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ubai

Un-craftable wooden bow parts...

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You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.

 

The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

 

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

 

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

 

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

 

Even if they did destroy every loot container you could still buy it from the traders. So its really impossible to not get parts. It might take a few days but its a statistical certainty.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I think that the RNG fits 7DTD perfectly. Every day is supposed to be uncertain. You may not find food. You may not find parts. You may find a landmine under your foot. Yes, it sucks when RNG rolls against you. Yes, it can be exceptionally aggravating. But that's how it do.

And yes, the person who's out gathering resources -is- safer than the one out exploring and looting. You can plant trees and gardens on the roof of your base or inside a perimeter wall full of turrets and traps. You can find an ore vein and dig tunnels to it, reinforced with steel and yet more turrets. You can gather what you need without really putting yourself in danger. Adventuring to POI's gets increasingly dangerous the further away from your base you go, and as time passes that becomes necessary as everything closer has been picked clean.

 

I wouldn't say that the system in A18 is a step back. If anything, it's a step forward. Want to know how many times I had an incomplete tool or weapon in previous versions because I was missing that ONE component to complete it? Far too often. Now? There's only one item you have to loot/buy, everything else can be gathered and crafted. Sure, as you've experience that one item can still be frustratingly rare, but I still think it's an improvement.

 

Yep, every playthru i do is different becaues of that. What items i find to start, what POI's are near me, etc

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You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.

 

The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

 

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

 

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

 

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

 

Apology accepted. I like the idea of holding off on all perks until after day 7. You're right - don't need them to deal with the horde that early anyways. I was contemplating something similar, but I think day 8 is a reasonable frame. I'll probably just spend 3 to get level 2 lucky looter because it's so loot heavy now, then leave it at that until I find something worth running with.

 

So far in A18, I've only had one playthrough (only so much time in a day), which sadly ended this afternoon on Day 23 after I fell through the floor in a PoI and just couldn't fight through the zombies. However, by day 23, I still hadn't found a wooden bow or any wooden bow parts =p. Trader wasn't really an option. The closest trader was a full day's trip to get to and back with a bicycle: far too much time investment for the off chance.

 

New world I've spawned immediately next to a city with both a shotgun messiah factory and a shamway factory, with the trader a hop, skip, and jump away (about 20 ingame minutes). So we'll see how the progression system feels with all the loot at my fingertips.

 

I still don't like that there's no option other than RNG sam-I-am, I do not like it here nor there, I do not like it anywhere. My particularly poor RWG probably exacerbated the problem, but I still believe fully it's a core issue to lock the crafting system to only be able to remake items you've broken down. I think that's fine, or even great for upgrading quality, but I don't agree with the base quality requiring parts.

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The issue here(for me) is not that parts are required, it's that archery doesn't tell you about the additional parts requirement of the wooden bow.

 

Day 1. Hey archery allows you to make wooden bows! *puts point in* oh wait...

 

Day 6. Hey I found a t2 wooden bow.

 

6 days and never used the crafting recipe once. Wasted perk point.

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The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

That's not even a theoretical case. =)

Every quest - even if you fail - respawns the POI that you go to.

 

 

6 days and never used the crafting recipe once. Wasted perk point.

The bow perk is not a waste if you are using a bow because the recipe unlock is not all it does.

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That's not even a theoretical case. =)

Every quest - even if you fail - respawns the POI that you go to.

 

Respawns it, theoretically, still without any wooden bow parts within. ;)

 

Albeit highly improbable, my last playthrough already proved it's possible to get to day 23 looting poi's almost every day and never get any wooden bow parts. I know it shouldn't be intended for that late, as I've seen several other players get a wooden bow day 1/2 from a lucky box.

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I am all for the change in needing weapon parts again, but the bow should not be included.

 

For me fireguns should be the "special" thing to use in the game. You should use them in 2 situations: eary/mid game for specific situations or endgame.

The bow on the other side is a basic survival weapon. You should use be able to use it a lot. Im not saying remove the perk parts which you can always chose to pick, but it should be craftable from gathering components, not built from random lootchance parts like fireweapons.

 

And Im very sorry to hear devs use an argument like: "you also have to find uncraftable rocks, its the same as finding uncraftable weapon parts". That's an argument my GF would use when in rage mode, picking something and taking it totally out of context. Sure, tocks, feathers, ores, and such things are not craftable, but they are gather materials you can find everywhere. You can focus on farming a specific one of them. Weapon parts are lootable items you find by chance. Using that argument just because rocks are not craftable is terrible.

Edited by Kalarro (see edit history)

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I am all for the change in needing weapon parts again, but the bow should not be included.

 

For me fireguns should be the "special" thing to use in the game. You should use them in 2 situations: eary/mid game for specific situations or endgame.

The bow on the other side is a basic survival weapon. You should use be able to use it a lot. Im not saying remove the perk parts which you can always chose to pick, but it should be craftable from gathering components, not built from random lootchance parts like fireweapons.

 

And Im very sorry to hear devs use an argument like: "you also have to find uncraftable rocks, its the same as finding uncraftable weapon parts". That's an argument my GF would use when in rage mode, picking something and taking it totally out of context. Sure, tocks, feathers, ores, and such things are not craftable, but they are gather materials you can find everywhere. You can focus on farming a specific one of them. Weapon parts are lootable items you find by chance. Using that argument just because rocks are not craftable is terrible.

 

Except the now is usable a lot. You have the primitive bow which is for early game, the wood bow for mid game, and the compound bow for end game.

 

So you can already build the bow from gathering components and it can kill normal zombies quite well.

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So you can already build the bow from gathering components and it can kill normal zombies quite well.

 

If that is the case, awesome. I havent been able to try it out yet, but almost every review I read about it says the new basic bow is useless. If it is not true, then it's fine.

 

the topic specially worries me bc loot seems to be a bit out of hand. Every video I watch I see players at day 2 or 3 already stocked up on fireguns and ammunition, which IMO should be rare at least until endgame

Edited by Kalarro (see edit history)

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Stocked up on guns and ammo, which not necessarily is of good quality early game doesn't mean much. I once looted a T1 and T3 iron axe and they have a somewhat huge difference in damage. Imagine between guns, where the base damage is higher, you'll have bigger differences. And yes, Primitive Bow (let's call basic weapon) can be crafted from basic materials, only Wooden Bow (let's call it intermediate) and Compound Bow (let's all it advanced) need materials, each of their own.

 

I think i know what the gist is of the topic here. In short: OPTIONS

 

Firstly, i would like to address something that noone really mentioned. I would love to have the option to choose the crafting quality i want to make. For example, i could be able to craft T4 Wooden Bow, but gathered enough for a T3. Now i NEED that bow, so it's better for me to craft a T3 and gathering materials for a T4 would take too much time. Another example, i could be making T2, but prefer to make T1 and leave the rest of the materials for a T3 or T4 later on. I know tiers are supposed to work like "yeah, i know how to do it better", but considering it also needs more materials, it should have an option to choose what tier you want to craft.

 

Secondly, something for mid to late game. ALTERNATIVES. As much as i like being dependant on RNG, it's always better to have options. I'm pretty sure the trader and looting seems like enough and perhaps this suggestion is something more of an end game. Why not introduce some kind of special workbench, machine or perk that would be able to craft these parts? Considering we are able to craft intricate items as switches, dart traps, various sensors, turrets, doors, hatches and draw bridges, as well many others, there is no sense we are not able to make such small "items" for craft only a handful of weapons.

 

From technological standpoint, you should be able to craft practically anything, from gameplay standpoint not necessarily. So, second suggestion: Add a way to craft "parts" in some difficult, not easy to obtain way, requiring a couple steps to get/produce or simply introduce a mechanic for "requesting" some materials at a trader. Like, you know you want specifically bow parts and after the shop refreshes it allows you to buy some bow parts, along with low level bows.

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Allowing people to craft bow parts (or any parts) does not unbalance a game. If the designers do a good job, you don't need kludgy mechanics like magic bow parts that fall from heaven to keep the dirty players from wrecking your "vision".

 

On reflection, I wish I hadn't posted anything about this, because modding makes the whole thing pointless. One of the greatest things about 7DtD is that it lets you mod out almost anything you don't like or agree with. It's kind of like Fallout 4 in that the base game is kind of a train wreck, but mods turn it into a gem.

 

If you like the magic random bow parts, more power to you. If you're like me and you think you should be able to craft things in a game where crafting is one of its biggest draws, then mod the game.

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I havent been able to try it out yet, but almost every review I read about it says the new basic bow is useless. If it is not true, then it's fine.

 

I would guess even the wooden and compound bow can't compete with higher tier guns on raw damage output, just like in previous alphas. The bows shine only when used with stealth.

In previous alphas the normal bow was even somewhat overpowered (easy ammo+stealth+damage) so the majority of players used it the whole game through and guns as fallback.

 

Now the primitve bow is a band aid just like every other tier1 weapon. It probably will get somewhat better if you perk into bows, but I doubt anyone will be content to use ANY tier1 weapon in mid-game. The simple bow as the universal weapon used by level 90 players is history.

 

 

Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had?

 

Am I wrong in thinking that you can buy or find weapon parts as well? If not then that should be happening in the game, at least the trader should have weapon parts quite often instead of complete weapons in my opinion.

 

Also you said in another post your trader is too far off. Well, basically you are the one who decides how far off your trader is. And if you think the game is too random then making your base near a trader (and finding more traders) is one of the best ways to reduce (not eliminate) randomness.

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I noticed logging in today that "wooden bow parts" are gone, and there is now a combined "crossbow / bow parts". I may still have yet to find a wooden bow, but at least now I've been able to make a wooden bow, and would have in my previous playthrough as I had found no shortage of crossbows.

 

While we may not see eye to eye on this issue, I thank you for considering it, and making a change to alleviate this progression block.

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Considering scrapping T1 wooden bow to make a wooden bow... There's no sense in scrapping a T1 to make a T1. You could scrap 2 or 3 T1 bows to make a new T2 for example, which would have higher damage.

 

Already found a T1 Wooden Bow in my playthrough, which is a bit better than the Primitive Bow. When i get the parts i'll definitely make higher tier of it, but for now (before 2nd HN) it's sufficient.

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I also fell victim to the purchase of the wooden bow perk without checking the recipe. It may help others to make a note on perks that allow crafting of T2 items that non-craftable parts will be needed. For example, archery perk allows crafting wooden bow (note: wooden bow parts necessary to build). In general, I feel the descriptions are very good and this would be a minor improvement.

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Umm t1 items cannot be crafted without lootable items and perks don't have hidden requirements so not sure what you are referring to.

 

What he is referring to, I think, is that when some people read a skill's description in a video game such as "Allows you to craft crappy level item X" some people might assume you pay for the perk and you can craft that crappy item x.

 

It's not expected you need uncraftable items to make the item the perk told you you can make for buying the perk.

 

How big if a deal it is or isn't I'll leave it to you to decide.

 

It comes down to random vs guaranteed. I am guaranteed I can craft a T1 Bow because the materials are harvestable. (Not lootable as you described).

 

Lootable means you only have a chance to find it while looting. I'm guaranteed wood if I harvest a tree.

 

Hope that helps you see the point.

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