grenades in and kill all the zombies at once.

 

Creative basebuilders have stopped thinking about clever base designs. Everybody's just craving for more powerful weapons and bigger explosions. And do you know where to find the same phenomenon? In shooter games.

 

Let's not swap apples for oranges. Will it work for that player on his day 70?

 

Most likely.

 

The number of zombies per horde is increasing but there are no more zombies simultaneously on day 70. He already has radioactive zombies. The demolisher shouldn't be a problem for her as he only makes holes in the street.

 

Only the consumption of grenades and ammunition will increase but that is all.

 

"No fancy base"? We must have different definitions. He said he nearly got breached (and required a half day of repair), and it isn't done because he needs to add all kinds of traps. I'm not sure how that proves your point.

 

We certainly have very different definitions.

 

In A17 my base was so effective that I could have gone AFK without having to worry that even a single zombie could survive the traps. In A18, however, the same base would be destroyed because the blade traps would trigger the explosion of the demolisher.

 

I must therefore think of an effective way to arrange the traps to kill the demolisher without triggering the explosion. Dart traps seem to be the way to go here but each individual dart trap does little damage. Therefore I will probably need about 20 dart traps.

 

If we go back to the original quote, he said it used to be a survival crafting basebuilding game with zombies. None of that has been removed, and I don't see how it has been made "optional." Can you survive just as a shooter, with or without a reinforced POI? Sure...for a while. (And, again, that has been true before.) Does that negate the rest? No.

 

All elements are still present but the balance between the elements has shifted. Weapons have become much more important and everything else in comparison is of course much less important.

[Jedo]

We certainly have very different definitions.

 

In A17 my base was so effective that I could have gone AFK without having to worry that even a single zombie could survive the traps. In A18, however, the same base would be destroyed because the blade traps would trigger the explosion of the demolisher.

 

I must therefore think of an effective way to arrange the traps to kill the demolisher without triggering the explosion. Dart traps seem to be the way to go here but each individual dart trap does little damage. Therefore I will probably need about 20 dart traps.

We definitely have lost each other when you tie "AFK" base into "fancy/creative" base. Furthermore, the changes ought to push you to work harder to come up with the same base, but apparently you see the new challenge as "eliminating" basebuilding.

[Technech]

Before you actualy had something to do in your base. Now not so much. Farming is a joke, cooking is a joke (too manny perks or shematics needed). Crafting is utterly ruined. So, you just stare at the wall at night. That is, if you had to stay inside at night annyways. I just run around all night trying to find Zs, but I hardly find anny.

So, basebuilding is an option due to:

1: no need to stay inside during nightime.

2: Nothing to do in your base once its built.

3: Anny POI wil do for hordnight, firepower is king.

 

To fix:

1: More roaming Zs at night

2: Make crafting (and farming) usefull again. (Id gladly spamcraft to see if I can get lucky with the random stats on tools and such if the recipees was not so fing expensive.)

3: duno, but fixing 1 and 2 would sortow fix 3, as you would want to defend your base, as you need it and enjoy doing stuff inside.

[HungryZombie]

I think the point to building a base should always be because you WANT to. Not because you HAVE to.

[Kalen]

We definitely have lost each other when you tie "AFK" base into "fancy/creative" base. Furthermore, the changes ought to push you to work harder to come up with the same base, but apparently you see the new challenge as "eliminating" basebuilding.

 

Saying base building is eliminated is a bit of hyperbole. But the truth is base building, for many, isn't as fun or rewarding as it used to be. Just speaking for myself... I used to build fairly elaborate bases (to me they were) to fight hordes. I did this for several reasons... but mostly survival and fun.

 

Now, I don't need a base as much for survival. The first couple of hordes I can just fight in the street or an unfortified POI because I have hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds of ammo. Later hordes only requires a stronger POI. I've done this up to day 80ish so far.

 

Building is also less fun because a lot of hard work is so easily wiped out by demolishers. Sure I can build better defenses to account for them, but at the end of the day, its just not as rewarding to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm still enjoying the game... I'm just not building large bases any more.

[Jugginator]

 

That the base building is unnecessary to survive is shown in this video:

 

 

All that counts in A18 is obviously that you have enough ammo and enough grenades.

 

issues I see with that video though is he's clearly playing on default difficulty levels, there's no way he's running 64 count spawning on day 35 and only seeing basic feral zombies at the beginning at that gamestage, it must be a very low difficulty, and they're not nightmare speed.

[RipClaw]

We definitely have lost each other when you tie "AFK" base into "fancy/creative" base. Furthermore, the changes ought to push you to work harder to come up with the same base, but apparently you see the new challenge as "eliminating" basebuilding.

 

I don't associate AFK with a fancy base but that there is a recognizable strategy behind the design of the base. Shooting down and throwing grenades is not a strategy.

 

I've already read several times that players don't build a base anymore because the demolisher would destroy it anyways.

That's what kills base building.

 

I don't shy away from the challenge and will probably be successful in the end but it's a mockery. Someone who invests a lot of time, work and ressources has more problems in the end than someone who just stands on a roof of a POI and shoots down.

 

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issues I see with that video though is he's clearly playing on default difficulty levels, there's no way he's running 64 count spawning on day 35 and only seeing basic feral zombies at the beginning at that gamestage, it must be a very low difficulty, and they're not nightmare speed.

 

It is sprint speed and he plays on warrior. I've seen the stream.

[Ganeden]

That the base building is unnecessary to survive is shown in this video:

 

 

All that counts in A18 is obviously that you have enough ammo and enough grenades.

 

You've actually been able to do this since at least A15 (when I first started playing). It's less appealing to me now though because zombies do practically zero damage to your base if you have a design that keeps them going in a loop.

[Volstag]

For what it's worth, I think this is the best Alpha I've played (and I've been around since A8). I haven't had this much fun with 7DTD since, I dunno, A15 or A14.

 

I really like the concept of sleepers, but having one appear in nearly every closet, or up in the rafters / false ceilings, is really gamey. Like, how did they get up there? It simply ceases to be a surprise once you've gone through the same POI a handful of times.

 

I too would like to see way more zombies outside. In my perfect 7DTD world, I'd like more variety. In some towns, most of the zeds are outside. In others, most might be inside. Some towns will feature a combination of both. Some towns will be nearly zed free, while others might be swarmed with zeds. There's so many ways to mix & match things (well, in theory).

 

Still though, I have to tip my hat to TFP. A18 is really a blast. I've been having so much fun with it as of late.

[Jedo]

Now, I don't need a base as much for survival. The first couple of hordes I can just fight in the street or an unfortified POI because I have hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds of ammo. Later hordes only requires a stronger POI. I've done this up to day 80ish so far.

As I read this, I heard in the background those years of cries: "Not enough brass for ammo! We can't keep up! TFP is punishing us!" I'm sure they will adjust the amount of ammo back down, but you can't complain about getting what you asked for. (At the least there ought to be an admission, "We were wrong to want this.")

 

Building is also less fun because a lot of hard work is so easily wiped out by demolishers. Sure I can build better defenses to account for them, but at the end of the day, its just not as rewarding to me.

I've already read several times that players don't build a base anymore because the demolisher would destroy it anyways.

That's what kills base building.

 

I don't shy away from the challenge and will probably be successful in the end but it's a mockery. Someone who invests a lot of time, work and ressources has more problems in the end than someone who just stands on a roof of a POI and shoots down.

I do not understand how you could say "building is less rewarding because zombies destroy my work." There are so many solutions for this already in the game in the form of sliders. Also, that's the point.

 

I don't associate AFK with a fancy base but that there is a recognizable strategy behind the design of the base. Shooting down and throwing grenades is not a strategy.

What was the strategy before traps were introduced two alphas ago? Campfires and spikes? Spamming those around your base is a strategy?

 

Also, throughout history, fortresses and castles have been built so that they last long enough for you to shoot enough arrows, catapult fire, or pour hot oil on your enemies before they breach. Literally the strategy. The trick was to get your enemy to be where you wanted them (i.e., the front, like in Helm's Deep).

[Kalen]

As I read this, I heard in the background those years of cries: "Not enough brass for ammo! We can't keep up! TFP is punishing us!" I'm sure they will adjust the amount of ammo back down, but you can't complain about getting what you asked for. (At the least there ought to be an admission, "We were wrong to want this.")

 

 

You may hear that in the background, but not from me. I make no judgement good or bad about the amount ammo. I'm simply stating a fact that more ammo means its easier to survive.

 

 

I do not understand how you could say "building is less rewarding because zombies destroy my work." There are so many solutions for this already in the game in the form of sliders. Also, that's the point.

 

You really don't have to understand it. It's my opinion, nothing more. For me, it's less fun. As I said earlier, sure I could devise new strategies to deal with demolishers... but I just decided it wasn't worth it to me. It was easier to just fortify a poi and burn through ammo. I'm not telling you that you should do this... I'm just saying thats what I decided

[Volstag]

And looking at it gameplay wise, wandering zombies in towns weren't something that was actually hard to deal with. Back then me and my friends would just run through the town, kill every zombie, and then loot buildings mostly hastle free. Now though if you wanna loot through buildings you have to deal with the zombies while you are looting. It just feels more tense looting now than the prior ways. If anything, maybe they need the sleepers to act faster due to your presence.

 

I still miss the huge wandering hordes of bygone alphas but you're absolutely correct. Show up in town, round up all the zeds, go into my rote pattern of killing them all via the bow or melee. Rinse and repeat.... then loot at your leisure. With the new combat mechanics, it likely would be way more challenging though (which is good).

 

I still think a combination is the best approach. Fewer zeds inside, more outside. More wandering hordes.

 

Unfortunately, I think the ultimate problem is the Unity engine itself. It simply can't deal with dozens / scores of zeds being spawned in houses and outside. It used to cause all manner of weird spawning issues back in earlier alphas..... like the 7th day horde wouldn't materialize if there was a roaming horde still active in the world.

 

-V

[Jedo]

You really don't have to understand it. It's my opinion, nothing more. For me, it's less fun. As I said earlier, sure I could devise new strategies to deal with demolishers... but I just decided it wasn't worth it to me. It was easier to just fortify a poi and burn through ammo. I'm not telling you that you should do this... I'm just saying thats what I decided

Lack of understanding aside, you could turn down zombie block damage.

[Kalen]

Lack of understanding aside, you could turn down zombie block damage.

 

I did.... I actually play on with the lowest setting for zombie block damage because I like walls to mean something. Still doesn't change the fact that I don't find building a base nearly as rewarding as I once did.

[Kattla]

The problem is this tactic works way too well now.

 

Do you know which base type is currently spreading on Youtube? You build a pit and let the zombies fall into it. Then you throw in a few grenades in and kill all the zombies at once.

 

Creative basebuilders have stopped thinking about clever base designs. Everybody's just craving for more powerful weapons and bigger explosions. And do you know where to find the same phenomenon? In shooter games.

 

A big latrine we dump zombies into and flush with grenades.

To whoever came up with that idea, for you ->

[RipClaw]

I do not understand how you could say "building is less rewarding because zombies destroy my work." There are so many solutions for this already in the game in the form of sliders. Also, that's the point.

 

It is less rewarding because you get no advantage from building a base and they destroy my work as a bonus.

If you have to use the sliders to build a base where you don't have to use firearms then there is something wrong with the game.

 

What was the strategy before traps were introduced two alphas ago? Campfires and spikes? Spamming those around your base is a strategy?

 

The AI was too simple for big strategies but with deep trenches you could steer the zombies a little bit but not very precise. The new AI made more strategies possible.

 

But you have to admit that there used to be more different kinds of bases. Especially melee bases have become rare.

 

Also, throughout history, fortresses and castles have been built so that they last long enough for you to shoot enough arrows, catapult fire, or pour hot oil on your enemies before they breach. Literally the strategy. The trick was to get your enemy to be where you wanted them (i.e., the front, like in Helm's Deep).

 

If you believe that a castle consisted only of walls and towers, you have quite a gap in your knowledge.

 

It had several levels of defense e.g. with choke points and murder holes.

 

Do you know e.g. the Zwinger ? There is no English word for this German term but it describes a death zone between two defensive walls through which the attackers had to pass if they wanted to get to the inner part of the castle. Pretty much like a funnel base.

[Jedo]

It is less rewarding because you get no advantage from building a base and they destroy my work as a bonus.

If you have to use the sliders to build a base where you don't have to use firearms then there is something wrong with the game.

This is nonsense, and it is only in your mind. Personally, I like playing zombies always walk since they introduced that option. I don't think that makes anything wrong with the game. In fact, it means that I can play how I want without marginalizing other options.

 

The AI was too simple for big strategies but with deep trenches you could steer the zombies a little bit but not very precise. The new AI made more strategies possible.

 

But you have to admit that there used to be more different kinds of bases. Especially melee bases have become rare.

"The new AI made more strategies possible" and "there used to be more different kinds of bases"? These two things don't make sense together.

 

If you believe that a castle consisted only of walls and towers, you have quite a gap in your knowledge.

 

It had several levels of defense e.g. with choke points and murder holes.

 

Do you know e.g. the Zwinger ? There is no English word for this German term but it describes a death zone between two defensive walls through which the attackers had to pass if they wanted to get to the inner part of the castle. Pretty much like a funnel base.

Oh, you mean choke points and murder holes and the Zwinger which allowed more opportunities to shoot at the assailants before hand-to-hand combat inside the castle was necessary? Definitely still supports my counter to your point.

[Jugginator]

 

 

It is sprint speed and he plays on warrior. I've seen the stream.

 

Low gamestage, sprint speed and on warrior. His weapons were 1 or 2 tapping zombies, of course he can just run in the open. He's fully modded out geared out and everything. Nightmare speed and Insane is made for that. He could have had 9,000 zombies spawning and all he had to do was jog around. I got logged out typing another response, but I don't get why people are so stuck on if their base isn't 100% invincible then building is worthless. Really? Come on.

[Technech]

The base used to be the place for crafting. I wanted to have somewere safe for my workbenches and forges, and a safe place to craft, mostly during night. Now, crafting is dead, so no need for a base, a small hordbase or even a POI will do just fine. Make crafting great again!

[Laz Man]

OP, your post is very well written and I can relate to at least some of your feelings. I could be wrong but I get a sense that you really enjoyed the very open sandbox nature of previous alphas. There is something to be said about the freedom to do what you please at whatever pace that you want in open sandbox games.

 

In past alphas (been playing since Alpha 6), we pretty much were thrust into a zombie filled world with very little direction aside from just surviving. Gameplay consisted of killing reoccurring biome specific zombie spawns and the occasional one time static zombie spawns in some POIs (custom POIs only?) while preparing for the 7 day horde.

 

Gameplay was alot more simpler and causal back then. Loot, gather, craft, survive traditional zombie types (hornet is the exception to this 😂), prepare for reoccurring wave of zombies every 7 days. The zombie counts felt much higher back then, probably due to graphic demands which were much lower and the rate of respawn was much higher, especially in the wasteland biome and hub city at coordinates 0,0.

 

I do have many fond memories of those days and do miss some of it. However, looking back I can see how one dimensional the gameplay was and understand why it was changed.

 

More thoughts on this later as its late... keep surviving all!!! 😎👍

[RipClaw]

Low gamestage, sprint speed and on warrior. His weapons were 1 or 2 tapping zombies, of course he can just run in the open. He's fully modded out geared out and everything. Nightmare speed and Insane is made for that. He could have had 9,000 zombies spawning and all he had to do was jog around. I got logged out typing another response, but I don't get why people are so stuck on if their base isn't 100% invincible then building is worthless. Really? Come on.

 

It's not about the base being 100% invincible but a defense should never be completely broken during the horde. If I die during the horde because the defense fails it doesn't matter if it's at the beginning of the horde or at the end of the horde.

 

I don't know why you want to have the feeling of fear, despair and helplessness during the horde but for me these are very negative emotions. So I want to build my defense as strong as possible so I don't have to experience those emotions.

 

The problem I have is that the base design becomes a minor matter once you have enough ammo and grenades. I could just as well stand on a big concrete block during the horde. It wouldn't make any difference.

[RipClaw]

This is nonsense, and it is only in your mind. Personally, I like playing zombies always walk since they introduced that option. I don't think that makes anything wrong with the game. In fact, it means that I can play how I want without marginalizing other options.

 

I would agree with you if it was officially said that it is a shooter but that has always been denied. So it should also be possible to play the game on default settings without firearms and that also applies to horde night.

 

"The new AI made more strategies possible" and "there used to be more different kinds of bases"? These two things don't make sense together.

 

It makes sense when you look at all changes between A16 and A17

 

Group block damage and increased block damage in general has eliminated almost all melee base designs in A17 and most of the designs where you depend on a single wall to protect your base. And the demolisher is certainly not going to help change that. He does 500 block damage per hit and when he explodes you certainly don't want to stand next to him.

 

Funnel bases and bases that generally use zombie pathfinding now work better than with the old AI.

 

I tested a funnel base in A16 and had to dig deep trenches around the base to get the zombies to run into the entrance. Still, more than enough zombies fell into the trenches and did damage down there.

 

Oh, you mean choke points and murder holes and the Zwinger which allowed more opportunities to shoot at the assailants before hand-to-hand combat inside the castle was necessary? Definitely still supports my counter to your point.

 

Your depiction sounded to me more like these fantasy movies where a big army rushes towards the walls of a castle and the defenders desperately shoot down from the walls.

 

The Zwinger is a bit more smart than that. It forces attackers to give up their cover. You may not only shoot from the battlements at the attackers in the Zwinger. There are hidden entrances through which defenders can then get into the Zwinger and enclose the attackers. The murderer holes were mainly used to pour boiling fat over attackers.

 

The defense of a castle was clearly more complex than just a thick wall from which one shoots down.

You should check out the Shadiversity Youtube Channel. There you will learn a lot about medieval defences.