hotpoon Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Hi Fun Pimps Just wanted to give you some recent feedback from 2 people who aren't in the forums who have been trying out A17.1 this week for the first time. Brand New Player A friend, who has just started (completely new player, so not biased by previous alphas), says it seems like a cool game, but is really finding it difficult to make headway because he says he is always starving. He says he keeps selling stuff at the trader and all his money goes to buying food. I told him about collecting eggs and trying to scavenge a pot, and he said he'd do it, but I suspect he's already lost his enthusiasm. Might be an idea to add some sort of cooking into the tutorial so that people know what their options are. Also, if someone dies with less than half their food, maybe bring them back with half food (like in previous Alphas) so that when they respawn, they at least have a fighting chance. People have mentioned it before, and I agree that the current system is quite punitive to those who keep dying over and over. If someone keeps dying, they need a helping hand, not a punch in the face. Veteran My husband, who has 1,648 hours since alpha 13, just started playing A17.1. His first obstacle was that he couldn't figure out why his max stamina and health kept getting lower and lower and wasn't able to raise it. I should mention at this point that he is not a reader. He will not come onto a forum or Google something. It's just not his way. I explained that it was linked to basically micromanaging your food and water levels, and this has really put him off the game. He told me just now that he's tried to get into it every night this week, but finds it off putting that he runs 10 meters out his hut to chop some trees, and gets winded. He said, and I quote "I feels like I'm being punished for dying". So in this case, the issue is that it's not clear just from looking at the hud what exactly is lowering the max stamina and health, and I believe that it needs to be made more obvious. I'm not sure how to make this clear, as...full disclosure...I barely understand the system myself. All I know is that I'm trying to be constantly eating and drinking to avoid my character spazzing out. Anyway, hope that feedback is useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossed Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 It's all in your journal, the entries are updated to explain the a17 changes. Maybe a cooking "quest" during the tutorial wouldn't be bad tho edit: but basically keep you food and water levels between 100 and 150 to avoid any negative effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exxodous Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Maybe they should try A17.1b9 where they have adjusted some of these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpoon Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Maybe they should try A17.1b9 where they have adjusted some of these things? They are both on the latest experimental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebella Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 There are mods that add a few more details to your UI like temperature, food and water - but I think the latest experimental patch added food values. The stamina system is pretty simple, basically food appears to correlate to the total amount of stamina you have, and thirst correlates to how fast that stamina is regenerated. At 100 you are considered "full" and your stamina will be at maximum. You can over-eat/drink up to 150 to give yourself a buffer against the stamina loss. There are perks for hunger/thirst and stamina which make things easier - just one point makes a difference. The system actually works pretty well (when it's properly balanced as each patch brings new changes). Later on in the game food/thirst/stamina is no longer much of an issue. As for your friend starving, most vets have no problem finding food so your friend just needs to become a bit more familiar with the game, then he should be fine. " If someone keeps dying, they need a helping hand, not a punch in the face." As far as I am aware, when you die you get a helping hand in the form of the game stage being lowered (aka made easier). Also, if I kept dying then I would choose the punch in the face as punishment for not getting my act together, but that's just me Having said that, I understand your point about the early starvation death-loop and perhaps it would be better for newbies if they included a starter quest which included something like boiling an egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I simply eat whenever I notice my max stamina has dropped below 100. Is that what you mean by micromanaging? I really don't feel like I'm having to monitor my food intake moment to moment. I usually drink when the orange teardrop appears on the screen and then I drink until I am well above 100. Again, it isn't happening that often and its not really something you are required to monitor other than noticing when the max stamina has dropped. Of course, everyone probably has a different threshold of when they feel micromanagement has kicked in but if it was even less than what it is now it would be mostly an irrelevant condition in my opinion. I guess the question to ask your friend and your husband is..... How often should you need to eat and drink and remain full on stamina and recovery rates? What are their expectations? Once a day in the morning and your bar stays at max until the next day and only drops if you miss that morning meal? Once a week? Turn hunger off completely so there is no management of it at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You all are missing the important point: Namely two relative newbies are having difficulty understanding the system and how it functions. It's not intuitive at all how the new stamina and health systems work - TFP should figure out some way to make it clearer. Once you get that there are three phases to both stamina and health, it becomes a bit easier to understand. Max level (the highest you can get it); current level (how much you have right this moment) and adjusted max level (max level that's been temporarily reduced due to either being wounded or using up your internal food reserves.) Max level is the number all the way to the right (eg 110 for stamina).Current level is the blue/red portion of the bar.Adjusted max level is represented by the bar with part of the right side blacked out. It starts off being equal to max level, and as you get injured/perform activities it decreases.Your current levels can't go past this until you eat (stamina) or use some healing equipment (bandage). Hydration levels dictate how fast you restore stamina, and the food/healing item you consume dictates how fast you heal up. HTH -A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I wouldn't call eating and drinking micromanaging... it's just managing. Micromanaging would be if you needed carbs, proteins, fats, vitamins, and minerals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 We already made the journal button BLINK whenever you open your inventory and there are unread entries. That's about the highest annoyance level we would accept in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I wouldn't call eating and drinking micromanaging... it's just managing. Micromanaging would be if you needed carbs, proteins, fats, vitamins, and minerals. Oh, you looked at SCUM? =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Oh, you looked at SCUM? =P SCUM, ECO, and Green Hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junuxx Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 basically keep you food and water levels between 100 and 150 to avoid any negative effects. *between max and max+50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebella Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You all are missing the important point: Namely two relative newbies are having difficulty understanding the system and how it functions. It's not intuitive at all how the new stamina and health systems work - TFP should figure out some way to make it clearer. Once you get that there are three phases to both stamina and health, it becomes a bit easier to understand. Max level (the highest you can get it); current level (how much you have right this moment) and adjusted max level (max level that's been temporarily reduced due to either being wounded or using up your internal food reserves.) Max level is the number all the way to the right (eg 110 for stamina).Current level is the blue/red portion of the bar.Adjusted max level is represented by the bar with part of the right side blacked out. It starts off being equal to max level, and as you get injured/perform activities it decreases.Your current levels can't go past this until you eat (stamina) or use some healing equipment (bandage). Hydration levels dictate how fast you restore stamina, and the food/healing item you consume dictates how fast you heal up. HTH -A Is it always necessary to lead the player through every game-play mechanic in game? I've been gaming for a long time and there have been plenty of games where I haven't fully understood certain mechanics - this is why things like manuals/wikis and forums exist. A good example of this is Path of Exile which is doing amazingly well despite it's very obtuse skill tree. Sometimes telling the player too much kills the sense of exploration or the joy of figuring things out for yourself. Some players may struggle in the beginning, but you can always help them out with some advice or pointing them in the direction of a good guide. Having said that, I think it would be a good idea to work on the descriptions in the in-game "manual" and perks, but I believe this is all being worked on as a lot of these systems are very new and are changing with each patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Is it always necessary to lead the player through every game-play mechanic in game? It depends on what you want your playerbase to be. I've played Rimworld for several alphas....its a colony builder survival game, and the level of hand holding in the game is VERY low...you're encouraged to try, fail, try again, fail again, etc. as you gradually learn strategies to last longer and longer. It's a fantastic game, but in making the game that way, they're making it clear that its only for players who WANT to figure out the game as they go...who enjoy a significant level of complexity as well as digging through that complexity to find interesting game interactions and strategies. Similarly, there are hundreds of games which hold your hand to such an obnoxious degree (i'm sorry, we will REFUSE to let you progress until you can adequately demonstrate that you understand this mechanic in this brief tutorial cutscene) that they similarly drive away certain types of players who are looking for a more organic, smooth game experience. No matter how you build the game, the tutorial and how much the game holds your hand will encourage a certain type of player to play, and discourage another type....and BOTH of those types will be very vocal about their desires (add/remove this NOW or your game will die! vs. Don't change anything or you'll lose all your players!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTeath Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 If you are unable to understand a mechanic in a game with the in game provided material , look it up online and/or ask for help/clarification. If you are unwilling to do so, look elsewhere for your entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 That's awesome feedback! Nice! Hoping that the starting quest system gets more work put in. * Get Cooking! - Find a cooking pot and let's get that stamina back up! You're looking wiped out man. Some side quests that help directly aim players, old a new, to new content or the less than obvious content would be an awesome addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 We already made the journal button BLINK whenever you open your inventory and there are unread entries. That's about the highest annoyance level we would accept in a game. Have you guys thought about putting in a tool tip over health and stamina? Maybe with a "Hide Tool Tips" option in settings? Seems like it'd be a sure fire way above the journal to resolve this type of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 If you are unable to understand a mechanic in a game with the in game provided material , look it up online and/or ask for help/clarification. If you are unwilling to do so, look elsewhere for your entertainment. perfectly valid, except that the system is new to an old game. People have been playing the game for a while, and have already showed (OP mentions over 1600 hours) that they prefer this game....changing things and having UNDERSTANDING of the new mechanic being the tipping point that drives people away....well...that seems like a situation that could be avoided. Its not like they are experiencing a new mechanic and deciding that they don't like the mechanic...they don't even get to that point. Again, perfectly valid to say "look it up or play something else" IF this were about a mechanic in a new game someone was considering (such as in the case of the brand new player, though i will readily agree that this game is abusively punishing to new players)....but when its a mechanic change and the only documentation is the patch notes or the journal (which also tells you about dozens of things that the player already knows about....I'd imagine most experienced players don't bother reading the journal), there really could be some tooltip help or SLIGHTLY more HUD information given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTeath Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 snip I was directing that towards her ( I'm assuming shes a she , I could be wrong , might be a gay couple , no offense intended) husband , who she says is unwilling to look online for info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The feedback is good. A new player and a veteran player both had problems with figuring out the new hunger/stamina system. The question is what has TFP done in that regard? The answer to both players is in the blinking pencil icon for the journal. I went and read it and it seems pretty clear and it is very accessible and it works hard to get the player's attention. It also appears in plenty of time for the player to start managing their hunger and stamina. I believe that for most players what TFP has done is due diligence. More should be done for those who refuse to or can't read? Who are we to say that the apocalypse won't claim the illiterate first? The next problem that the OP hasn't answered yet is whether the management of keeping fed and maintaining stamina is too demanding? It seems her husband thinks that it is and the new player also seemed to have a hard time maintaining it. Are we needing to eat too often? Is it in the realm of micro-management as the OP described it? I think these are the questions that need feedback and consensus. The "How does it work?" is built into the game and only the most obstinate player is going to refuse to look at it because it involves reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The feedback is good. A new player and a veteran player both had problems with figuring out the new hunger/stamina system. The question is what has TFP done in that regard? The answer to both players is in the blinking pencil icon for the journal. I went and read it and it seems pretty clear and it is very accessible and it works hard to get the player's attention. It also appears in plenty of time for the player to start managing their hunger and stamina. I believe that for most players what TFP has done is due diligence. More should be done for those who refuse to or can't read? Who are we to say that the apocalypse won't claim the illiterate first? The indicator for that isnt really noticeable. (Players vision rarely goes to that corner of the screen) Also you have to stop what you're doing and become vulnerable to attack when you open the menu to read all that. Then you open the window and there isnt much order to whats going on there so it takes time to find the section you need info on. I think it has less to do with illiteracy and more to do with it not being convenient/safe to navigate all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The indicator for that isnt really noticeable. (Players vision rarely goes to that corner of the screen) Also you have to stop what you're doing and become vulnerable to attack when you open the menu to read all that. Then you open the window and there isnt much order to whats going on there so it takes time to find the section you need info on. I think it has less to do with illiteracy and more to do with it not being convenient/safe to navigate all the time Corner? It is one of your main tabs at the top of your user interface that you probably open dozens of times a day and it is the only one blinking. I agree it shouldn't be opened and read when you are in the middle of a zombie fight. But first night in your hiding place? Why not? What is inconvenient about spending some of those first night hours reading up on things that you are confused about? Now that the game starts you out at 150 food you are solid for the first day so that first night is perfect for reading. Also, no need to read everything. Just the topics that you are having a hard time with. In fact, I really suggest reading about mining to about 90% of this forum... I mean why wouldn't you....unless....you are a staunch non-reader that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HungryZombie Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 You all are missing the important point: Namely two relative newbies are having difficulty understanding the system and how it functions. It's not intuitive at all how the new stamina and health systems work - TFP should figure out some way to make it clearer. Once you get that there are three phases to both stamina and health, it becomes a bit easier to understand. Max level (the highest you can get it); current level (how much you have right this moment) and adjusted max level (max level that's been temporarily reduced due to either being wounded or using up your internal food reserves.) Max level is the number all the way to the right (eg 110 for stamina).Current level is the blue/red portion of the bar.Adjusted max level is represented by the bar with part of the right side blacked out. It starts off being equal to max level, and as you get injured/perform activities it decreases.Your current levels can't go past this until you eat (stamina) or use some healing equipment (bandage). Hydration levels dictate how fast you restore stamina, and the food/healing item you consume dictates how fast you heal up. HTH -A If anything I think you've hit on the takeaway from all this. Not so much that anything needs to be easier but it needs to be explained a little better for new players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I believe that for most players what TFP has done is due diligence. More should be done for those who refuse to or can't read? The journal is a good help file. Though, that's really what it is. Most people who use MS Word never went into the help file or hardly read it. I'm the primary software developer for a system with over 2500 users. People we're surveyed on the help content. Which is largely the same as the journal. Over 70% never went into it. Most asked someone for help. Its a matter of making a something that's intuitive. I think it'd be a good idea for TFP to look at some of the earliest streamer videos of A17. Watch when they are confused, happened with I think all of them on Max Stamina and Health management that I watched. Watch where they move their mouse when they're stuck and figuring things out. Listen to what they're saying. "I thought I read in the forums..." I've heard while the streamer didn't even bother to look at the journal. Just my thoughts. But if TFP aimed to put help content in the places a person first looks to find information, you'll have way better usability feedback. The first thing I saw was people hovered over their health and stamina bars. Looking for a tool tip. Sticks out like a sore thumb in many the first A17 videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Tooltip when hovering over the bars is a good idea. Someone else suggested it as well. Maybe if they made the pencil look like a paper clip and it would jump out of the scenery and talk to you with word bubbles while bouncing in the corner.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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