Un-craftable wooden bow parts...

[ubai]

There are many good things in A18 so far, but making wooden bow parts un-craftable is silly. Not explicitly stating in the description that the perk is useless if you have no bow parts is silly AND disingenuous. People have been making bows for about 3,000 years, so it's definitely not advanced spaceman technology.

 

I get that you want people to explore and loot and such, but this kind of hamfisted silliness ain't the way to get it done. I haven't poked through the new data files yet, but hopefully I can mod this out and we can all pretend it never happened.

[Kalarro]

I missed beeing encouraged to go out and explore and loot with the removal of recipes in a17. So Im happy they encouraged it again in a18. But there are limits, not beeing able to craft a simple bow without parts...

Guns is another thing, since it's like the top of the top. But a bow is a basic tool. So now we cant just craft bows and meanwhile guns drop everywhere. I liked guns as a last resort thing at least until late game

[Gazz]

Correction: You can craft a simple bow without special parts. Just not the more advanced ones.

[ubai]

My argument is with the Archery perk, so the primitive bow (which is useless, you're better off with a spear) doesn't apply to this discussion. The first USEFUL wooden bow (which requires the perk) uses un-craftable bow parts.

[Ghostlight]

So we've gone back to A16 then....you can't craft guns (and bows?!) without first finding parts or dismantling another weapon. I like it!

[Scyris]

So we've gone back to A16 then....you can't craft guns (and bows?!) without first finding parts or dismantling another weapon. I like it!

 

Hate to tell you, you could craft wooden bow and crossbow in a16 without any special parts unlike the guns. I do feel the amount of mats to make higher tier stuff needs to be adjusted, as its +100% mat cost each time. Part of the reason for the weapon/armor parts is so players cannot mass produce them and sell them to trader for massive profit. The other part is to slow down progression and get people out looting.

 

Sadly for me this has had a negative effect as I now see almost no point to crafting weapons or tools anymore, its just too costly, easier to scavenge and use what I find. Isin't much point atm to cooking either with how common canned food is. Same for boiling water, past day 1 you should be swimming in it from looting a poi or 2. In my current game I have over 300 raw meat sitting in a chest I've never had any reason to use, as I find more than enough canned food to keep me going. The loot rates on defaults need some serious looking at, as they are far to high and stuff is far to common. A17 had the balance about right, but they kinda ruined it in a18 by making things far to easy to get.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

So we've gone back to A16 then....you can't craft guns (and bows?!) without first finding parts or dismantling another weapon. I like it!

 

Hate to tell you, you could craft wooden bow and crossbow in a16 without any special parts unlike the guns. I do feel the amount of mats to make higher tier stuff needs to be adjusted, as its +100% mat cost each time. Part of the reason for the weapon/armor parts is so players cannot mass produce them and sell them to trader for massive profit. The other part is to slow down progression and get people out looting.

 

Sadly for me this has had a negative effect as I now see almost no point to crafting weapons or tools anymore, its just too costly, easier to scavenge and use what I find. Isin't much point atm to cooking either with how common canned food is. Same for boiling water, past day 1 you should be swimming in it from looting a poi or 2. In my current game I have over 300 raw meat sitting in a chest I've never had any reason to use, as I find more than enough canned food to keep me going. The loot rates on defaults need some serious looking at, as they are far to high and stuff is far to common. A17 had the balance about right, but they kinda ruined it in a18 by making things far to easy to get.

 

I do agree however that needing wooden bow parts IS extremly stupid, as there is no mechanical parts involved. It makes sense for the crossbow or compound bow, but not the wooden bow, its literally a stick and a string.

[canadianbluebeer]

ahh, but is better wood (and glue) and a better string.

 

 

(I'm stuck trying to find the stupid parts too. Found a lvl 3 xbow though, so..)

[quyxkh]

I think the biggest sin is advertising that the very first archery perk "unlocks wooden bow crafting", when it really doesn't. A perk point spend is basically _the_ major expense early, telling people they can craft better bows if they spend this point and then ha ha no you can't we fooled you they're not wooden bows, they're "Wooden Bow Parts" bows!, is maybe even a little contemptuous of beginners' ignorance. Add "from (looted or scrapped) Wooden Bow Parts" to the perk point description, that'd help.

[Ghostlight]

Hate to tell you, you could craft wooden bow and crossbow in a16 without any special parts unlike the guns.

 

Well it's guns I care about.

 

I now see almost no point to crafting weapons or tools anymore, its just too costly, easier to scavenge and use what I find.

 

I assumed if I had Gunslinger at level 5 and collected all the parts (including by dismantling some level 1 Pistols) that I could then construct a level 5 Pistol. Do I have that wrong?

 

In my current game I have over 300 raw meat sitting in a chest I've never had any reason to use, as I find more than enough canned food to keep me going

 

I don't get it. We are seeing little to no canned food. This is 3 people looting the backside out of a city while I mine. We are always about 1 meal away from starving.

[Roland]

I think the biggest sin is advertising that the very first archery perk "unlocks wooden bow crafting", when it really doesn't. A perk point spend is basically _the_ major expense early, telling people they can craft better bows if they spend this point and then ha ha no you can't we fooled you they're not wooden bows, they're "Wooden Bow Parts" bows!, is maybe even a little contemptuous of beginners' ignorance. Add "from (looted or scrapped) Wooden Bow Parts" to the perk point description, that'd help.

 

No.

 

Even beginners should know that crafting involves both the knowledge and also a recipe. What craftable item in the game can be made with knowledge only and no recipe? None. There is nothing disingenuous about it. You gain the knowledge and then gather the mats to craft. You cannot craft wood or stone or feathers-- you go out and find them. You also cannot craft bow parts-- you go out and find them. There is nothing different about this than any other part of the game.

 

Spending the perk point begins your quest of finding the parts so you can craft one. The perks also give bonuses besides the ability to craft.

 

Now a valid criticism in my mind of the current system is that you should be able to choose to craft any tier of a weapon at or below your current perk level instead of being forced to only craft the best one you can. If I only have 9 parts I might want to craft that level of a bow rather than having to keep looking for 12 parts for the better level bow.

 

Perhaps another valid criticism would be that the world needs to be stocked with more parts to be found or maybe more whole weapons at the brown quality level so that you have lots of material to scrap for parts. But to say that there is a bait and switch going on here is wrong.

[Roland]

I don't get it. We are seeing little to no canned food. This is 3 people looting the backside out of a city while I mine. We are always about 1 meal away from starving.

 

Purchasing from vending machines and doing buried treasure quests may be the difference if you aren't doing those two things in addition to scavenging.

[vedrit]

Purchasing from vending machines and doing buried treasure quests may be the difference if you aren't doing those two things in addition to scavenging.

 

Before, I completely ignored vending machines. Now? I'm buying from them every few days.

[Scyris]

Before, I completely ignored vending machines. Now? I'm buying from them every few days.

 

They actually restock daily, I try to visit my traders each day to see what it has.

[quyxkh]

You cannot craft wood or stone or feathers-- you go out and find them. You also cannot craft bow parts-- you go out and find them. There is nothing different about this than any other part of the game.

Who exactly am I to suppose is unable to tell the difference between natural and crafted items here? I don't like any of the answers to that, because they all involve that word I used.

[OldManBrian]

Who exactly am I to suppose is unable to tell the difference between natural and crafted items here? I don't like any of the answers to that, because they all involve that word I used.

 

Seriously, this absolutely IS a design problem. Why the heck would anyone expect there to be "Wood Bow" parts around in the world in the same manner as there are stones and feathers? Was there an robin hood convention in town right before the apocalypse?

 

It's frustrating as a user not knowing what you're getting into with these perks. Like has been said, they are the most limited and crucial choices for a player starting out, and to waste one on something that you can't even use is a big deal and letdown.

 

There should just be some small bullet points about any requirements or limitations for those perk descriptions.

 

Sure, everyone could just "Get Gud" and figure it out, but not before being thoroughly annoyed and frustrated about the lack of clarity in the available choices.

[Brian9824]

Purchasing from vending machines and doing buried treasure quests may be the difference if you aren't doing those two things in addition to scavenging.

 

Yeah I realized that yesterday. Those buried treasure quests are nice. Often get 2-3 canned foods, plus xp, dukes, and rewards such as valuable meds. I'm finding the trader to be much more important now.

[Gazz]

The recipe for the wooden bow lets you look up the description.

It tells you that a wooden bow scraps to the parts so you know where they are from.

 

In the same crafting menu you will find out that these parts are not craftable so I don't see how this is confusing.

[quyxkh]

The recipe for the wooden bow lets you look up the description.

It tells you that a wooden bow scraps to the parts so you know where they are from.

 

In the same crafting menu you will find out that these parts are not craftable so I don't see how this is confusing.

 

Would not expecting to need loot-only "campfire parts" to make campfires be too naïve? Would ~you should have checked~ be a reasonable response to that? Arrows out of loot-only "arrow parts"? I learned it, I'll deal with it, done. Had that problem and it won't happen to me again, but it left a bad taste and the response is baffling… unless it's got something to do with those two words I used. I can see bringing heat like those was uncalled for, please accept sincere apologies for using them no matter what you do with this.

 

I'll match my deeply-leery-of-realism-arguments cred against anybody's. All I'm arguing is my view, that people legitimately expect to be able to craft a "wooden bow" out of natural or craftable parts after just having made arrows and campfires and carpentry frames — which they wouldn't expect for say compoud bows or pistols — and that y'all might have lost a little perspective on the introductory experience.

[Gazz]

There are no campfire parts in the game. The recipe would tell you if there were.

 

The wooden bow is also not part of the introductory experience. That is the primitive bow.

[Brian9824]

I don't see the issue either. I mean you can check the recipe anytime you want and see what you need to make it. How is it any different then saying getting access to making a steel sledgehammer but not having gotten the perks to work with steel yet?

 

If your not sure what goes into making something then just check before buying the perk.

[Roland]

There are no campfire parts in the game.

 

They're called rocks.

 

And they're uncraftable!

[sadpickle]

I would think the wooden bow should be craftable without the generic "bow parts". We have a number of things in the game that are traditionally employed in bowmaking (wood, glue, leather (hide), tallow) and the ancient nature of the bow as a weapon should reflect that. Primitive bows are primitive, yes; but simple bows that are highly effective have been made by man for years without highly specialized prefab parts. The whole point of "parts" as a class of things rather than breaking everything down into it's real-life individual components is to illustrate their exclusive and non-reproducible nature. A modern compound bow is an engineering marvel, but impossible to maintain or build again without the ability to fabricate the parts, which are not found in nature.

[Brian9824]

I would think the wooden bow should be craftable without the generic "bow parts". We have a number of things in the game that are traditionally employed in bowmaking (wood, glue, leather (hide), tallow) and the ancient nature of the bow as a weapon should reflect that. Primitive bows are primitive, yes; but simple bows that are highly effective have been made by man for years without highly specialized prefab parts. The whole point of "parts" as a class of things rather than breaking everything down into it's real-life individual components is to illustrate their exclusive and non-reproducible nature. A modern compound bow is an engineering marvel, but impossible to maintain or build again without the ability to fabricate the parts, which are not found in nature.

 

Well AFAIK wooden bows aren't just made with random wood. The wood has to be treated and prepared ahead of time to handle the tension, the string needs to be just right to provide enough resistance without snapping, etc.

 

Much like forging you can spend your entire life learning how to make a well functioning bow, not just read a book and craft one.

[sadpickle]

Well AFAIK wooden bows aren't just made with random wood. The wood has to be treated and prepared ahead of time to handle the tension, the string needs to be just right to provide enough resistance without snapping, etc.

 

Much like forging you can spend your entire life learning how to make a well functioning bow, not just read a book and craft one.

 

That's a good point. There is not enough variety or nuance in the game materials to reflect how real world bow construction works. And of course buying "perks" like the player is jacked into the Matrix and can download years of experience in one moment is also extremely game-y. But one must make a concession somewhere to gamifying real-life things to make the game itself fun to play.

[vedrit]

I would think the wooden bow should be craftable without the generic "bow parts". We have a number of things in the game that are traditionally employed in bowmaking (wood, glue, leather (hide), tallow) and the ancient nature of the bow as a weapon should reflect that. Primitive bows are primitive, yes; but simple bows that are highly effective have been made by man for years without highly specialized prefab parts. The whole point of "parts" as a class of things rather than breaking everything down into it's real-life individual components is to illustrate their exclusive and non-reproducible nature. A modern compound bow is an engineering marvel, but impossible to maintain or build again without the ability to fabricate the parts, which are not found in nature.

 

You can craft the wooden bow without bow parts.

It's called "Primitive bow" because that's what a bow without fancy parts is; a primitive bow. If you're only using raw wood and grass rope, all you'll ever get will be classified as a primitive bow, no matter how well crafted the wood and rope are. Think of the "bow parts" as all the extra, modern bits like resin, plastic, metal, synthetic string, etc. that go into making...not a primitive bow.