Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[Qyzer]

You must not have played for very long..... because I find it extremely hard to believe that you could play multiplayer, max difficulty, without a base for later game hordes. Game stage increases crazily in multiplayer.

 

Obvious troll is obvious. Prob died a bunch playing Leeroy and they all stopped after day 3 because they've got the CoD attention span

 

Not necessarily agreeing with the person you are replying to, but I haven't needed a horde base since early A16. I do 99% of my hordes on foot, on the ground, from level 1 to ~150 (haven't seen much need to go higher level). I only use bases when I'm helping other players on a server (and most of the time then I run around the base on the ground). There really is NO reason to build a horde base unless you like to.

[Kalen]

Not really. It's entirely possible to play that way, especially if you're a veteran. Blitz POIs from the first few minutes since you know which ones to hit and where the loot rooms are when zombies are at their weakest. Get an early gun and some bullets, nothing can challenge you now, run around looting POIs. If you want to save storage, only grab the important stuff. Pick a random POI to put your stuff in, lazy-mode fortify a second one, boom, you're set for horde night. Once you get a minibike and some gas you don't even need to fortify a POI anymore. This is exactly how my friends play and they're up to Day 30 just fine.

 

Not necessarily agreeing with the person you are replying to, but I haven't needed a horde base since early A16. I do 99% of my hordes on foot, on the ground, from level 1 to ~150 (haven't seen much need to go higher level). I only use bases when I'm helping other players on a server (and most of the time then I run around the base on the ground). There really is NO reason to build a horde base unless you like to.

 

Well you guys are better players than I am, I guess.... I can't even imagine my group (3 of us) fighting a day 28 horde at maximum difficulty, nightmare speed without a base.

[BobTheBard]

Well you guys are better players than I am, I guess.... I can't even imagine my group (3 of us) fighting a day 28 horde at maximum difficulty, nightmare speed without a base.

 

Who said anything about fighting them?

 

The horde is basically an enormous resource sink. From the point of view of an optimizer, or a realistic survivor even, the question isn't 'How can I fight them?' but 'How can I survive them?' The most resource-efficient way to deal with the horde throughout every alpha has always been to avoid it, something that can be easily accomplished with a minibike or motorcycle at the low cost of gas. Why go through all the effort of building an elaborate base with a huge network of traps when you can drive in circles for a few hours and have no risk? Sure, you can fight the horde if you want to, but there's nothing requiring you to do so and little benefit to doing it, and that only gets more true the harder the horde gets.

 

That's actually one of the biggest distinctions between a survival game and an action game, to reference my post above. In a survival game you should be encouraged to avoid the horde. Hordes are meant to be a challenge you don't face head-on but instead find ways to work around and, well, survive. In an action game though, hordes are the climax of the struggle, the fight against overwhelming odds that you're expected to stand against and shoot down, then feel good when you've beaten them. As 7 Days eliminates more and more ways to avoid fighting the horde head-on it edges closer and closer to an action game.

[Kalen]

Who said anything about fighting them?

 

The horde is basically an enormous resource sink. From the point of view of an optimizer, or a realistic survivor even, the question isn't 'How can I fight them?' but 'How can I survive them?' The most resource-efficient way to deal with the horde throughout every alpha has always been to avoid it, something that can be easily accomplished with a minibike or motorcycle at the low cost of gas. Why go through all the effort of building an elaborate base with a huge network of traps when you can drive in circles for a few hours and have no risk? Sure, you can fight the horde if you want to, but there's nothing requiring you to do so and little benefit to doing it, and that only gets more true the harder the horde gets.

 

That's actually one of the biggest distinctions between a survival game and an action game, to reference my post above. In a survival game you should be encouraged to avoid the horde. Hordes are meant to be a challenge you don't face head-on but instead find ways to work around and, well, survive. In an action game though, hordes are the climax of the struggle, the fight against overwhelming odds that you're expected to stand against and shoot down, then feel good when you've beaten them. As 7 Days eliminates more and more ways to avoid fighting the horde head-on it edges closer and closer to an action game.

 

Ah gotcha... the dude I was originally replying to implied that he was fighting the hordes

 

We literally facerolled through content on max difficulty possible. No base building

[-Holo-]

From what I remember about A15 the same tactic as in A18 works: Freeing a single POI from zombies and sitting on the roof at night.

 

But I agree that A18 is easier in the first night even if you are without a POI because you are almost guaranteed to have a gun at that point. Which might really suggest a further nerf of the loot table for the first three day

 

After the first two or three days though, is there still a difference between the two versions for an experienced player?

 

Yes. It's quite a big difference. We thought the game was easier due to us being more experienced, but we're getting killed left and right in A15 with 150% zombie density set. It's like night and day, even if you find a gun in A15 at the start, ammoloot is limited and ammo runs out fast, especially if you panic.

 

We set up "base" in the attic on a POI in a small city, and there is so much zombies roaming around, I'm killing about 50-90 each day with clubs and arrows for the most part, the few 9mm bullets I try to save for dogs or other oh ♥♥♥♥ moments.

 

Just walking down a street to fight a zombie can easily attract more zombies in and around the houses so I often count around 30-40 zombies swarming me from all directions, with that many it's easy to be caught off guard and being brutally murdered.

 

It's glorious!

[Kalen]

Yes. It's quite a big difference. We thought the game was easier due to us being more experienced, but we're getting killed left and right in A15 with 150% zombie density set. It's like night and day, even if you find a gun in A15 at the start, ammoloot is limited and ammo runs out fast, especially if you panic.

 

We set up "base" in the attic on a POI in a small city, and there is so much zombies roaming around, I'm killing about 50-90 each day with clubs and arrows for the most part, the few 9mm bullets I try to save for dogs or other oh ♥♥♥♥ moments.

 

Just walking down a street to fight a zombie can easily attract more zombies in and around the houses so I often count around 30-40 zombies swarming me from all directions, with that many it's easy to be caught off guard and being brutally murdered.

 

It's glorious!

 

I've said it before, but I really wish I could play A11 or A12 with A18s features.

[White-Gandalf]

Luckily, most things can be modded...

 

While i agree with a lot of the posts in this thread criticizing changes in gameplay over the last alphas, i am lucky to be able to correct many things that i consider major mistakes via config files. I first started modding with A15, and it did not diminish with higher alphas, just the contrary.

 

So, for example, the zombie count in the wild can easily be adjusted. It would be nice, if zombie spawn would be differentiated between not only the biome types, but also between village types resp. sizes. But for the overall experience, it's already good to be adjustable at all.

 

The same for sleepers. And for loot. And for building blocks available by the player. And for consistent systems of prices (things having prices decades higher or lower than their recipe materials), block hitpoints (birds nests being as sturdy as a refrigerator), block materials (mismatches between recipes and scrapping/wrenching), recipes (for example "wood pole" being among the simple ones, whereas "centered wood poles" belonging to the luxury branch requiring a table saw - since A17, or a whole bunch of blocks NOT in the wood frame group and just a miserable 4 being in the rebar frame group - since A18) and the like.

 

If i were to sum up ALL the blatant errors, mistakes or just annoyances in the last alphas, i could write books about it.

 

Luckily, all those things can be corrected. By everyone himself.

 

AFTER those hundreds and thousands of corrections, the game usually makes fun again, after each new vanilla alpha. I usually start to really enjoy the game multiple months after the final release of a major alpha, usually a ".4" or something, after i made that fit my feelings of consistency and logic.

 

For a more recent example: I am absolutely sure that the demolishers will get tuned down in their might. Because all and every so called "solution" i found up to day on youtube is in fact a major misuse of AI flaws. Sometimes called "cheating". While i am equally sure that the AI flaws will be rectified - at least to some degree -, i am absolutely sure that the power level of "fightable only on the basis of cheating" will not persist. We had way less powerful entities that got boiled down nevertheless, like the - nowadays nearly "normal" - spitting cops.

[SonicSonedit]

Was building a base ever needed in the last couple of Alphas? I like how it feels right now where you can leverage a POI if you wanted to. There are tons of creative/fun POI retrofits out there that players have done which I think is a testiment to players creativity and the games flexibility.

 

Not sure about A17 since zombies were facerolling through reinforced steel walls like they were made of paper, but in A16 bases were quite usefull.

In A18 we literally had no base. We just had a few chest on a road next to trader and thats it... forge, workbench and chem station at trader, but still crafting is so useless we basically ingored all that. Even in A17 crafting was our main source of gear until end game, but now base server literally no purpose - it neither protects us neither provides us with gear...

[-Holo-]

I've said it before, but I really wish I could play A11 or A12 with A18s features.

 

I'm curious, What did A11 and 12 have that got removed ? I started playing the game in 11 or 12 (it had the crafting grid) and I gave up very quickly (mostly due to the crafting grid being awful ) so I never got to play it a lot. Tried it again when I checked out old Alphas some weeks ago, but that crafting grid is something I just can't stand :/

[SonicSonedit]

The main difference between A15 and A18 is that in A15 you usually found only parts of weapons. It took a long time to assemble for example a working pistol and that was usually of poor quality. And you couldn't assemble or repair a weapon without the appropriate schematics. So you had to use the bow as a ranged weapon.

Exactly. Not sure is schematic requirement was a good thing though, I think workbench should be enough, for handguns at least. New PUBG-like weapon mods/attachments system is fun, but weapon assembling instead of crafting really should come back.

 

 

You must not have played for very long..... because I find it extremely hard to believe that you could play multiplayer, max difficulty, without a base for later game hordes. Game stage increases crazily in multiplayer.

 

We play since alpha 15 together and one of us plays since A9 and told us how complex crafting used to be. Other guy plays since A12. I started in late 14. We are not new. We know how gamestage works.

And in A18 we literally didn't feet a need in base whatsoever.

Here is our vanilla A17 playthough on max difficulty, note the day:

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'm curious, What did A11 and 12 have that got removed ? I started playing the game in 11 or 12 (it had the crafting grid) and I gave up very quickly (mostly due to the crafting grid being awful ) so I never got to play it a lot. Tried it again when I checked out old Alphas some weeks ago, but that crafting grid is something I just can't stand :/

 

From what my friend told me, crafting had much more variety and complexity to it. Also loot wasn't showering you like it does now (it wasn't so abundant even in 14/15 though). Especially sad how badly made new sleeper system, walking zombies were much better. And base used to be a musthave thing - if you don't build it, you are basically screwed.

 

I too wish we could bring A12 with A18 graphics and features. It would be a best version from what I heard.

 

----------------

 

All and all, after talking with my friends, we basically all agreed its better to ignore upcoming alphas given the direction game headed (we have a feeling that bandit NPCs will basically turn a game into crappy version of rust/borderlands), wait for beta and then mod the game heavily to bring back A12/A15 but with new engine/graphics/features.

[Kalen]

I'm curious, What did A11 and 12 have that got removed ? I started playing the game in 11 or 12 (it had the crafting grid) and I gave up very quickly (mostly due to the crafting grid being awful ) so I never got to play it a lot. Tried it again when I checked out old Alphas some weeks ago, but that crafting grid is something I just can't stand :/

 

Mostly the fact that there were zombies everywhere.... and that cities in particular were scary. You could not loot in a city until you were better geared. Nights could be terrifying where you would hear scores of zombies shuffling around outside your base and if you made any noise they would come looking for you. Much different level of tension in the earlier alphas.

 

We play since alpha 15 together and one of us plays since A9 and told us how complex crafting used to be. Other guy plays since A12. I started in late 14. We are not new. We know how gamestage works.

And in A18 we literally didn't feet a need in base whatsoever.

Here is our vanilla A17 playthough on max difficulty, note the day: https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/...rench_somehow/

 

I didn't mean how long you've been playing 7 days, I meant how long your particular game was. Because, as I said, I find it hard to believe you played the highest difficulty with nightmare speed and didn't need a base. I could almost believe that, if you were incredible at the game, you could survive a day 7 horde.... but day 28 or 35 horde? I have a really hard time believing that.

[RipClaw]

For a more recent example: I am absolutely sure that the demolishers will get tuned down in their might. Because all and every so called "solution" i found up to day on youtube is in fact a major misuse of AI flaws. Sometimes called "cheating". While i am equally sure that the AI flaws will be rectified - at least to some degree -, i am absolutely sure that the power level of "fightable only on the basis of cheating" will not persist. We had way less powerful entities that got boiled down nevertheless, like the - nowadays nearly "normal" - spitting cops.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Madmole initiated the change himself that the demolisher does 5000 explosion damage.

 

When he was asked by players how to fight the demolisher then his answer was always to shoot him to trigger the explosion.

In order to protect the base you should jump down and pull the demolisher away.

 

So it's clear how Madmole imagines a defense. Stand on a tower, shoot down and throw grenades. Exactly the way he does it.

[Kalarro]

I am absolutely sure that the demolishers will get tuned down in their might. Because all and every so called "solution" i found up to day on youtube is in fact a major misuse of AI flaws. Sometimes called "cheating". While i am equally sure that the AI flaws will be rectified - at least to some degree -, i am absolutely sure that the power level of "fightable only on the basis of cheating" will not persist. We had way less powerful entities that got boiled down nevertheless, like the - nowadays nearly "normal" - spitting cops.

 

Im not so sure about that. They clearly want you out there playing like a fighter game. Crafting and builind has turned into a secondary thing you can do. But spending 90% of the time fighting and looting fireguns looks like their objective now, instead of 40% of the time like I was before.

OP zombies demolishing your base fits that.

[SonicSonedit]

if you were incredible at the game, you could survive a day 7 horde.... but day 28 or 35 horde? I have a really hard time believing that.

They are unbelieveable bad in A18. They can't really navigate high buildings, so we could defend in 8 store building without any real problems with all these molotovs, AKs and grenades from quests. They didn't even try to destroy walls or find a way in, they just try to break in directly. I kinda dissapointed, they were so smart in A17, I was amazed - you surely wouldn't survive in 8 floor building during horde night.

[Kalen]

They are unbelieveable bad in A18. They can't really navigate high buildings, so we could defend in 8 store building without any real problems with all these molotovs, AKs and grenades from quests. They didn't even try to destroy walls or find a way in, they just try to break in directly. I kinda dissapointed, they were so smart in A17, I was amazed - you surely wouldn't survive in 8 floor building during horde night.

 

Oh ok, yeah that would work.

[-Holo-]

Mostly the fact that there were zombies everywhere.... and that cities in particular were scary. You could not loot in a city until you were better geared. Nights could be terrifying where you would hear scores of zombies shuffling around outside your base and if you made any noise they would come looking for you. Much different level of tension in the earlier alphas.

 

Ah. I don't think that changed a lot up until A16 though with the awful sleepersystem.

I'm playing A15 now and nights are something we stay indoors huddled up, and cities are dangerous as f$£, Have zombie density to 150% and they're litterally crawling out of houses when fighting them in the streets, I often count up to 40ish zombies at a time for the fights.

 

I started fighting a few zombies on a road a few 100 meters from a small town at day 1 with a crap club. It turned very fast to a fight for the life as more and more zombies roamed in from around and I had just time to kill the last few and panic-dig a small hole in the side of the road and hide for the night hoping I wouldn't be sensed.

I think we're at day 5 now and I have somewhere between 350 zombie kills, my friend 200 something.

 

So amazing in contrast to now, when we're out and walking and looting houses in the towns in the middle of the night with no fear.

(except when we attack a boar, that's the only monster we are scared off )

[SonicSonedit]

Ah. I don't think that changed a lot up until A16 though with the awful sleepersystem.

I'm playing A15 now and nights are something we stay indoors huddled up, and cities are dangerous as f$£, Have zombie density to 150% and they're litterally crawling out of houses when fighting them in the streets, I often count up to 40ish zombies at a time for the fights.

 

I started fighting a few zombies on a road a few 100 meters from a small town at day 1 with a crap club. It turned very fast to a fight for the life as more and more zombies roamed in from around and I had just time to kill the last few and panic-dig a small hole in the side of the road and hide for the night hoping I wouldn't be sensed.

I think we're at day 5 now and I have somewhere between 350 zombie kills, my friend 200 something.

 

So amazing in contrast to now, when we're out and walking and looting houses in the towns in the middle of the night with no fear.

(except when we attack a boar, that's the only monster we are scared off )

 

What do you think about block crafting and gun assembling in A15?

[Ghostlight]

You must not have played for very long..... because I find it extremely hard to believe that you could play multiplayer, max difficulty, without a base for later game hordes. Game stage increases crazily in multiplayer.

 

It's easier in A18 than it has been in any alpha before it (except possible A17, which is basically where the gameplay rot began to set in).

[-Holo-]

What do you think about block crafting and gun assembling in A15?

 

I love the gun assembly system of the old, It's far more fun to finally be able to gather up a working Pos gun after looking for parts then finding shotguns in every other closet like now :/

 

Fully assembled guns would probably been looted ages before us players set the foot in the world by other scavengers, so finding only few parts here and there makes much more sense.

 

The block crafting I think was fairly ok, This playthough we have barely built anything just took over a POI with an attic at the edge of a town.

[Ghostlight]

Well you guys are better players than I am, I guess.... I can't even imagine my group (3 of us) fighting a day 28 horde at maximum difficulty, nightmare speed without a base.

 

You don't fight them. Just let them batter expendable POIs where you have made it basically impossible for them to get up to you.

[Ghostlight]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Madmole initiated the change himself that the demolisher does 5000 explosion damage.

 

When he was asked by players how to fight the demolisher then his answer was always to shoot him to trigger the explosion.

In order to protect the base you should jump down and pull the demolisher away.

 

So it's clear how Madmole imagines a defense. Stand on a tower, shoot down and throw grenades. Exactly the way he does it.

 

Pretty much how every new player faces their first ever horde. lol. I mean it works, but it's pretty boring, non-creative and costs a crap ton of resources. Interesting how he added an enemy that nullifies almost all creative steps one can take beyond that first "noob tower" - other than pure cheese bases. An A16 horde would have razed the tower.

[Ghostlight]

What do you think about block crafting and gun assembling in A15?

 

The old school gun assembling was fantastic and I greatly miss it. It was - ironically enough - the closest to an end-game we have ever had, building level 600 of the rarer guns was quite the challenge - so of course, they removed it and replaced with an inferior system. Assembly also made your guns quite personal as you worked to increase their level (which capped at 600 as I said) just a little at a time.

[Ghostlight]

Im not so sure about that. They clearly want you out there playing like a fighter game. Crafting and builind has turned into a secondary thing you can do. But spending 90% of the time fighting and looting fireguns looks like their objective now, instead of 40% of the time like I was before.

OP zombies demolishing your base fits that.

 

I agree. They are trying to become the next Borderlands / Destiny / looter shooter. Here's the problem with that:

 

1) Borderlands exists and those games are much better looter shooters than this will ever be.

 

2) The things that made 7 Days unique and brilliant are gradually being dumbed down or removed completely.

 

3) I don't think any of the playerbase actually want a looter shooter. Yes we are all still playing but that's only because of fondness for past alphas and experiences. Nowadays many of us are playing in a weird non-organic way, in a desperate attempt to make it the game it used to be. We, for example, still build huge trap-laden bases with shooting galleries to fight from even though we know it is a totally inefficient way to play the game.

 

I personally cannot understand why they go in this direction. To make more money? Well if a final release came out the only additional cash they'd get for me is for DLC. And if by that time the game has moved much more towards a typical looter shooter, that's a DLC I will not be buying as I am not much into such games. Shrug.

[-Holo-]

You don't fight them. Just let them batter expendable POIs where you have made it basically impossible for them to get up to you.

 

This is a flaw on the hordenight thats been bothering me since A16, maybe even a15 with their lame hordenights.

Back in A14 the hordes brought the special rare zombies like ferals (now wights) cops, military guys to your base, for a chance of maybe a nice .44 gunpart, or sniper rifle part or a bit of military armor. It was either that or loot the hubcity (which had similar tough zombies) to get the best stuff.

 

Nowadays the hordenight are nothing more then a XP farm.

There is no reason to fight the horde anymore, had it been the only way to get some rare things, that would be incitament to fight the Z's instead of just sitting the night out on some random rooftop.

[Ghostlight]

Ah. I don't think that changed a lot up until A16 though with the awful sleepersystem.

I'm playing A15 now and nights are something we stay indoors huddled up, and cities are dangerous as f$£, Have zombie density to 150% and they're litterally crawling out of houses when fighting them in the streets, I often count up to 40ish zombies at a time for the fights.

 

I started fighting a few zombies on a road a few 100 meters from a small town at day 1 with a crap club. It turned very fast to a fight for the life as more and more zombies roamed in from around and I had just time to kill the last few and panic-dig a small hole in the side of the road and hide for the night hoping I wouldn't be sensed.

I think we're at day 5 now and I have somewhere between 350 zombie kills, my friend 200 something.

 

So amazing in contrast to now, when we're out and walking and looting houses in the towns in the middle of the night with no fear.

(except when we attack a boar, that's the only monster we are scared off )

 

This post made me so sad. And I agree with every word of it.