Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Lonestarcanuck]

Good job Joel. Made it yourself?

I have nothing against - good effect.

But does this have to boast game developer? Leave this level for modders.

 

With burning Shaft you will need a "Penicillin Mod"

[Lonestarcanuck]

MM/TFP - if you change the height map and reduce it by maybe 50-100 blocks, would that not improve performance?

 

Instead of mining down 30-100 blocks I would mine 10-30 blocks or something like that?

[meganoth]

If you find all the parts to the 4x4 (or any vehicle) in Pass-N-Gas boxes, you can assemble the vehicle at the workbench with no perks/levels required. An oversight perhaps?

 

No, TFP changed this on purpose in one of the 17.x alphas.

[meganoth]

You hinted at a top-level perk where the BM horde couldn't sense you, but that'd be too powerful. So maybe the way to 'stealth' the horde is with a perk that promotes a rhythm to combat. E.g., when you kill a zombie, all zombies lose track of you for 5 or 10 seconds: long enough for you to try to take advantage of your agile/stealthy character's strengths, sneak up and take down another one before the effect wears off. This would be no more 'gamey' than perks you've already added, like getting back stamina after a kill.

 

Excellent idea. As a stealth player I can say this would really be a game changer as a lvl5 perk.

 

But 5 seconds would be definitely too long. I imagine the time should be about long enough to either make another headshot with the magnum/bow or 2 shots with the pistol. A kill streak with headshots would be quite doable but not just trivial.

[Roland]

Oddly enough even without the threats it seems underground is extremely popular with the current player base.

 

We had a discussion on this after Joels post in my Discord and it was pretty much unanimous. If underground is removed in some form, people will quit the game and no longer recommend it. Even modded those same people just wont care, they would refuse to play.

 

Hopefully this is all just talk for a sequel. We need to hope we get to gold with as much intact as possible of the game we fell in love with. Save experimentation for the next game. This one already has established itself as a revolutionary voxel game.

 

Actually this is all just talk for a possible option after the game goes gold. A better discussion would have been to ask everyone on your discord, “If there was an additional game mode where the terrain was static but zombie counts were dramatically increased would you ever play that mode?”

 

Madmole was musing about how much of an obstacle voxel a have been from a dev viewpoint but he never said they would be removing voxel terrain from 7 Days to Die as anything more than an option.

 

I love the voxel terrain and wish TFP could/would invest more into solving the issues and making it even more amazing but even I would also play a static terrain mode as an option every once in awhile.

[meganoth]

... but why not also let us be able to dismantle the items and bring them back to the base. If we want to pimp the base – let us risk our butts at POI’s to the give the base the right look, instead of selling them at vendors. We can pick up our workbench – though it takes 10-15 sec, why not giving up the ability to pick up medicine cabinets, bookcases, different types of sinks, doors and like – and let it take time – eg. 30 sec or more – where we are woundable to attack – Also set the retail price to 0 dukes at vendors.

 

I have good news for you, this is something Madmole mentioned as a possible feature for A19.

[meganoth]

Arma 2 has a zombie mod with... well, 500 is about right.

 

Edit: My bad, Arma 3 (Zombies and demons):

 

Nice counter-example. It should be noted that this probably isn't at 200 FPS(?) and that everything there is static, not just the ground.

 

It also looks as if the zombie animation is very basic and my guess is that is a major contributing factor to how many zombies can be shown. So if MM wants 500 zombies he probably would have to cut stuff that would hurt him more than the underground voxels.

 

 

Here's a guy playing with the mod. At the end here he cranked up the zombie numbers (not sure what the max is) enough to scare most people! IF his computer was strong enough that is LOL.

 

 

Edit: Looks like his computer might have been able to handle about 200 zombies, give or take a few.

 

The jumping zombies and the movement of the soldiers is quite choppy indicating very low FPS (the first video you posted seems much more impressive in that regard). Actually 7D2D might not be THAT far from that performance as someone else here on the forum reported about 100 zombies at 30-40 fps.

 

This. As there currently is no underworld gameplay, it obviously wouldn't be THAT big of a bummer not to be able to pickup dirt blocks with a shovel. It's like spending 3 years engineering a car and over time slowly changing its core feature to flight, and then state that removing the wheels wouldn't be a big deal. Duh ?!

 

I still think one of the best memories I (and my group) have within the game was scaffolding in those worm holes back in A12 or so to reach the ore and the next part of the cave. There's so much unused potential that obviously, right now, making static terrain wouldn't remove a big chunk of the game. Still think the game would be better with a full-on below-ground gameplay rather than static terrain.

I honestly think you could engineer stuff properly enough given time in order to fully separate above ground and below ground; it would probably help with performance a lot, and let's be honest, static terrain won't let you run 500 zombies on 200 fps on a potato rig either, that's just an obvious hyperbole.

 

Agreed. More necessity for scaffolding would be a good move. I also would like sleeper zombie animals in the ground. If they only get spawned in tunnel walls directly behind the player (while making some noise) there wouldn't be much underground destruction and only RipClaw would be really mad at TFP

[Tin]

I'm just looking at this pragmatically.

There is nothing compelling about the underground game and hasn't been for a long long time.

TFP aren't adding in anything to make it compelling (at least they are not hinting at they are atm).

So, Fine! Give me more entities on the screen then.

Let me make cave systems as larger interconnecting prefabs I can insert underground.

Then, I don't need to worry about the system collapsing everything or I am not able to build on top of one because the SI failed, and it keeps making blocks fall and unable to be placed.

Keeping prefabs still able to be destroyed? Cool! Just means prefabs inserted below the terrain can be built to be dug out in areas as prefabs.

[KingSlayerGM]

The lag is not only due to the terrain. A large part of that is AI calculations.

 

Yes, which unfortunately they would have also with the static terrain madmole is proposing..

[beHypE]

I'm just looking at this pragmatically.

There is nothing compelling about the underground game and hasn't been for a long long time.

TFP aren't adding in anything to make it compelling (at least they are not hinting at they are atm).

So, Fine! Give me more entities on the screen then.

Let me make cave systems as larger interconnecting prefabs I can insert underground.

Then, I don't need to worry about the system collapsing everything or I am not able to build on top of one because the SI failed, and it keeps making blocks fall and unable to be placed.

Keeping prefabs still able to be destroyed? Cool! Just means prefabs inserted below the terrain can be built to be dug out in areas as prefabs.

 

The thing is either way there's quite some heavy development involved, and all I'm saying is that I'd rather have them work on underground gameplay than static terrain. You make it sound like option a) involves work while option b) is like flipping a switch, which isn't true.

[madmole]

Glad you didn't, because there are plenty generic zombie shooters..

 

Yeah and still none with fully buildable and destroyable buildings, tower defense and other key features that makes 7 days unique so I stand that it would have been just fine to go with static terrain.

 

Voxel farm looks good, we'll probably evaluate it at some point. I'd say Voxel farm terrain combined with a fallout style of building (larger meshes, no 1 meter grid bs, voxel in voxel) that uses voxels to reduce draw calls would be the best hybrid approach.

[madmole]

O huge problem with this doing this that you are creating a ramp for them. Each body you drop the next steps on them. Next thing you know they are climbing over the fence. Next you are doing is the thriller.

 

Na, just move down a few feet, they follow the meat. Then start a new pile.

[Guppycur]

Ever since I learned of the dynamic helper blocks, that's exactly what I'd hoped they would mean for the game. But you can't use them like that in reality, because they're still individual blocks. If a hallway is blocked off with debris, the level designer's not going to use a block that's sometimes a desk and sometimes a wall, because the latter would be this single out-of-place wall block.

 

To really get dynamic paths out of it, instead of just dynamic decorations, we need a system that does groups of blocks. Nested prefabs, if you will. Either that, or do it the old fashioned way by making copies of a dungeon POI and manually changing the intended path in each variation. EDIT: ...as FA_Q2 pretty much suggests.

 

That's already possible... between multi dim and spawner blocks...

[madmole]

He wants to make repairs more limited/harder, and proposes gutting the item attributes and repair systems, rewriting new ones from scratch, and then doing the same for the inventory UI.

 

He can get started on his mod then if he believes in it so much.

[JaxTeller718]

Actually this is all just talk for a possible option after the game goes gold. A better discussion would have been to ask everyone on your discord, “If there was an additional game mode where the terrain was static but zombie counts were dramatically increased would you ever play that mode?”

 

Madmole was musing about how much of an obstacle voxel a have been from a dev viewpoint but he never said they would be removing voxel terrain from 7 Days to Die as anything more than an option.

 

I love the voxel terrain and wish TFP could/would invest more into solving the issues and making it even more amazing but even I would also play a static terrain mode as an option every once in awhile.

 

That was part of the discussion as well since i had posted what MM had said about it being an option. I wish I can report there was interest but the truth is when it came to the selection of people that were present for it they had no interest in an option or even trying it.

 

Im not against the option. Options are always options but I think MM is seriously misjudging just how popular mining is to the community. Sure some arent interested but I think you'll find that the majority of players enjoy a bit of mining. Minecraft conditioned people to love it, and to be honest not too many games even have it. This one does it the best.

 

As for 500 zombies, i dont think anyone would ever say not to that but the art dept better get busy because if it means 300 Arlenes and 200 Boes count me out for sure.

[Guppycur]

@jax

 

It's because he doesn't do it.

[Zombie_Jam]

As Roland said, MadMole was just saying if things were to be done again...

 

I know for a fact that if this game lost the voxel terrain it would go into my digital bin and never be taken back out.

 

I don't play the game online with others in case any smart arses say I won't be a loss, but the game would be a loss to me, personally.

 

This is a fantastic piece of work, unique in its own way - and the fact you can terraform and have intimate creative adventures with the whole world around you is what gives 7D its incredible charm and appeal.

 

I don't even need more zombies, I just need more zombies 😏

 

What? Yes. That's right. No need to increase the number of zombies so much, not if we had some variation.

 

I was going to make a suggestion to the devs but I'm not so sure it would work out. But, however, I shall put it to the community - maybe some of the seasoned old dogs could inform me better on the viability - so here it is.

 

How about having the game produce random zombies involving presets to randomise the zombie parts and behaviour - I.E - a crawling nurse that spits vomit, or a skinny cop with a broken leg - or even mixed parts, a big momma cop who walks like the skater boy.

 

Not sure how 'heavy' that would be to implement but it would certainly give us some entertaining variety.

 

And if it was too heavy maybe have standard spawns on horde night and mix n match every other day of the week. What do you all think 😁

[madmole]

All I learned was that school is nothing but a talent show and college/university is a massive life-long debt waiting to happen. No thank you.

 

A lot of textbooks are outdated anyway. As an example, I saw part of my sister's school textbook from a couple years back, made in 2017, and it showed an image of a dinosaur that was drawn up back in the 50's.

 

Besides, what's more important to teach kids these days? Money management or Shakespeare? Hmm...

 

Yeah School doesn't prepare you for anything important.

 

Overall there should be money management courses, relationship courses, goal setting and importance of grinding and visualization, more programs to get people into the work force. History? Stupid. Doesn't do anyone any good, least of all teenagers. Yeah people fight and die over stupid stuff, I never learned anything from Rome's mistakes. They should have courses that build confidence and teach you to have a strong hand shake and make eye contact, most these kids are introverted because of phone life.

[Tin]

The thing is either way there's quite some heavy development involved, and all I'm saying is that I'd rather have them work on underground gameplay than static terrain. You make it sound like option a) involves work while option b) is like flipping a switch, which isn't true.

 

Nope, not one bit. I can't help what your want to read into it. Everything will take work either way to implement option A or B and so on..

From what I am reading into: From what MM is saying, it already sounds like they have a PoC of this to a degree already, working or not IDK.

And for it being an Option? I'm all for it.

[madmole]

I think a building system like Rust/Fallout 4 could work (not for 7 days, but just commenting on the topic), if there were loads of different shapes and sizes of building blocks. Combined with the painting mechanic I think some awesome looking bases could be built using it. Voxel is great, but it is very limited by the size of the blocks, meaning floors and walls have to be a meter thick.

 

I also think that the mining could be done without in a new game. The idea of having to find the perfect spot to build around the landscape appeals to me, rather than just being able to build anywhere. It would be cool to come across a perfect spot that has a few craters that could be used within your base design to make traps etc.

Yeah people get married to sharp sticks. People are fine eating ground rat meat until they taste steak. There are advantages to both systems, to us its about fidelity, performance and being able to just do more cool things, like fast vehicles, way more zeds in the world, more player support, better lighting, more of a persistent world. We could abstract a new mining and there would be so many new cool benefits that it really wouldn't matter in the big picture. Imagine putting more than a coffee cup on a table, but a whole set of whatever you wanted, no more one model per meter bs, no more 3 feet thick walls, everything would look way better and be way more immersive.

[Roland]

Oo I know.... combine static terrain mode with PvP mode and just call it The Unpopular Stuff Mode...

 

(Put LBD in there as a honey pot)

[OzHawkeye]

Yeah School doesn't prepare you for anything important.

 

Overall there should be money management courses, relationship courses, goal setting and importance of grinding and visualization, more programs to get people into the work force. History? Stupid. Doesn't do anyone any good, least of all teenagers. Yeah people fight and die over stupid stuff, I never learned anything from Rome's mistakes. They should have courses that build confidence and teach you to have a strong hand shake and make eye contact, most these kids are introverted because of phone life.

 

Oh, I couldn't disagree more with you about the importance of teaching history - now, teaching it without the teachers own bias being an issue, sure, that's nigh on impossible to eliminate, but as the old saying goes, "those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it", is something I see around me (as a keen student of history) today more than ever.

 

I recently had a swastika scratched into my car roof. When I reported it to the police, the 20-something cop on the other side of the counter asked me first "What's a swastika?" and I was gobsmacked. I damn near went full-stage grumpy old man, and nigh on lectured him on the spot then and there.

[RipClaw]

Agreed. More necessity for scaffolding would be a good move. I also would like sleeper zombie animals in the ground. If they only get spawned in tunnel walls directly behind the player (while making some noise) there wouldn't be much underground destruction and only RipClaw would be really mad at TFP

 

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and make fun of me. I hope the next time you go into the mine a horde of zombie bears and dogs will follow you.

[madmole]

OK MM,

Briefly: I propose to add to the game limited number of repairs for items and two types of repairs "Quick repair" and "Overhaul". "Quick repair" is done in the backpack, and "Overhaul" only at the workbench or at the trader.

 

Details below. Thanks.

------------------

 

I liked the weapon repair system in Dying Light, or rather a limited number of repairs. This system could be partially introduced into your game, but with changes.

 

So, I have excellent idea for 7 days To Die =)

1. Add the "number of repairs" parameter to the items.

2. Add two types of repair “simple repair” and “overhaul”.

3. Simple repair - repair weapons with repair kits, repair tools with metal, repair armor with tape. After each simple repair, you need to reduce the "number of repairs" parameter by one.

4. When the value “number of repairs” drops to zero, the item cannot be repaired with a “simple repair”.

5. To restore the value of “number of repairs”, you need to perform “Overhaul”.

6. "Overhaul" must be done on a workbench or at a trader (or other special NPC's).

7. For "Overhaul" will already need more different resources:

- for weapons: repair kit, parts for this weapon, oil, etc.

- for tools: metal, parts of this tool, etc.

- for armor: fabric, threads, adhesive tape, leather, details of the armor and more ...

8. "Overhaul" will be available only after purchasing a certain level perk from the corresponding attribute.

9. And the last one. Some particularly strong legendary items may have a very large “number of repairs” parameter, but we cannot do “Overhauls”, or “legendary details” may be needed for repairs (for balance in the game).

 

Sorry for the text wall.

What do you think of it?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

This belongs in pimp dreams, not picking on you but just stop. A18 questions only unless its some major issue. If you would read more than you type you would know my stance on this already. This is a bunch of clunky ideas that add zero value. Busy work that keeps us from making a great game. Why won't my gun repair? WTF? Oh you need to jump through a special hoop so you can resume normal activities. Its just busy work that isn't interesting. There is so much to do and no time to do it now, this would just aggravate people. I barely have enough time to build traps and grind bullets for the horde now that I am late game. I want to loot but they are coming. We don't need any clunky special repair meta game, we just simplified repair (phase 1 anyway) we're not going to make it over complicated. Repair is not fun, new stuff is fun.

[madmole]

Damn, I feel kind of bad.

 

Didn't mean to mess up your sales =(

 

Its all good, its speculation, and not your fault anyway. KS was great for publicity and things all happen for a reason.