Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[Ghostlight]

This is a flaw on the hordenight thats been bothering me since A16, maybe even a15 with their lame hordenights.

 

 

A15 and A16 had a simple balance problem in that GS did not rise fast enough. Players would find themselves maxed out when the zombies were nowhere near full strength. So the players quit and started a new map. Few people saw powerful late-game hordes in A16 because it was day 150+ before they arrived. We played past that a few times and the hordes were simply awesome. Mindless and massive, they would randomly attack any and all blocks around them as they headed straight for the meat. We had many a converted POI or even Steel custom base pulled down from under us. Something that will never happen in A18.

[-Holo-]

 

3) I don't think any of the playerbase actually want a looter shooter. Yes we are all still playing but that's only because of fondness for past alphas and experiences.

 

I just said pretty much that exact sentence when I was playing 18.1 with a friend yesterday. (while we were out looting in the middle of the night, lol)

Had I started playing during A18 I don't think I'd stayed, just like A12 (?) shunned me away with the craftinggrid.

Almost everypart of the game that I liked, (and the group of people I play with) has been removed or altered to be simpler and boring.

 

There's still Zombies to kill. But the players are the predator now, not the prey.

There's building? if you want? not really needed much.

There's mining? What for? we're building a concrete base now, and we have smelted out exactly 0 cement. but looted well over 15000 from poi's.

Iron is in abundance from scrapping and breaking cars and stuffs.

I did have to go out for a moment and dig up some clay and some sand though.

Crafting is rather unused. The only thing we used the forge for so far is a few iron ingots, a bunch of steel ingots for a 4x4 and about 200 iron arrowheads for me since I like bows and crossbows, not a single round of ammunition has been crafted and we have several hundreds of 9mm and 7.62 rounds in storage -.-

 

I made myself sad again remembering all good things removed.

[Kalen]

You don't fight them. Just let them batter expendable POIs where you have made it basically impossible for them to get up to you.

 

Why bother playing a high difficulty if thats how you take on a horde? I'd rather player a lower difficulty and actually fight them. What makes A18 so much more difficult than previous alphas (at least for multiplayer) is that game stage goes up so much more quickly. I've seen day 7 hordes that were almost completely radiated with demolishers included and the POI being used for defense was destroyed.

[Ghostlight]

Why bother playing a high difficulty if thats how you take on a horde?

 

It makes exploring POIs more fun. On lower difficulties, every part of the game outside the few hours of the horde is tedious and not challenging for us, so we go high.

 

What makes A18 so much more difficult than previous alphas (at least for multiplayer) is that game stage goes up so much more quickly. I've seen day 7 hordes that were almost completely radiated with demolishers included and the POI being used for defense was destroyed.

 

They fixed this in a previous build. It used to be ridiculous and made 2-player co-op super hard mode, but it's quite reasonable in the latest experimental.

 

Previously the MP scaling was 1.7 for first gamestage, with diminishing returns of -0.22 for each player thereafter. Now it is 1.0 for first gamestage and -0.2 thereafter.

 

Example: 2-player co-op and each has gamestage 100

Previously: combined GS was 318 (170 + 148)

Latest Experimental: combined GS is 180 (100 + 80)

[SonicSonedit]

Pretty much how every new player faces their first ever horde. lol. I mean it works, but it's pretty boring, non-creative and costs a crap ton of resources. Interesting how he added an enemy that nullifies almost all creative steps one can take beyond that first "noob tower" - other than pure cheese bases. An A16 horde would have razed the tower.

 

We would probably disable this guy by editing spawnlists. That, if would have a need to build a base, that is.

 

Why bother playing a high difficulty if thats how you take on a horde? I'd rather player a lower difficulty and actually fight them. What makes A18 so much more difficult than previous alphas (at least for multiplayer) is that game stage goes up so much more quickly. I've seen day 7 hordes that were almost completely radiated with demolishers included and the POI being used for defense was destroyed.

 

Stage did go up much faster in A17 btw. Gamestage was pretty much maxed out by day 49, bloodmoon was exclusively radiated with some ferals.

The reason why we fight zombies this way now, because bases are useless, not because we want to cheese them.

[SonicSonedit]

<accidental doublepost>

[ThanVanMon]

I agree. They are trying to become the next Borderlands / Destiny / looter shooter. Here's the problem with that:

 

1) Borderlands exists and those games are much better looter shooters than this will ever be.

 

2) The things that made 7 Days unique and brilliant are gradually being dumbed down or removed completely.

 

3) I don't think any of the playerbase actually want a looter shooter. Yes we are all still playing but that's only because of fondness for past alphas and experiences. Nowadays many of us are playing in a weird non-organic way, in a desperate attempt to make it the game it used to be. We, for example, still build huge trap-laden bases with shooting galleries to fight from even though we know it is a totally inefficient way to play the game.

 

I personally cannot understand why they go in this direction. To make more money? Well if a final release came out the only additional cash they'd get for me is for DLC. And if by that time the game has moved much more towards a typical looter shooter, that's a DLC I will not be buying as I am not much into such games. Shrug.

 

Well written, i agree with you in everything. So many things we all strived for to get or find before but there is no need anymore. Last game we played we tried craft a bit to see what the new stuff werer and how it worked etc. But all you need now is the junkturret and all the guns + ammo you find within day 1!

[Roland]

Not necessarily agreeing with the person you are replying to, but I haven't needed a horde base since early A16. I do 99% of my hordes on foot, on the ground, from level 1 to ~150 (haven't seen much need to go higher level). I only use bases when I'm helping other players on a server (and most of the time then I run around the base on the ground). There really is NO reason to build a horde base unless you like to.

 

Change the zombie speed setting for blood moons to nightmare and many of the zombies will run faster than you. If you are lamenting that there is no need for a place of safety then that one setting can do it for you.

 

All this proves is that people can still play the game however they wish. If they want to do a speed run through it all they can and if that is fun for them they should continue and not complain about it. But you can still play in a slower way if that is fun as well.

 

That being said I think it would be great if they could randomize the loot room. But even so speedsters would still find exploits to be speedy. Such as in the above recommendation Qyzer could come back with driving around in a vehicle all night. But that just shows a determination to NOT build bases no matter what.

[Kalen]

It makes exploring POIs more fun. On lower difficulties, every part of the game outside the few hours of the horde is tedious and not challenging for us, so we go high.

 

 

 

They fixed this in a previous build. It used to be ridiculous and made 2-player co-op super hard mode, but it's quite reasonable in the latest experimental.

 

Previously the MP scaling was 1.7 for first gamestage, with diminishing returns of -0.22 for each player thereafter. Now it is 1.0 for first gamestage and -0.2 thereafter.

 

Example: 2-player co-op and each has gamestage 100

Previously: combined GS was 318 (170 + 148)

Latest Experimental: combined GS is 180 (100 + 80)

 

Ah, didn't realize it had been fixed in the latest update. Cool. If you're not going to fight the horde, why not just turn it off? That way you still have your insane difficulty for POIs and you don't have to hide in a tall POI one night a week.

[SonicSonedit]

Change the zombie speed setting for blood moons to nightmare and many of the zombies will run faster than you.

No they will not. You can outrun them easily unless you wearing heavy armor with zero skill and no movement mods.

 

All this proves is that people can still play the game however they wish.

No you can't. A lot of features was removed completely. Saying you can play however you wish is flat out false. If you implement option to disable trader's quest and make only parts of weapons drops instead of complete parts then yeah you can play somewhat as you could before.

 

And while we are at it - why there is no option to disable sleepers spawning completely? Not only they are pretty meh in comprasion to what roaming hordes used to be, they CONSTANTLY keep spawning in areas you already cleared and kill you coming from a place where they should not be anymore.

[-Holo-]

For the game to play how I wish, I'd want these features back that were there just a few alphas ago (and what made me fall in love with the game)

The smell mechanic,

The roaming zombies instead of sleepers (or complementing them)

Weapon and engine parts drop again

1-600 quality items

Learn by doing

Looting zombiecorpses

"infinite" map

And the hubcity available as options.

That would make the game into what I wish to play with my friends.

Had it been possible to mod these things back or activate it, I think there would be little to no fuzz about changes.

 

Of course the game will change during it's evolution, And of course people will be attached to something they initially loved, It's just so sad when something feels unique and seems 'perfect' changes away so drastic into something that's not really what drew me (and others as this thread suggests) into the game, with no option to mod it back.

 

There has been a lot of improvements of the tech and game so I'm not just hating on everthing new,

The power system, The paint system, mods system, removal of BlockID, shape selector, Distant terrain, Distant POI, new zombies, new POI's, the books in A18 are all great additions, and would have made the experience truly awesome with the core gameplay of A14/15/16 ish.

 

I have said many times that the 'rules' of A15 with A18 tech would be amazing.

 

I really really hope the modders will break the game down and rebuild it once it gets to gold.

[Ac75]

A16 with War of the Walkers is easily the best version of the game so far, IMO.

 

I don't understand why people like A17 or A18. 18 is better than 17, but its no 16.

 

The melee in 18 is a shining example of terrible programming. The distance you can get hit is absolutely bizarre and simply terrible.

 

Its easily seen when you play A16. They utterly ruined the melee hit detection in 17 and 18 = go play 16 and see.

 

 

Literally no one can defend the state of melee from a game development POV. To prove this point, in A18, youll get hit if a zombie starts its hit animation while you're a certain distance away = Even if you move out of the way in A18, you'll still take a hit. Games in the 1990's were programmed like that.

 

It's not like that in A16 but it is an A18....and its terrible.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

For the game to play how I wish, I'd want these features back that were there just a few alphas ago (and what made me fall in love with the game)

The smell mechanic,

The roaming zombies instead of sleepers (or complementing them)

Weapon and engine parts drop again

1-600 quality items

Learn by doing

Looting zombiecorpses

"infinite" map

And the hubcity available as options.

That would make the game into what I wish to play with my friends.

Had it been possible to mod these things back or activate it, I think there would be little to no fuzz about changes.

 

Of course the game will change during it's evolution, And of course people will be attached to something they initially loved, It's just so sad when something feels unique and seems 'perfect' changes away so drastic into something that's not really what drew me (and others as this thread suggests) into the game, with no option to mod it back.

 

There has been a lot of improvements of the tech and game so I'm not just hating on everthing new,

The power system, The paint system, mods system, removal of BlockID, shape selector, Distant terrain, Distant POI, new zombies, new POI's, the books in A18 are all great additions, and would have made the experience truly awesome with the core gameplay of A14/15/16 ish.

 

I have said many times that the 'rules' of A15 with A18 tech would be amazing.

 

I really really hope the modders will break the game down and rebuild it once it gets to gold.

 

Bro, just do youre self a HUGE fave and play A16 War of the Walkers. Its amazing.

[Ac75]

The thing TFP did that ruined the game in many ways was they listened to people who had already exhausted the game and were exploiting it.

 

TFP listened to those people. And it was stupid. They listened to people who played the game long who knew how to cheat the game.

 

That's not how you develop a game. You don't change your game mid-development based on what people who have over-played the game already are telling you. There's a very certain point where exploiters don't need to be listened to.

 

And thats what TFP did = They listened to cheaters who said "You just need to craft 100 axes" and they removed LBD. Very dumb way to develop a game.

[AtomicUs5000]

The thing TFP did that ruined the game in many ways was they listened to people who had already exhausted the game and were exploiting it.

 

TFP listened to those people. And it was stupid. They listened to people who played the game long who knew how to cheat the game.

 

That's not how you develop a game. You don't change your game mid-development based on what people who have over-played the game already are telling you. There's a very certain point where exploiters don't need to be listened to.

 

And thats what TFP did = They listened to cheaters who said "You just need to craft 100 axes" and they removed LBD. Very dumb way to develop a game.

 

I agree and disagree. They should fix up the exploits regardless of who and how many people point them out. However, there are better ways to do such things other than scrap a whole system. For example right now zombies won't walk on arrow slits. It's an exploit to surround your base with these. Do you listen or do you just let people trash the blood moon that you and your team spent thousands of hours building? Of course you fix it.... but you don't just remove arrow slits. Instead, you fix the code causing the problem so that people can still use arrow slits as they are intended to be used.

[Roland]

The thing TFP did that ruined the game in many ways was they listened to people who had already exhausted the game and were exploiting it.

 

TFP listened to those people. And it was stupid. They listened to people who played the game long who knew how to cheat the game.

 

That's not how you develop a game. You don't change your game mid-development based on what people who have over-played the game already are telling you. There's a very certain point where exploiters don't need to be listened to.

 

And thats what TFP did = They listened to cheaters who said "You just need to craft 100 axes" and they removed LBD. Very dumb way to develop a game.

 

I agree and I disagree. I agree that your description is a bad way to develop a game. I disagree that anything you wrote even remotely represents reality in how TFP came to their design decisions.

[Roland]

No they will not. You can outrun them easily unless you wearing heavy armor with zero skill and no movement mods.

 

I recently tested the biker zombie on nightmare and he caught up to me and hit me from behind while I ran from him. That’s at least one zombie type. Also if you don’t want to be faster than them then wear armor and don’t take movement bonuses. Then you’ll have a situation where you need to build a base.

 

No you can't. A lot of features was removed completely. Saying you can play however you wish is flat out false. If you implement option to disable trader's quest and make only parts of weapons drops instead of complete parts then yeah you can play somewhat as you could before.

 

Don’t go to the trader.

Start scrapping every weapon you find.

 

You mean that there is only one best most efficient way to play and you’re unwilling to sacrifice efficiency to make knowingly sub-optimal choices for the sake of playing differently. Well, that is going to be a problem in any game and any rebalance. As soon as you discover the new optimal path you’ll be back to complaining about being “forced” to play that one way again.

 

And while we are at it - why there is no option to disable sleepers spawning completely?

 

To save you from yourself

[Ac75]

I agree and I disagree. I agree that your description is a bad way to develop a game. I disagree that anything you wrote even remotely represents reality in how TFP came to their design decisions.

 

You can disagree, that's ok. It's entirely, 100% how it looks. And honestly, my descriptive sounds quite on point. You can disagree thinking that's how they came to their decision if you want.

 

That's definitely how it looks.

 

It looks like they took the advice of people who exhausted the game and exploited it rather than finalizing anything.

 

You can't just keep moving the goal posts, meaning game designers.

 

It will never end. And you'll end up with, as this very thread is about, a game that has drifted away from what many would consider its initial aim, intention or goal.

[Roland]

You can disagree, that's ok. It's entirely, 100% how it looks. And honestly, my descriptive sounds quite on point. You can disagree thinking that's how they came to their decision if you want.

 

That's definitely how it looks.

 

It looks like they took the advice of people who exhausted the game and exploited it rather than finalizing anything.

 

You can't just keep moving the goal posts, meaning game designers.

 

It will never end. And you'll end up with, as this very thread is about, a game that has drifted away from what many would consider its initial aim, intention or goal.

 

From your vantage point perhaps. But I have a better view than you.

 

It’s not so much that they keep moving the goal posts as much as you never understood where they are going. People thought A15 or A16 was their intended destinations but no. People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not.

[Prodigy]

honestly I feel pressured with 60 min days between looting, mining, visiting traders, doing quests, cooking food, building my base, planning out my progression, etc etc.

 

Gotta disagree here... I played all 17.4 & 18, up until I quit on 30 minute days. *THAT* had a little pressure. In my final playthrough, I went ahead and switched to 60 minute days... I went practically bat-♥♥♥♥ crazy at nights waiting for the sun to come up.

[Ac75]

From your vantage point perhaps. But I have a better view than you.

 

It’s not so much that they keep moving the goal posts as much as you never understood where they are going. People thought A15 or A16 was their intended destinations but no. People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not.

 

" But I have a better view than you."

 

Then "you never understood where they are going"

 

 

"People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not"

 

How is that not moving the goal posts? Everyone is just...dumb?

[SonicSonedit]

I recently tested the biker zombie on nightmare and he caught up to me and hit me from behind while I ran from him.

That's weird, he didn't catch up with us. The only who could catch up was feral vulture.

Maybe the difference that we usually traverse terrain with a lot of obstacles and I noticed that in A18 zombies have hard time navigating terrain in comprasion to A17.

 

To save you from yourself

No, talking seriously, a lot of people would really appreciate to disable/reduce sleepers and instead increase a number of zombies roaming streets around POIs. Sleepers are not ready for production the way they are implemented now. You probably know it well yourself, so why don't let us play without them as an option?

Sorry for emotions in previous post.

 

Don’t go to the trader.

Start scrapping every weapon you find.

 

You mean that there is only one best most efficient way to play and you’re unwilling to sacrifice efficiency to make knowingly sub-optimal choices for the sake of playing differently. Well, that is going to be a problem in any game and any rebalance. As soon as you discover the new optimal path you’ll be back to complaining about being “forced” to play that one way again.

No, what I mean is, that game currently specifically designed the way this is most efficient playstyle. And it really contrasts to how game played before and many people don't like it.

The problem is not trader himself per se, but how overpowered his rewards are. Why trader provides you with ton of ammo, complete steel tools and weapons of high grade, tons of meds? Why you didn't make so quests reward you with key materials like weapon parts instead of weapon parts, forged steel, concrete, blueprints of forge, workbench, cement mixer and chem station, wrenches? The trader should help bypass certrain chokepoins of player progression, but currently he just makes most of other game content irrelevant.

[Kalarro]

Literally no one can defend the state of melee from a game development POV.

 

This week I will introduce a friend to 7d2d, and Im worried about what he will say when he tries to hit stuff.

And I have no problem doing it right, once you get used to it its easy, it just.... doesnt feel right.

[Roland]

No, talking seriously, a lot of people would really appreciate to disable/reduce sleepers and instead increase a number of zombies roaming streets around POIs. Sleepers are not ready for production the way they are implemented now. You probably know it well yourself, so why don't let us play without them as an option?

Sorry for emotions in previous post.

 

No problem about the emotion. Here is the serious answer to your question of why not give an option to disable/reduce sleepers until they are finished: You paid to be part of a developing game's development process. The dev's first priority is to get things tested and get feedback and see how things are working and that is not well accomplished by giving players the means to remove the things the devs want tested. If you really only want to play stuff that is in a finished state then shelve the game until it is done and then pull it out and play with it.

 

No, what I mean is, that game currently specifically designed the way this is most efficient playstyle. And it really contrasts to how game played before and many people don't like it.

The problem is not trader himself per se, but how overpowered his rewards are. Why trader provides you with ton of ammo, complete steel tools and weapons of high grade, tons of meds? Why you didn't make so quests reward you with key materials like weapon parts instead of weapon parts, forged steel, concrete, blueprints of forge, workbench, cement mixer and chem station, wrenches? The trader should help bypass certrain chokepoins of player progression, but currently he just makes most of other game content irrelevant.

 

The trader exists so that people who want to play their survival game through trading can do so. If you just want to play your game primarily through trading with the trader you can do so. That is by design. But you can also ignore the trader and survive without it through scavenging and crafting your own stuff. Why does the trader having everything you need or want make the other game content irrelevant? If you scavenge and craft everything then the trader's content becomes irrelevant. It just depends on what you like to do and how you like to play.

[-Holo-]

From your vantage point perhaps. But I have a better view than you.

 

It’s not so much that they keep moving the goal posts as much as you never understood where they are going. People thought A15 or A16 was their intended destinations but no. People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not.

 

I think much of the complaints and disappointment comes from how well A15 and A16 played made it very unique. There were flaws there, especially in A16, but the core 'felt' the same (except sleepers who ruined that). In A15 I think a lot of people (like myself) thought that if they'd just add more cool features and content, the game would be even more awesome.

 

But A16 removed system and brought new ones that did not really work that well (sleepers), A17 removed a whole lot of systems, and A18 , while better then A17 in my eyes hasn't brought any of that back except some books.

 

A17 and A18 is pretty much a whole new (and very different) game from earlier versions.

Some of it can be modded of-course, but there are all those game-systems completely gone and as far as I know won't come back, which cannot be modded back in. And for us who loved how it was feels saddened since there is no other game that has those system.

 

During A14 and A15 I never looked that much forward for the game to go gold hastily since I didn't mind more alphas that brought more improvements, but now I can't wait for it to go gold and let modders (hopefully) restore the glory of it.

[-Holo-]

A16 with War of the Walkers is easily the best version of the game so far, IMO.

 

I don't understand why people like A17 or A18. 18 is better than 17, but its no 16.

 

The melee in 18 is a shining example of terrible programming. The distance you can get hit is absolutely bizarre and simply terrible.

 

Its easily seen when you play A16. They utterly ruined the melee hit detection in 17 and 18 = go play 16 and see.

 

 

Literally no one can defend the state of melee from a game development POV. To prove this point, in A18, youll get hit if a zombie starts its hit animation while you're a certain distance away = Even if you move out of the way in A18, you'll still take a hit. Games in the 1990's were programmed like that.

 

It's not like that in A16 but it is an A18....and its terrible.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Bro, just do youre self a HUGE fave and play A16 War of the Walkers. Its amazing.

 

I'll have to check that out, My by far biggest gripe with A16 is the borked sleepers, know if that's been touched on in the mod?