Un-craftable wooden bow parts...

[quyxkh]

They're called rocks.

 

And they're uncraftable!

 

Is it really that hard to see that the point is, you don't expect campfires to need some mysterious other "parts", beyond whatever rocks and wood might be needed?

 

That, if you've got rocks and wood and time and an axe, you expect to be able to make a camp fire, and going to build one and being told you should have checked whether you'll have to find "camp fire parts" first would be a remarkably offputting surprise?

[Katitof]

My argument is with the Archery perk, so the primitive bow (which is useless, you're better off with a spear) doesn't apply to this discussion. The first USEFUL wooden bow (which requires the perk) uses un-craftable bow parts.

 

And, like any other advanced weapon in game now, you get it from looting, traders and scrapping worse weapons.

No more sitting on your butt in the base whole day and getting best weapons out of it.

[Vapid Actions]

So, my problem with this isn't the "realism" or the "expectation", it's the "catch 22". So, I want a better bow, right? I look at my tree, I see a perk to make a better bow, and put a point in it. Well, that doesn't get me a better bow. I have to find a better bow to scrap before I can make that better bow.

 

Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had? This makes... no sense at all from a gameplay progression perspective. You could say "well, the bow you can craft is better than the bow you found!". But... It's not. The one I found has random rolls, where one I craft has median rolls. So there's a high likelyhood that I'm actually downgrading the bow stats by doing this. And if it would be an upgrade, there's no way to know since the menu doesn't tell you what the resulting stats would be if you were to craft one.

 

This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.

 

I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

 

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

[vedrit]

So, my problem with this isn't the "realism" or the "expectation", it's the "catch 22". So, I want a better bow, right? I look at my tree, I see a perk to make a better bow, and put a point in it. Well, that doesn't get me a better bow. I have to find a better bow to scrap before I can make that better bow.

 

Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had? This makes... no sense at all from a gameplay progression perspective. You could say "well, the bow you can craft is better than the bow you found!". But... It's not. The one I found has random rolls, where one I craft has median rolls. So there's a high likelyhood that I'm actually downgrading the bow stats by doing this. And if it would be an upgrade, there's no way to know since the menu doesn't tell you what the resulting stats would be if you were to craft one.

 

This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.

 

I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

 

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

 

It's not a catch 22. It's "Find an egg before making an omelet" except that you can later turn that omelet back into an egg (mostly)

 

Look at it from the game's perspective: Items have a set recipe, independent of the items quality. A level 5 iron pick is just as costly as a level 1 iron pick. So you want to make a level x bow? Neat, that'll require bow parts.

Also, why would "I don't need parts to make the bow, but I get bow parts scrapping it" make any sense? That would mean that you could craft bow parts, which would break the bow from any other advanced weapon in the game. If there is one thing that has been consistently true throughout 7DTD, you only get from scrapping an item what goes into making it.

[Brian9824]

So, my problem with this isn't the "realism" or the "expectation", it's the "catch 22". So, I want a better bow, right? I look at my tree, I see a perk to make a better bow, and put a point in it. Well, that doesn't get me a better bow. I have to find a better bow to scrap before I can make that better bow.

 

Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had? This makes... no sense at all from a gameplay progression perspective. You could say "well, the bow you can craft is better than the bow you found!". But... It's not. The one I found has random rolls, where one I craft has median rolls. So there's a high likelyhood that I'm actually downgrading the bow stats by doing this. And if it would be an upgrade, there's no way to know since the menu doesn't tell you what the resulting stats would be if you were to craft one.

 

This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.

 

I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

 

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

 

Can't disagree more. Farm some basic ingredients and then turn around and craft a tier 5 bow? It defeats the whole purpose and adds tedium. Parts of the bow exist in the wild, the traders can sell parts, etc. So your assuming the only way to get hte parts is to scrap a functional bow when that's not true.

 

I mean its pretty simple. There are a ton of new items, if i don't know what I need to make something I check before hand. It's not really complicated.

[OldManBrian]

I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

 

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

 

Nah for balance reasons I like that only T1 items can be crafted without lootable items.

 

Just personally I've noticed there's a good number of perks that have hidden additional requirements that aren't readily apparent and I think they should clearly list them out for user friendliness.

[Brian9824]

Nah for balance reasons I like that only T1 items can be crafted without lootable items.

 

Just personally I've noticed there's a good number of perks that have hidden additional requirements that aren't readily apparent and I think they should clearly list them out for user friendliness.

 

Umm t1 items cannot be crafted without lootable items and perks don't have hidden requirements so not sure what you are referring to.

[CannedSmeef]

The wooden bow parts (and baseball bat parts, surprised no one's mentioned that) are uncraftable for balance reasons. I mean, yes it doesn't make sense that you can't craft the parts yourself, but if you could then the bow/bat would be just a primitive bow with extra steps. The parts are loot/buy only to make finding a whole bow or crafting one yourself far more rewarding. Imagine if you could make marksman rifle parts from scratch, the gun wouldn't be fun to find anymore.

 

Not everything has to make logical sense. I mean, it doesn't make sense that stun batons don't shock enemies instantly, but if they did they would be stupid broken and everyone would exclusively use them for free stun lock.

[vedrit]

Nah for balance reasons I like that only T1 items can be crafted without lootable items.

 

Just personally I've noticed there's a good number of perks that have hidden additional requirements that aren't readily apparent and I think they should clearly list them out for user friendliness.

 

Umm t1 items cannot be crafted without lootable items and perks don't have hidden requirements so not sure what you are referring to.

 

I wonder if there's some confusion going on.

Is T1 being used to refer to things like stone axe/shovel/spear, primitive bow? Or is it being used to refer to the quality of the item crafted?

 

If it's being used to refer to stone items, then there's no way they could ever be broken down and used to make the higher "tier" stuff (Iron/steel tools/weapons) because not everything has a stone/primitive equivalent. Pistols? Hunting rifles? AKs? I wouldn't even count the blunderbuss as "primitive' because there are multiple steps required for its use (gunpowder), unlike the bow and arrow.

 

If T1 is being used to refer to basic, grey quality, then yes, they should require parts and break down into parts, in order to make higher quality items. The logic works universally. Grey primitive bow? Scrap it for wood to make a green primitive bow. Grey wooden bow? Scrap it for parts for a green wooden bow.

[Vapid Actions]

I don't like leaving progression 100% up to the RNG gods. I bring this up specifically because I'm on day 20, using a primitive bow. I have yet to find a single wooden bow, or wooden bow parts. Crafting shouldn't be cheap, but should be an option to be able to progress when RNG's light doesn't shine on you.

 

Farming those basic ingredients isn't like you just walk out and cut down a couple trees and are able to make thousands of wood bows. You still need to loot enough glue, duct tape, iron, etc.

 

To say "You get to progress because RNG shined on you, but you, you can never progress no matter how much time and work you put in until RNG decides to throw you some scraps" isn't how progression should work. Parts should be balanced. A T1 bow could be made without parts. A T2 bow requires parts from 10 bows. A T5 bow would require parts from 100 bows. Why shouldn't you be able to sit down and make a T5 bow if you've farmed hundreds of duct tape, forged iron bars, and thousands of other raw resources; When someone else can just click on a car and get one in 10 seconds?

[OldManBrian]

Umm t1 items cannot be crafted without lootable items and perks don't have hidden requirements so not sure what you are referring to.

 

Maybe I got me tiers mixed up, but by T1 I mean the starting stuff. (Primitive bow, stone axe, stone spear, etc)

 

As far as hidden requirements, yeah there are a few perks with them. New users don't realize that they're not actually going to be able to craft something they're "unlocking" with a perk point unless they're lucky and find an additional required item.

 

Bicycle Mechanic is another example of this that I've read about (but haven't tried due to my low level.) From what I've read other people warning, a number of these perks that say they allow you to craft the "parts" for the thing they're unlocking, only allow you to craft some of the "parts" while requiring you to find an additional one to actually craft it.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm not saying I want the mechanics changed, I'm just saying I'd like the descriptions changed. Technically I think most people would prefer not to unlock many of these perks until they find the required items and are ready to craft them. It would help if they didn't have to go leave the perk screen and hunt down the recipes to figure all that out. (Which won't occur to most starting players.)

[vedrit]

I don't like leaving progression 100% up to the RNG gods. I bring this up specifically because I'm on day 20, using a primitive bow. I have yet to find a single wooden bow, or wooden bow parts. Crafting shouldn't be cheap, but should be an option to be able to progress when RNG's light doesn't shine on you.

 

Farming those basic ingredients isn't like you just walk out and cut down a couple trees and are able to make thousands of wood bows. You still need to loot enough glue, duct tape, iron, etc.

 

To say "You get to progress because RNG shined on you, but you, you can never progress no matter how much time and work you put in until RNG decides to throw you some scraps" isn't how progression should work. Parts should be balanced. A T1 bow could be made without parts. A T2 bow requires parts from 10 bows. A T5 bow would require parts from 100 bows. Why shouldn't you be able to sit down and make a T5 bow if you've farmed hundreds of duct tape, forged iron bars, and thousands of other raw resources; When someone else can just click on a car and get one in 10 seconds?

 

Because if you could reach end-game items just by grinding out the crafting (as it used to be) is OP and no one would bother searching for weapons or weapon parts. They'd grind out the gear, and any they found was scrapped/recycled/sold because it was inferior.

7 Days To Die is the apocalypse. There's a lot that simply cannot be made by human hands anymore because the parts are too small, or the metal is too tough, or the design too complex. There's no machining table, no CNC routers, no CAD. You have to work with what you find.

[Vapid Actions]

Because if you could reach end-game items just by grinding out the crafting (as it used to be) is OP and no one would bother searching for weapons or weapon parts. They'd grind out the gear, and any they found was scrapped/recycled/sold because it was inferior.

7 Days To Die is the apocalypse. There's a lot that simply cannot be made by human hands anymore because the parts are too small, or the metal is too tough, or the design too complex. There's no machining table, no CNC routers, no CAD. You have to work with what you find.

 

This has already been addressed with the RNG system for item stats. What you can craft can never compete with what you can find. Looting is now the be all end all. Not to mention recipies and magazines to push looting as a primary activity. I'm at risk of losing my game not because of the choices i'm making, not because of my planning, not because of mistakes, but because the game is outpacing me due to RNG not shining on me. That's not how progression as a mechanic should work. Talking gameplay design not "mah realizm".

 

There is no reason whatsoever to make looting the one and only way to play the game, making the crafting system almost completely useless. The crafting system right now is useful for wooden frames, your first starting tools, and *maybe* workbenches. Beyond that first three hours of gameplay, crafting really does nothing for you, since it only allows you to make worse versions of what you find by first finding that thing.

 

I understand making looting more important. But I feel like this is a real blizzard style balancing move. Fifteen people come up with ways to give it more power, and instead of picking the balanced option, they just apply all of them. RNG stat generation for lategame, and books early game already push looting ahead. To completely disable all other options is a step too far.

[Kosmic Kerman]

I found two wooden bows by about day 6 without doing a whole lot of looting. I’m pretty sure MM’s intention is to introduce variability in each game based on what you find and what you perk into. The ability to craft T2 weapons like the wooden bow removes part of this variability and would seem to go against the basic game-design. If you like to always play with a bow and really can’t stand the primitive bow you can make changes to the xml to increase the damage of the primitive bow or change the recipe for the T2 wooden bow.

[vedrit]

What you can craft can never compete with what you can find.

Except that's a bold-faced lie. For one, looting top-quality items is exceptionally rare, vs crafting. Plus, You're just as likely to get garbage rolls on looted weapons as you are to find superb. Crafting is always constant. Sure, it may not *always* be better, but you can't win them all.

Also consider that looting has always been pushed by the devs. They do NOT want you to sit inside your fortress and ignore zombies. They do NOT want you to ever be safe.

 

I'm at risk of losing my game not because of the choices i'm making, not because of my planning, not because of mistakes, but because the game is outpacing me due to RNG

I'm sorry that you are having terrible luck. Some times it happens. Sometimes it's better to just roll a new map and a new save.

[OldManBrian]

I'm sorry that you are having terrible luck. Some times it happens. Sometimes it's better to just roll a new map and a new save.

 

I actually like this aspect of the game, I prefer being "stuck" without something due to randomness, it adds flavor to each playthrough. Now that being said, in older builds I used modded settings where I had like 4x XP gain, 4x resource and loot gain, 1/4 dmg from zombies, 3x zombie numbers, 3x dmg to zombies, instakill headshots, and 20 min days.

 

Basically I played at a breakneck speed with lots of weak zombies. So in that case part of the experience was running myself ragged and then starting a new game, so restarts were just part of the game for me.

[Gazz]

This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.

 

I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

 

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

Yep, that's how the system is set up.

The T1 bow is craftable from basic resources, the T2 and T3 bows require parts.

[Roland]

Yep, that's how the system is set up.

The T1 bow is craftable from basic resources, the T2 and T3 bows require parts.

 

They mean T1 vs T2 as in brown quality vs orange quality and not T1 vs T2 as in Primitive Bow vs Wooden Bow

[Vapid Actions]

If there's a problem with crafting yourself into lategame, it could also be set up so that T1 (quality tier) don't provide parts on dismantle. So you can still craft a progression into a certain item, but it's going to be a poor version of that item without having "pre-war" if you will, parts to work with.

 

But I can 100% say, without a shred of a doubt, as much as I love so many other changes in act 18: the excellent sound design changes, the changes to zombie behaviour at night and spawning, the slowed leveling, so many great changes. But this, I detest this choice to its very core. We're not even talking endgame items here, not an M42 machine gun, not a marksman rifle, we're talking about an early game progression item. There's still the compound bow past the wooden bow. I'm sorry, I don't think I can be convinced that RNG should be the only way to play a survival game.

[Brian9824]

They mean T1 vs T2 as in brown quality vs orange quality and not T1 vs T2 as in Primitive Bow vs Wooden Bow

 

Yeah thats what i was thinking, but i see how Gazz was referring to it and that makes sense as well

[Gazz]

I refer to the other thing as quality levels because calling both "tiers" gets mighty confusing. =P

[Roland]

If there's a problem with crafting yourself into lategame, it could also be set up so that T1 (quality tier) don't provide parts on dismantle. So you can still craft a progression into a certain item, but it's going to be a poor version of that item without having "pre-war" if you will, parts to work with.

 

But I can 100% say, without a shred of a doubt, as much as I love so many other changes in act 18: the excellent sound design changes, the changes to zombie behaviour at night and spawning, the slowed leveling, so many great changes. But this, I detest this choice to its very core. We're not even talking endgame items here, not an M42 machine gun, not a marksman rifle, we're talking about an early game progression item. There's still the compound bow past the wooden bow. I'm sorry, I don't think I can be convinced that RNG should be the only way to play a survival game.

 

There have been a few iterations of the game where guns were not craftable at all. Were you this upset about gun crafting when we had parts for assembling? You couldn't craft those parts either.

 

There was no gun crafting and then molds came in and there was gun crafting then molds were cut and there was gun assembling from looted parts and then the parts were cut and we could craft guns using basic materials (and a schematic that got used up) and now we can craft guns where one component is non-craftable and must be found.

 

Sounds like the frustration comes from not getting an immediate payoff for spending the point. You wanted to spend the point and then make your better bow and you couldn't because you were missing some recipe items. So what? That should give you purpose. It is like an emergent quest for you and you alone.

 

Guess what? When you perk into the Workbench you aren't going to immediately be able to make everything on the list. You're going to have to go out and gather mats.

[Vapid Actions]

There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding.

 

I don't care if I cant make a second tier bow for the first 40 days. If that's the way it is, then so be it, that's a progression rate change. My argument is not payoff time, my argument is accessibility. With the system now, it doesn't matter how much time you put into the game. The *only* thing that matters is RNG.

 

Wasting a perk point? Aggravating, sure, but learn and live. Next time I won't put points into it, I brushed that off in a matter of seconds. The bigger problem is that RNG is the one and only way to progress the game. I could loot every single poi, every single lootable in the game, be level 700, and still theoretically not be able to get past the "primitive bow" in item progression. That's extremely unlikely, but still technically possible, that's RNG.

 

Did previous crafting system changes make me hate them so much? No. Because they weren't drastic steps back. The crafting system has been finding its footing. It's roll should be as a fail safe, or safety net. If RNG really hates you, crafting should be there. Crafting should be more time consuming, but offer an alternative route. If I go out to brave the world to hunt down a hundred animals for bones, and collect bottles for water to make glue, dismantle a city square's worth the furniture for cloth and combine to make enough duct tape to tide over the most red green of us all, cut down a mountain for the iron, and deforest a continent. I should be able to catch up to the player that clicked on a box and just rolled the die correctly.

 

If it's really about who's more safe doing what, was the person who found the right box really at greater risk than the person who had to be out in the world gathering all those resources?

 

I believe it may have been Gazz earlier who mentioned that availability of the parts may be causing more stress on the system than necessary, exaggerating the issue, and hinted that potentially they might need to spawn a bit more frequently. But when I say I hate this to its core, I mean exactly that, no more no less. This is a "core" flaw in that, as I stated earlier, it's possible (however improbable) to depopulate an entire map of all lootables and resources and not be able to progress. It is a hard block with no failsafe.

 

Lets also not mistaking hating a change with being upset. Saying that I was upset with the system because I wanted instant gratification was more than a little childish Roland. I do not want instant gratification, I want routes available outside of RNG. Which is actually quite close to the definition of the exact opposite: delayed gratification - to be able to work to something over time instead of wanting to just instantly get it.

[Roland]

You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.

 

The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

 

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

 

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

 

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

[vedrit]

-snip-

 

I think that the RNG fits 7DTD perfectly. Every day is supposed to be uncertain. You may not find food. You may not find parts. You may find a landmine under your foot. Yes, it sucks when RNG rolls against you. Yes, it can be exceptionally aggravating. But that's how it do.

And yes, the person who's out gathering resources -is- safer than the one out exploring and looting. You can plant trees and gardens on the roof of your base or inside a perimeter wall full of turrets and traps. You can find an ore vein and dig tunnels to it, reinforced with steel and yet more turrets. You can gather what you need without really putting yourself in danger. Adventuring to POI's gets increasingly dangerous the further away from your base you go, and as time passes that becomes necessary as everything closer has been picked clean.

 

I wouldn't say that the system in A18 is a step back. If anything, it's a step forward. Want to know how many times I had an incomplete tool or weapon in previous versions because I was missing that ONE component to complete it? Far too often. Now? There's only one item you have to loot/buy, everything else can be gathered and crafted. Sure, as you've experience that one item can still be frustratingly rare, but I still think it's an improvement.