Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[Ghostlight]

The melee in 18 is a shining example of terrible programming. The distance you can get hit is absolutely bizarre and simply terrible.

 

Its easily seen when you play A16. They utterly ruined the melee hit detection in 17 and 18 = go play 16 and see.

 

This cannot be denied. Melee has been terrible since A17. I got used to it, but it's still terrible.

[Ghostlight]

The thing TFP did that ruined the game in many ways was they listened to people who had already exhausted the game and were exploiting it.

 

TFP listened to those people. And it was stupid. They listened to people who played the game long who knew how to cheat the game.

 

That's not how you develop a game. You don't change your game mid-development based on what people who have over-played the game already are telling you. There's a very certain point where exploiters don't need to be listened to.

 

And thats what TFP did = They listened to cheaters who said "You just need to craft 100 axes" and they removed LBD. Very dumb way to develop a game.

 

They also listened to the bad/unskilled players. Players who were speccing entirely into non-combat skills then getting owned in POIs and crying they were too hard for example. Just look at the nerf to POI zombies. POIs are a joke now, and hardly any threat whatsoever until your GS hits a ridiculous value. On top of that they added Junk Turrets, my God, the most comically OP item I've seen ever as far as clearing POIs goes. Might as well have removed all zombies from indoors and just open a straight path to the loot room.

[Ghostlight]

I recently tested the biker zombie on nightmare and he caught up to me and hit me from behind while I ran from him. That’s at least one zombie type. Also if you don’t want to be faster than them then wear armor and don’t take movement bonuses. Then you’ll have a situation where you need to build a base.

 

Don’t go to the trader.

Start scrapping every weapon you find.

 

Translation: Play the game in a completely stupid way and many of its worst failings will disappear. Oh yeah I forgot, this is called "role-playing". LMAO.

 

And you're wrong, no zombie can catch a player unless the player is stupid enough to run along a road.

[Ghostlight]

Gotta disagree here... I played all 17.4 & 18, up until I quit on 30 minute days. *THAT* had a little pressure. In my final playthrough, I went ahead and switched to 60 minute days... I went practically bat-♥♥♥♥ crazy at nights waiting for the sun to come up.

 

Why did you wait? A18 is zero threat at night. Just go about your normal business.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

This week I will introduce a friend to 7d2d, and Im worried about what he will say when he tries to hit stuff.

And I have no problem doing it right, once you get used to it its easy, it just.... doesnt feel right.

 

Tell him to just stand and wait till the zombie does its first swing (which it will do laughably far away from the player and hit nothing) then move in and do whatever he likes to it. That's how I taught a friend who was WTF'ing about the crap melee.

[Ghostlight]

You paid to be part of a developing game's development process. The dev's first priority is to get things tested and get feedback and see how things are working and that is not well accomplished by giving players the means to remove the things the devs want tested.

 

I can actually get behind this sentiment. It's one of the reasons I mod as little as possible and complain on the forums about things I dislike instead. However I'd make 2 points in reply:

 

1) The devs seem unusually non-receptive to constructive criticism.

 

2) If you are going to try a planned change on us, PUT THE WHOLE CHANGE IN so we can test the full effect. Prime example: IN A18, zombie numbers in general got nerfed to hell outside horde night, or became far too dependant on GS, not sure which. Point is there's very few zombies in your zombie game now. When people complained, they have basically been told it's a work in progress and the change was made in preparation for some encounter system that will make it feel like zombies are everywhere. SO ADD THAT DAMN ENCOUNTER SYSTEM IN THE SAME BUILD YOU NERF ZOMBIE NUMBERS!!!!! Nerfing the zombie count without adding the complimentary system just means we have to play for months with an empty world, no challenge, laughably non-threatening nighttime, and thus boredome. What dev would approach experimental changes like that????? All this means is you are going to get the wrong feedback and create resentment and complaints when you didn't need to!

 

Footnote: This is assuming the encounter system actually exists and isn't just hot air to shut us up. Since there is no roadmap mentioning it....who knows?

[-Holo-]

there's very few zombies in your zombie game now.

 

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)

(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

[Ghostlight]

Define "a whole bunch"?

[RipClaw]

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)

(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

 

Sounds like the floor in the apartment building where you have about 20-30 construction workers in the ceiling.

[-Holo-]

Define "a whole bunch"?

 

Sounds like the floor in the apartment building where you have about 20-30 construction workers in the ceiling.

 

I think it was about 15-ish mixed zombies that came at us, was gonna take a screenshot of the pile afterwards but the damn corpses despawn too fast that was the most fun we have had while looting so far. Day 36 I think.

But yeah, overall there is a -severe- lack of zombies up and about.

 

Oh, apartmentbuilding? that sounds fun. Need to see if we have that on our tiny 4K map

[RipClaw]

Oh, apartmentbuilding? that sounds fun. Need to see if we have that on our tiny 4K map

 

The building is quite common. If you have a T5 trader quest then the building is called "apartment_brick_6_flr".

The starting point is at the back of the building where the underground car park is located.

[-Holo-]

The building is quite common. If you have a T5 trader quest then the building is called "apartment_brick_6_flr".

 

I think we have about 2 or maybe 3 apartment buildings in our map , explored most of the map already (lol)

Randomgen hates me when I make maps But it's a dry run to see what needs to be fixed before we generate a larger map and play more for real (if we keep playing, it's just soo much to fix to have a enjoyable play)

[Psychodabble]

1) The devs seem unusually non-receptive to constructive criticism.

 

 

I find this to be very true and very troubling. It seems like the devs show up to clap back at haters in the most ridiculous, histrionic, no-fact based threads, but if a poster who really cares aboutt he game takes the time to make a carefully detailed thread with constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement it is either ignored entirely or lightly dusted with snarky, sarcastic comments that ignore the substance of the thread or whitewash the issue completely.

 

This may be the worst "direction of the game" issue for me. It feels like they don't care about thoughful, reasoned feedback and they are only reacting to the loudest, squeakiest, and stupidest wheels.

[Psychodabble]

I'd like to make a footnote here. In the Shotgun messiah factory, there is a spot on the 2nd floor I think, outside the toilets, where there came a whole bunch of Zombies at us when we were detected. It was glorious! (but only place we ever seen something like that too)

(even though it raises the question why the two bathrooms were packed with zombies in the first place)

 

It's the first floor hallway just before the cafeteria. The bathroom ceilings are loaded with sleepers that tend to wake up early if you go too close to the wall on your way to the shooting range. You then exit the range, turn left, and there are about 15-20 zombies coming at you down the hall. If you make enough noise dealing with those, you wake the next bunch that are able to run down from the collapsed roof in the cafeteria and you can have about 30-35 zeds coming down on you at once.

[-Holo-]

It's the first floor hallway just before the cafeteria. The bathroom ceilings are loaded with sleepers that tend to wake up early if you go too close to the wall on your way to the shooting range. You then exit the range, turn left, and there are about 15-20 zombies coming at you down the hall. If you make enough noise dealing with those, you wake the next bunch that are able to run down from the collapsed roof in the cafeteria and you can have about 30-35 zeds coming down on you at once.

 

I wonder what governs the sleepers 'sleepyness'. Sometimes they wake up when a fly farts at the frontdoor, other zombies don't wake up even after bashing down the closetdoor right in front of them with a club and shining a torch in their face

The scene from Hot-Shots Part Deux where they try to get the keys comes to mind

[Onarr]

I find this to be very true and very troubling. It seems like the devs show up to clap back at haters in the most ridiculous, histrionic, no-fact based threads, but if a poster who really cares aboutt he game takes the time to make a carefully detailed thread with constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement it is either ignored entirely or lightly dusted with snarky, sarcastic comments that ignore the substance of the thread or whitewash the issue completely.

 

This may be the worst "direction of the game" issue for me. It feels like they don't care about thoughful, reasoned feedback and they are only reacting to the loudest, squeakiest, and stupidest wheels.

 

I am afraid you guys are a bit biased.

 

When you have an idea, you are usually very invested in it. When it is rejected by a dev a person will feel emotionaly hurt and start seeing the other person in negative light and will be much more critical. I suffer from this too, I posted many ideas here. I found out its about learning how to properly communicate the idea and making peace in advance that it will probably not be implemented.

 

I am very well familiar with development and know full well that there are many variables that need to be taken into account - development time, costs, competing features, balance etc. Most things will be rejected.

 

In the end, devs are people too so lets cut them some slack and lets not take it too personally. Madmole is cool even through he snaps sometimes or he does not really read the feedback thoroughly. Fataal is pretty profesional in my opinion and cannot really say anything bad about him. Gazz on the other hand can be quite condescending...most of the time.

[Onarr]

Point is there's very few zombies in your zombie game now. When people complained, they have basically been told it's a work in progress and the change was made in preparation for some encounter system that will make it feel like zombies are everywhere. SO ADD THAT DAMN ENCOUNTER SYSTEM IN THE SAME BUILD YOU NERF ZOMBIE NUMBERS!!!!! Nerfing the zombie count without adding the complimentary system just means we have to play for months with an empty world, no challenge, laughably non-threatening nighttime, and thus boredome.

Good point

[ZombieSurvivor]

I am afraid you guys are a bit biased.

 

When you have an idea, you are usually very invested in it. When it is rejected by a dev a person will feel emotionaly hurt and start seeing the other person in negative light and will be much more critical.

 

I agree and disagree. People with fragile emotions will get hurt. People with confidence will generally not be hurt by having an idea shot down by the devs. It could also be that some people have this image that there idea is solid gold and so anyone who has anything to say against it is taken as a personal attack. People just need to get thicker skin and stop and think.

 

If an idea is shot down, well, why? was it bad, if so then why? maybe it does not fit the vision of the game? maybe the idea was not clearly spoken to the dev... millions of reasons why. It is sad, it seems like there is a much bigger portion of the populace that cannot take rejection in this day and age.

 

This is not saying that healthy people do not have that sting of rejection from time to time because they are indeed proud of an idea. But a strong person will feel a little sting and immediately move on and or think about whats bad about there idea or pitch of said idea and improve it instead of feeling hurt.

 

Personally in my life, when I get rejected it does not make me view the person doing the rejecting in a nagetive light nor am I critical of them. Its an opportunity to learn and grow.

[meganoth]

I find this to be very true and very troubling. It seems like the devs show up to clap back at haters in the most ridiculous, histrionic, no-fact based threads, but if a poster who really cares aboutt he game takes the time to make a carefully detailed thread with constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement it is either ignored entirely or lightly dusted with snarky, sarcastic comments that ignore the substance of the thread or whitewash the issue completely.

 

This may be the worst "direction of the game" issue for me. It feels like they don't care about thoughful, reasoned feedback and they are only reacting to the loudest, squeakiest, and stupidest wheels.

 

I think all my feedback is thoughtful, reasonably and 100% correct. I expect you to think the same about your feedback even if your feedback and my feedback directly contradict themselves. And I expect each developer and reader to have his own view as well.

 

Sometimes other people show me that I was factually wrong even though I had been absolutely sure I was correct. But most often it is just a difference in the basic assumptions we make, leading to different conclusions.

 

This is most apparent with older alphas. A lot of players have favourites there, for example A12, A15 or A16. None of those were apparently the favourite of the "group mind" of the developers, they were and are looking for something else.

 

Really, if you think a thoughtful post is all that is needed to be followed you are kidding yourself. I made lots of reasonable suggestions (in my view) and I think about two were actually implemented and most likely that was just coincidence.

 

And I think my likes and dislikes are largely similar to those of the developers (I generally agree with their direction). How must someone feel who has largely different likes? Ignored? Sure. No surprise there.

[meganoth]

That's weird, he didn't catch up with us. The only who could catch up was feral vulture.

Maybe the difference that we usually traverse terrain with a lot of obstacles and I noticed that in A18 zombies have hard time navigating terrain in comprasion to A17.

 

 

No, talking seriously, a lot of people would really appreciate to disable/reduce sleepers and instead increase a number of zombies roaming streets around POIs. Sleepers are not ready for production the way they are implemented now. You probably know it well yourself, so why don't let us play without them as an option?

Sorry for emotions in previous post.

 

No, what I mean is, that game currently specifically designed the way this is most efficient playstyle. And it really contrasts to how game played before and many people don't like it.

The problem is not trader himself per se, but how overpowered his rewards are. Why trader provides you with ton of ammo, complete steel tools and weapons of high grade, tons of meds? Why you didn't make so quests reward you with key materials like weapon parts instead of weapon parts, forged steel, concrete, blueprints of forge, workbench, cement mixer and chem station, wrenches? The trader should help bypass certrain chokepoins of player progression, but currently he just makes most of other game content irrelevant.

 

I agree with your last paragraph. Quest rewards should be smaller, more varied, include more crafting ingredients instead of finished products. May I suggest posting this paragraph in the balance thread. Even if you get a "no problem there" remark from MM first that feedback might be picked up when they rebalance the trader.

[ZombieSurvivor]

I think all my feedback is thoughtful, reasonably and 100% correct. I expect you to think the same about your feedback even if your feedback and my feedback directly contradict themselves. And I expect each developer and reader to have his own view as well.

 

Sometimes other people show me that I was factually wrong even though I had been absolutely sure I was correct. But most often it is just a difference in the basic assumptions we make, leading to different conclusions.

 

This is most apparent with older alphas. A lot of players have favourites there, for example A12, A15 or A16. None of those were apparently the favourite of the "group mind" of the developers, they were and are looking for something else.

 

Really, if you think a thoughtful post is all that is needed to be followed you are kidding yourself. I made lots of reasonable suggestions (in my view) and I think about two were actually implemented and most likely that was just coincidence.

 

And I think my likes and dislikes are largely similar to those of the developers (I generally agree with their direction). How must someone feel who has largely different likes? Ignored? Sure. No surprise there.

 

You are a perfect example of what i was talking about above. You are the confident type person. I like how you view this, well said sir!

[Roland]

Most of my suggestions are rejected as well and there have been times I’ve suggested them on the dev chat and gotten some support from members of the team but then it was ultimately shot down by one of the lead programmers.

 

I dabbled a bit in boardgame design about a decade ago and felt I had a great idea and of course all my friends and family agreed when they played it. But when I contacted a few publishers they rejected my submission. Shortly after, I went to a gaming convention and had an opportunity to talk to someone in the industry and he told me that most game companies have 2-3 years worth of ideas they already have in queue to develop and release so they never need or particularly want new ideas.

He said to break into the industry I would need to self publish possibly via crowd funding.

 

The same is true of this game. The devs have already decided on the ideas they want to choose and they really aren’t in the market for new ideas. Most things people suggest have already been discussed and either rejected or given a priority of when to implement.

 

If you really want your suggestion to come to be you either need to finance your own game or mod this one. I felt very strongly about going to a design that bypassed xp and made player progression dependent upon time survived. My suggestion was rejected. Now I have a mod for it and it makes for an interesting alternative feel for the game. I love that there are no xp rewards causing players to do things. All you need to do is survive for a full day and then you get a skillpoint no matter what you did.

 

The point is I didn’t cry about insensitive devs. I got to work and learned how to create modlets and asked for help and now my suggestion is a reality for anyone who cares to try it.

[Ac75]

This cannot be denied. Melee has been terrible since A17. I got used to it, but it's still terrible.

 

Agreed. You "get used to it"

 

Best thing I ever did was start up A16 with War of the Walkers and I'm having an amaze-balls time. Simply amazing.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

This week I will introduce a friend to 7d2d, and Im worried about what he will say when he tries to hit stuff.

And I have no problem doing it right, once you get used to it its easy, it just.... doesnt feel right.

 

Its utterly shocking when you go back to A16.

 

All the "rag-dolling" they added, and now got those who will repeat it calling it "they added glancing blows!...", all those were there in A16 already, and done better.

 

In any game design course for college, there's no way you could introduce the hit collision detection in A16 and then A17 and 18 and not have it be glaringly obvious how bad the idea to change it was. What was done to the melee was really, really bad.

[Ac75]

I'll have to check that out, My by far biggest gripe with A16 is the borked sleepers, know if that's been touched on in the mod?

 

I swear, it appears the mod creator was somehow able to drastically lower "Cheese Spawns" = When you clear a place and they pop up behind you. It does seem he was able to nearly eliminate that and he also made stealth actually work and be reliable = If you're crouched, great chance you wont wake them.

 

The custom POIs alone with blow your mind in War of the Walkers. They're very well crafted, have better hidden secrets with VERY WORTHWHILE secret loot stashes and arent designed like the A17 and A18 POIS with cheesy jumpscares.

[Ac75]

They also listened to the bad/unskilled players. Players who were speccing entirely into non-combat skills then getting owned in POIs and crying they were too hard for example. Just look at the nerf to POI zombies. POIs are a joke now, and hardly any threat whatsoever until your GS hits a ridiculous value. On top of that they added Junk Turrets, my God, the most comically OP item I've seen ever as far as clearing POIs goes. Might as well have removed all zombies from indoors and just open a straight path to the loot room.

 

If you want hard POIS, my friend, many of the POIS in War of the Walkers are stuffed with Custom Zeds, like Glowy Head Business guys.

 

There's a Department Store POI in WOTW that has more gun safes that I've ever seen in one place, with a couple behind bulletproof glass, and going in that place is GNARLY! It seems the mod maker really stuffed key, high loot POIs with real high level Zeds.

 

I can't even do most of the POIs in WOTW alone.

[Ac75]

Why did you wait? A18 is zero threat at night. Just go about your normal business.

 

 

When I played A18 for like 30-40 hours, enough to form a solid opinion on it, I still had the A16 Fear of Night in me.

 

Naaaa....nothing out there. Hell, there's barely ever anything walking around in the day, let alone the night now.

 

I hear what youre saying = They listened to the crappy players too. "There's too many walkers in town....waaaa"...

 

Now theres none walking around! Again, War of the Walkers kicks ass in this regard. Tons of zeds on foot, everywhere and mobile mobs can be from 30 to 80 zeds and the mob types are frightening.

 

You do not wanna come around a corner and see a 40 Football Player horde streaking straight towards you*....

 

*I only aggro'd the first one or two but was lucky to move quick enough away