Fortitude - Garbage for Damage

[slenderman478]

why would I turn up settings even more just to stroke my ego? Nomad is fine enough and having radiated zombies spawning in almost every room in PoIs like shotgun messiah and sham factory is fine.

 

the idea that oh settings should be bumped up for more of a challenge is great if this was a strategy game but it isnt. all higher difficulty settings do is increase the damage you take whole nerfing the damage it's just for ego boosting.

 

fortitude is fine since it's mainly a tank build and the brawler perk stuns and knocks out zombies like crazy and has a fast attack speed.

 

if they are cleaning them out using half the stuff I am that's fine on higher difficulty settings then good for them. hopefully they aren't spamming heals and using turrets or cheap methods to make it easier. which I'm sure most of them are.

 

brawler is fine everyone just likes to cry about their weapon not being as op as the other's. I don't expect a knuckle weapon to be doing the same damage as a spear, sledgehammer or even a modded up club.

 

if you want damage just get a gun and you're fine. it's not very difficult to get a ton of ammo now anyways.

 

Except that there is a whole lot of strategy tied to this game as it is right now. Just the way of fighting Zombies varies greatly from player to player, and I'm not only referring to their weapon of choice. Also, think about all the planning you have to do ahead of time for certain things.

Just this fact makes a higher difficulty setting not just an "ego-boost". Some things you could afford to do on easier difficulties, you simply can't pull off on Insane. Just like you can't do what you want against Nightmare speed Zombies, which I play with. Now, I'm not telling you how to play, my point is that people don't play on higher difficulties for that "ego-boost" but for the fact that this is a game where you have to challenge yourself, the game alone isn't gonna provide that for you. As you said, ammo is way too abundant, and I agree to that. I usually end up with an abundance of multiple ammo types in my solo games in A18. I also agree with you on the fact that brawler is fine. But all that Sythalin is saying, I believe, is that some builds may be preferable than others depending on what settings you're playing on, hence it is not an ego-boost, but instead stepping out of your comfort-zone. (And no, I'm also not saying that Foritude is unviable on higher difficulties and/or speeds.)

[Ramethzer0]

I find it somewhat strange that there is a strong tendency to believe that each of the builds are meant to play precisely in line with the other. What I have learned is that right now in this moment, build diversity is way more distinct and nuanced from each other. None of them are on equal footing.

 

So of course a STR build is gunna feel OP compared to melee of other builds. STR is meant for melee, and shines really well in solo play across all difficulties solo or in group play.

 

Compared to other lines, where you might have to flip your script in how you play. For instance in AGI and PER to me, what makes those builds successful is being free in your movement. On open ground, or boxed in - you should have a plan for how you move. If you're stuck, stunned, or otherwise having difficulty in combat, then I'd think any given person not playing to the advantages of their own build. In stronger heavier armour, movement becomes very tight and you have to rely upon pure grit to survive. That is also not a new play style.

 

I kinda expected all the saltposting considering in the past everyone picked up the club and the bow and got good with those things because those basic needs took practice to get right. The play of these weapons end up emerging and converging as a universal combat meta. Now were in a place where that's no longer true.

[Whorhay]

I really don't get the logic behind going deep into an attribute and only doing the melee perk, and not even finishing it, then complaining that it isn't good enough. Melee will not suite every situation, which is why there is also ranged weapons for each of the attributes. Besides which you don't need an attribute to be perked to use the weapons from it. I did a basically pure perception build into the low fifties, then started spending points in Agi. But since day one I've been using a pistol as my backup weapon, to my spear, for PoI clearing. I leave the rifles at home for horde nights.

[Scyris]

I really don't get the logic behind going deep into an attribute and only doing the melee perk, and not even finishing it, then complaining that it isn't good enough. Melee will not suite every situation, which is why there is also ranged weapons for each of the attributes. Besides which you don't need an attribute to be perked to use the weapons from it. I did a basically pure perception build into the low fifties, then started spending points in Agi. But since day one I've been using a pistol as my backup weapon, to my spear, for PoI clearing. I leave the rifles at home for horde nights.

 

Actually the sledge is generally good for any situation. Its the only melee weapon that really is like that. Next nearest like it is the club. Power attack on a sledge with 3 or 4 in the perk means you'll most likely knockdown every zombie in a pile in 1 swing. The rest just aren't really viable later on on the higher difficulties. Thats where the problem is, they tested this crap on adventurer difficulty which is noob mode where the player gets a damage bonus vs zombies. On adv or lower I am sure even breathing on zombies kills them. However on nomad both sides do normal damage to each other and even then you start to notice the other melee weapons have issues other than sledge and club. The issues get worse the higher up in difficulty you go.

 

The only reason sledge and club are really viable is not their damage, its the secondary effect, the knockdown is great for crowd control and for reducing damage you take, coupled with those weapons decent range its a nice combo. Knives, bleed doesn't stack properly nor does enough damage to really help much (i've tried a high agi knife build it was horrible on warrior+ even with a machete). Spear has basically no flinch unless you throw it, fists has knockdown and such (though not nearly as often as club and especially sledge) but the range is so short your most likely getting smacked anytime you try to get close to hit anything. Lets not start on how garbage the stun baton is, not only does it have virtually no damage, it has no real good secondarys either.

 

The whole weapons being locked to stats thing was the dumbest move tfp could have made imo. Pistols are actually great, but the way a18 works most of the agility perks are completly worthless other than handguns and maybe light armor. Int is not even needed at all, I just use schematics instead, plus it adds a bit of randomness to each game which I enjoy (I play dead is dead) and I never know if I'm going to get the recipe for something like a workbench early or if i'll have to wait a while.

 

Weapons need to go back to learn by doing and be removed from all stat locks, as does sex t-rex miner 69'er etc. Weapons have their respective skill: Handguns, Machine Guns, Shot Guns, Turrets, Then melee has their own: Blunt, Blade, or one for each wea type: like sledgehammers, clubs, knives, stun baton, brawling etc. Sex t-rex/cardio are governed by atlethics, Miner 69'er/motherload is govered by mining skill. Skills open at 0,20,40,60 and 80 in the skill. This way you coulod say level up in pistols and be good at them without wasting perk points in garbage agi as it does nothing of value. Also have the headshot damage bonus moved to be included in the base skill for the weapon type or its perk. Light and heavy armor can also each have their own skill.

 

basically a elder scrolls type system in 7dtd's game world is what I'd enjoy the most personally. Currently waiting for the darkness falls mod for a18, as it has the learn by doing thing I want, and throws all the stats in the garbage can where they belong. Uses a class system (you can learn all of them eventually) and each class has special things only that class can make, which usually is top tier tools, weapons, armor, food, med supplies etc. Which btw, there is a tier above steel in the mod, its titanium.

[HungryZombie]

Actually the sledge is generally good for any situation. Its the only melee weapon that really is like that. Next nearest like it is the club. Power attack on a sledge with 3 or 4 in the perk means you'll most likely knockdown every zombie in a pile in 1 swing. The rest just aren't really viable later on on the higher difficulties. Thats where the problem is, they tested this crap on adventurer difficulty which is noob mode where the player gets a damage bonus vs zombies. On adv or lower I am sure even breathing on zombies kills them. However on nomad both sides do normal damage to each other and even then you start to notice the other melee weapons have issues other than sledge and club. The issues get worse the higher up in difficulty you go.

 

Isn't that the point of higher difficulties that it's harder? You have to refine your strategy into a min/max area of what works and what don't. The different weapons have different situations where they are effective and have totally different flavors that add to replayability. I don't think it's possible to balance everything so it is effective at high difficulties without making them OP in normal settings.

[Ghostlight]

Int is not even needed at all.

 

Look STOP THIS. Int is absolutely needed, and in fact FORCED on the player by RNG. It's that damn Crucible. If you do not get one or the schematic for making them, you absolutely have to perk to Int 10 immediately, or else your re-enforced concrete base will be torn a new hole on a decent difficulty setting. Plus if you want to craft top tier stuff, you need Steel. I hate this aspect of the game. It murders solo play. Day 30 and I have no Crucible. It's crippling.

[HungryZombie]

Look STOP THIS. Int is absolutely needed, and in fact FORCED on the player by RNG. It's that damn Crucible. If you do not get one or the schematic for making them, you absolutely have to perk to Int 10 immediately, or else your re-enforced concrete base will be torn a new hole on a decent difficulty setting. Plus if you want to craft top tier stuff, you need Steel. I hate this aspect of the game. It murders solo play. Day 30 and I have no Crucible. It's crippling.

 

By crippling, do you mean you can no longer clear POI's or defend your base from the hordes? I have 21 days in and no steel and I'm doing fine. I'd like better stuff sure but I find enough steel at traders to make do.

[Scyris]

Look STOP THIS. Int is absolutely needed, and in fact FORCED on the player by RNG. It's that damn Crucible. If you do not get one or the schematic for making them, you absolutely have to perk to Int 10 immediately, or else your re-enforced concrete base will be torn a new hole on a decent difficulty setting. Plus if you want to craft top tier stuff, you need Steel. I hate this aspect of the game. It murders solo play. Day 30 and I have no Crucible. It's crippling.

 

Hate to tell you zombie block damage is not effected by difficulty at all. and the diff between nomad and warrior is about needing 1 more shot/hit to kill zombies. Then again even on warrior a decent shotgun will be 1 shoting ferals with headshots quite early. I've never, once spent a point on int in a18 and i've done fine. I can buy steel off trader if I need to. Which about the only thing I have ever needed it for is to make certan weapon/armor mods. I've seriously not touched int once since a18 experimental, and ive done fine, I usually have a crucible by week 2, if not earlier, its all about knowing where to loot for what your looking for. If I don't have one? it doesn't hurt me much as I said the only thing I really use steel for is weapon/armor mods. My base is setup in a way that zombies never really hit the walls. I use the small brown church Poi make a maze, and have electric fence poles/wires all going on any spot the zombies will be walking, along with barbed wire fences and blade traps. I also have a set of bars at the top of my 3 high wall so they cannot jump out either. Zombies can't do jack if they are basically permastunned anytime they come into my kill corridor. The barbed wire fences are only needed to deal with dogs and spiders, as they pass under the electric fence poles. Or I could destroy 1 block and put the electric fence poles 1 block lower, which should then hit dogs and spiders to. Day 14 horde, only managed to destroy 1 block and it was a 1200-1500 hp cobblestone block. Even then I probally did more damage to it with my shotgun than they actually did to it since that was the angle I was shooting them at.

 

As for demolishers, I'll figure something out for them when the time comes. I'll probally make a outer ring of bars so I can snipe them from range when they start showing up.

 

For steel tools? I generally try to loot some as I go str build and it just takes way to many steel tool parts to make anything, assuming I even find the steel tool schematic that is.

[Ghostlight]

Yes I mean you cannot defend your base from the horde without Steel. Obviously it depends on several factors:

 

1) Difficulty level (was Warrior)

2) Multiplayer over-tuned GS (our combined GS - for 2 players - was 320 on day 21, possibly a bug)

 

Horde destroyed a re-enforced concrete base with ease despite us firing 2000 rounds from tier 6 guns. And yes it was Demolishers. LOTS of Demolishers.

 

p.s. Forget solo play, it is now easy mode in A18 because GS is not scaled except by difficulty. I am talking about MP.

 

p.p.s We refuse to exploit this crappy AI, so mazes are out of bounds.

 

And feel free to inform me where to loot a Crucible. I have been everywhere.

[Scyris]

Yes I mean you cannot defend your base from the horde without Steel. Obviously it depends on several factors:

 

1) Difficulty level (was Warrior)

2) Multiplayer over-tuned GS (our combined GS was 320 on day 21, possibly a bug)

 

Horde destroyed a re-enforced concrete base with ease despite us firing 2000 rounds from tier 6 guns.

 

p.s. Forget solo play, it is now easy mode in A18. I am talking about MP.

 

Maybe you need to rethink base layout or trap layout, electric fence traps are godly, they won't kill anything, but they stun anything and makes them easy headshot targets for 1 hit kills with a shotgun. If the zombies are bashing your walls a lot your base layout is crap. Or you don't have the proper protection, surrounding your base with electric fence poles goes a LONG way to prevent base damage as they will be stunned most of the time unable to swing.

 

also again difficulty does not effect zombie block damage what so ever, it just effects their entity damage, and the player gets a damage penalty based on it. Warrior difficulty zombies do 150% dmg (normals hit for 15 insted of 10 on warrior, their base is 10 dmg), and the player does 83 or 87% of their normal damage (So a 13-17% penalty). However as I said, block damage is not effected. Even a MP base could get by pretty much untouched if its planned and trapped properly.

[HungryZombie]

Yes I mean you cannot defend your base from the horde without Steel. Obviously it depends on several factors:

 

1) Difficulty level (was Warrior)

2) Multiplayer over-tuned GS (our combined GS - for 2 players - was 320 on day 21, possibly a bug)

 

Horde destroyed a re-enforced concrete base with ease despite us firing 2000 rounds from tier 6 guns. And yes it was Demolishers. LOTS of Demolishers.

 

p.s. Forget solo play, it is now easy mode in A18 because GS is not scaled except by difficulty. I am talking about MP.

 

p.p.s We refuse to exploit this crappy AI, so mazes are out of bounds.

 

And feel free to inform me where to loot a Crucible. I have been everywhere.

 

Ok that's good feedback. I get what you are saying. I agree it would cripple someone who only wants to build the same type of defense every game and not make use of the various traps and techniques available. Since you are not willing to "exploit" as you put it then I can see how you would be totally frustrated.

[Scyris]

Yes I mean you cannot defend your base from the horde without Steel. Obviously it depends on several factors:

 

1) Difficulty level (was Warrior)

2) Multiplayer over-tuned GS (our combined GS - for 2 players - was 320 on day 21, possibly a bug)

 

Horde destroyed a re-enforced concrete base with ease despite us firing 2000 rounds from tier 6 guns. And yes it was Demolishers. LOTS of Demolishers.

 

p.s. Forget solo play, it is now easy mode in A18 because GS is not scaled except by difficulty. I am talking about MP.

 

p.p.s We refuse to exploit this crappy AI, so mazes are out of bounds.

 

And feel free to inform me where to loot a Crucible. I have been everywhere.

 

For crucible I find most schematics or made ones in working stiff boxes, they seem to have the highest chance. I think in one game I found a fully made crucible in a garbage bag. Which really made me scratch my head and wonder wtf that was doing in there. Was in the very first a18 public experimental build so unsure if its still in the garbage bag loot list now. Can also get the schematic from bookstore shelves and boxes, but probally at a much lower chance due to the large pool of things it can pull from compared to the working stiff boxes.

 

if mazes are out of bounds use a ton of electric fence poles surrounding the base, a stunned zombie doesn't do any block damage and are very easy headshots.

[Ramethzer0]

I'm just sitting here rubbing my head wondering how to exploit zombie AI without using tools and brains to do it. I mean, the entire focus of the game is survival by exploiting said weaknesses. The moment you put a block down or built anything, you're exploiting the zombie AI. They have to react to you, and their new environment. You're essentially exploiting them no matter what you make or base you live or fight in. Some styles are just better at it than others.

 

I mean, I won't stop you from playing how you want to play - but some of the greatest victories in human history were won coupled with sheer trickery. If you're not willing to make concessions to that, then no amount of advice is going to actually help you. Survival requires strategy. Strategy requires understanding the enemy. If you think a maze or some other means of exploiting them is somehow not manly or you're doing it to 'cuck the libs' then I got a mantra for you from the US Army, "Work smarter, not harder"

[Orclover]

And feel free to inform me where to loot a Crucible. I have been everywhere.

 

I picked up one on day 5 with 3 points into lucky looter (level 7 or 8 I think) just a while ago. Think I got it out of a working stiff crate from a level 2 POI fetch mission. Emphasis on "Lucky Looter" is key, the difference from what I loot vs my other peeps is enormous. On a previous server I have seen it pop up after week 2 in a crate and once I swear from a low rank mission reward. I would say it is about as common as a beaker.

[Jugginator]

SO far I've only found 2, once at a book store in the 4th week in one run and once at a trader after day 40... I max out lucky looter asap too lol. Why I hate RNG on important stuff sometimes, RNG hates me and I hate RNG -- we've got an abusive relationship.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I have gotten to knuckles 4 now at threat level 130 dealing with glowing cop zombies. Knuckles are effectively worthless at this point. Guns or die. Been thinking about drinking the fergettin potion and respeccing as hammer, at least that is always viable.

 

Are you drinking? Beer ups the damage by 300%, and correct me if i am wrong, but that also stacks with the moonshine. The glowing cop zombies are supposed to be tough, but with beer the game goes from being a zombie game to being a fist of the north star game where every punch makes a head explode.

 

but i have been doing fort/strength build, and the baseball bat is where it is at, that ragdoll effect is off the chain.

[Synvastian]

all the peeps on here complaining about Steel, and the thread focus was on Fortitude and Brawler...beer garden is a must for brawler, as well as a stock of painkillers (def buff is nice) fort bites, Steel or Military armor (higher def vs mobility) always have a way out, and when S*** hits the fan, a good DPS gun (Ak for all round, lower mag but faster reload so no getting stuck in animation as long, or the M60 for pure amount of lead you can throw in a short time)

[Maynard69]

Last I checked Paladin's are supposed to have crappy damage. At least you get to be Paladins with a machine gun.

 

 

Edit*

 

Just realized this sounds pretty dumb talking about knuckles, but Fortitude, healing factor, damage mitigation, Heavy Armor- Paladin.

Guess I should have said Palamonk, but that would sound more stupid. Whatever

[Maynard69]

Look STOP THIS. Int is absolutely needed, and in fact FORCED on the player by RNG. It's that damn Crucible. If you do not get one or the schematic for making them, you absolutely have to perk to Int 10 immediately, or else your re-enforced concrete base will be torn a new hole on a decent difficulty setting. Plus if you want to craft top tier stuff, you need Steel. I hate this aspect of the game. It murders solo play. Day 30 and I have no Crucible. It's crippling.

 

If it was forced I would have had to do it by now, besides just on a whim to try out a perk or two of turrets on one short playthrough

[Sjustus548]

I find Fortitude as being one of the best for melee combat. Could be that I'm not playing on a high enough difficulty but higher difficulties aren't really made for melee combat. Aim for the head with a good set of knuckles and you can kill or disable zombies very easily. With a normal punch I cause a zombies head to explode or knock them out which makes them an easy kill. Except for horde nights I never see a reason to switch from using my knuckles. I'm a walking tank that can't be killed.

[Kage848]

Look STOP THIS. Int is absolutely needed, and in fact FORCED on the player by RNG. It's that damn Crucible. If you do not get one or the schematic for making them, you absolutely have to perk to Int 10 immediately, or else your re-enforced concrete base will be torn a new hole on a decent difficulty setting. Plus if you want to craft top tier stuff, you need Steel. I hate this aspect of the game. It murders solo play. Day 30 and I have no Crucible. It's crippling.

 

Steel is int 10? That's crazy. They really need to rethink that. My god.

[Ghostlight]

Maybe you need to rethink base layout or trap layout, electric fence traps are godly, they won't kill anything, but they stun anything and makes them easy headshot targets for 1 hit kills with a shotgun. If the zombies are bashing your walls a lot your base layout is crap. Or you don't have the proper protection, surrounding your base with electric fence poles goes a LONG way to prevent base damage as they will be stunned most of the time unable to swing.

 

also again difficulty does not effect zombie block damage what so ever, it just effects their entity damage, and the player gets a damage penalty based on it. Warrior difficulty zombies do 150% dmg (normals hit for 15 insted of 10 on warrior, their base is 10 dmg), and the player does 83 or 87% of their normal damage (So a 13-17% penalty). However as I said, block damage is not effected. Even a MP base could get by pretty much untouched if its planned and trapped properly.

 

I will re-state this since it probably wasn't clear. This was temporary base. A stop-gap 10x10 cube built beside our magnificent fortress base that hadn't had all the electrics installed yet so was not quite ready for action. I was simply pointing out that in MP a concrete base will be destroyed very quickly if you are fighting old-school (no maze or ramp exploits) and you will need Steel. By day 21 potentially (which is way way WAY earlier than you'd ever need Steel in any previous alpha) due to demolishers.

 

I am well aware that difficulty doesn't affect block damage but gamestage affects zombie numbers and type and is out of whack in MP. That was my point.

 

Not to mention you need Steel for most top tier recipes. Locking it behind Int 10 is not good design.

[Ghostlight]

Ok that's good feedback. I get what you are saying. I agree it would cripple someone who only wants to build the same type of defense every game and not make use of the various traps and techniques available. Since you are not willing to "exploit" as you put it then I can see how you would be totally frustrated.

 

The only thing I am frustrated with is Steel being locked behind Int 10. Oh, and people who have not experienced the ridiculous gamestage over-tuning in MP thinking they know what I am talking about. That is also frustrating.

 

And for the record, our main fortress base is a cunning design that has evolved slowly since alpha14, incorporating the ideas of my entire co-op group and is verging on perfect (imho). A lot of time and design has gone into perfecting it. Every time we build it it gets a new idea here or there added to make it even better. In the game in question we simply hadn't finished it yet so we threw up a concrete box as a stop-gap. However the main base needs Steel due to a redesign we had to add for Demolishers.

 

if mazes are out of bounds use a ton of electric fence poles surrounding the base, a stunned zombie doesn't do any block damage and are very easy headshots.

 

Hehe, we don't need electric fences. Our design is much more cunning.

[Ghostlight]

I'm just sitting here rubbing my head wondering how to exploit zombie AI without using tools and brains to do it. I mean, the entire focus of the game is survival by exploiting said weaknesses. The moment you put a block down or built anything, you're exploiting the zombie AI. They have to react to you, and their new environment. You're essentially exploiting them no matter what you make or base you live or fight in. Some styles are just better at it than others.

 

I mean, I won't stop you from playing how you want to play - but some of the greatest victories in human history were won coupled with sheer trickery. If you're not willing to make concessions to that, then no amount of advice is going to actually help you. Survival requires strategy. Strategy requires understanding the enemy. If you think a maze or some other means of exploiting them is somehow not manly or you're doing it to 'cuck the libs' then I got a mantra for you from the US Army, "Work smarter, not harder"

 

I hear what you are saying but it is ridiculously easy to exploit the AI with a few infinite ramps or mazes once you know its rules. At least it was in A17, I haven't actually bothered to try in A18, but as far as I can see it would still be easy. Problem is it would trivialize horde night and we don't want to do that. We want danger and threat. And we want to build bases that would handle any AI. Our rule of thumb is the base must be able to handle every AI in every alpha we ever played, and not just the super easy to exploit AI they added in A17. And must utilize no ramp or maze exploits.

[meganoth]

I hear what you are saying but it is ridiculously easy to exploit the AI with a few infinite ramps or mazes once you know its rules. At least it was in A17, I haven't actually bothered to try in A18, but as far as I can see it would still be easy. Problem is it would trivialize horde night and we don't want to do that. We want danger and threat. And we want to build bases that would handle any AI. Our rule of thumb is the base must be able to handle every AI in every alpha we ever played, and not just the super easy to exploit AI they added in A17. And must utilize no ramp or maze exploits.

 

You use a temporary and insufficient horde base instead of the real horde base and then complain you need steel? No, you either need a base design for the real horde base that grows with the demand or you need a better design for the temporary base.

 

If you play as if steel was guaranteed then make it guaranteed (through INT). Otherwise plan with concrete.