Another stamina thread [A17.1]

[Narima]

I am a new player- started the game on 31.12.2018.

 

I started with my husband - he chopped wood, i searched for water, Deer...

 

He had not really hunger but my char needs more food.

 

The raw eggs nearly dont feed me and cooking was not an option as we had no water and no cooking pot.

 

I starved and died then 3 times and it gets frustrating.

 

When he found a cooking pot and some water i could survive.

 

The first 2 days are very hard- after the 2 days i never had food problems but the start is not easy.

 

-----------

 

Today i started fresh alone - as i want to make hordenight together with my husband.

 

 

Same problem: i found a few eggs and happy: a cooking pot- but i only found 4 water...

 

First i ate chilie, then 2 boiled eggs- found no meat.

 

Go to trader made a quest - got about 400 coins - bought food 3 pieces then money runs out . Had to search water... so i traveled and found nothing... One can of Sham i found i had to eat after my 3 bought pieces was eaten. Found 8 eggs , had to eat them on the way home- and starved in the cold on the way home...

 

The first 2 days are horror: find a little base -clear it first, then make it a little bit safe - put in a door, chop trees and search stones for wood and stone. Then the problem to find water, a cooking pot and something to eat.

I found ammunition - but i cant eat or drink it and dont have the gun to shoot with it...

 

 

I now started a new game - i was set in the desert - after 4 ingame hours i found 1 water in a sink in a house witch only crap inside - no food, no cooking pot/grill, looted every nest- found only 4 eggs but have massive amount of feathers. So i have to search now where i can set a nice base for survive the night... same problem: i will not survive with the 4 eggs i cant cook, the chili and 2 water...

 

 

I think it would be better if you dont random spawn in desert/snow - so you dont have the environmental problems when starting.

 

Next: 5 water, 5 starting food would be really better to survive i you are unlucky the first day with finding water, bottles, cooking pot and food.

 

If you are so weak you cant clear a big house - so even a small house is a challenge and if you are unlucky you get no food, water, cooking pot.

 

in random maps natural water is really a problem sometimes.

 

making fresh water should not be a cooking pot necessary.

 

I started many games - sometimes i was lucky with my spawn - there were nearby little houses i could raid - i foundd cooking pot, found water in the first day and i could cook the eggs. Meat is really problem to find.

 

if you are alone it really depends where you are spawning.

 

Everybody could survive 3 weeks without eating but my char can starve on his first day... On the first day in a game you should get hungry, lowers your staming but you shouldnt can starving to death.

[Maynard69]

Corner?

 

It is one of your main tabs at the top of your user interface that you probably open dozens of times a day and it is the only one blinking. I agree it shouldn't be opened and read when you are in the middle of a zombie fight. But first night in your hiding place? Why not? What is inconvenient about spending some of those first night hours reading up on things that you are confused about? Now that the game starts you out at 150 food you are solid for the first day so that first night is perfect for reading. Also, no need to read everything. Just the topics that you are having a hard time with. In fact, I really suggest reading about mining to about 90% of this forum...

 

I mean why wouldn't you....unless....you are a staunch non-reader that is.

 

Didnt really mean corner but that part of the screen is seldom looked at as there is no need to. I just remember starting out and not noticing the blinking icon until after there was 20+ "tips" to read. Thats all I meant, its not noticeable. Might just be me though. I do agree that once you get to a safe place for the first night would be the only wise time to start leafing through those tips.

[Maynard69]

snip.

 

Your first priority should be getting some food and water while heading to the trader, to do that you need to explore a little. I skip trying to secure a POI or build something. The first thing I am looking for is snow or burnt biomes, or a water source. Burnt biome will give you sinks/ovens to get your cooking pot and jars/cans, snow will automatically give you unlimited water wherever you are as long as you have 8 stones to make the campfire. (just need 1 tin can, dont need cookpot) Check trash bags for jars/cans. Search every birdsnest (its +5 max stamina without even cooking) I could live for weeks just eating raw eggs.

 

As a bonus listen for animals (they always make noise when u get near) if you get a stack of meat going in addition to the other stuff there is no way to starve.

[DrTeath]

snip.

 

You had a cooking pot but couldnt get enough water?

 

1: put glass jars in toolbar

2: find a body of water ( a lake, a pond, etc )

3: hold jars in hand (will also work with empty cans)

4: aim cross hair at water and right click

5: boil water in campfire

 

check cabinets , under sinks, and toilets for empty jars and jars of murky water.

[Aurelius]

Corner?

 

It is one of your main tabs at the top of your user interface that you probably open dozens of times a day and it is the only one blinking. I agree it shouldn't be opened and read when you are in the middle of a zombie fight. But first night in your hiding place? Why not? What is inconvenient about spending some of those first night hours reading up on things that you are confused about? Now that the game starts you out at 150 food you are solid for the first day so that first night is perfect for reading. Also, no need to read everything. Just the topics that you are having a hard time with. In fact, I really suggest reading about mining to about 90% of this forum...

 

I mean why wouldn't you....unless....you are a staunch non-reader that is.

 

Ya know, if I wanted to play a text adventure game I'd go back to Zork - it has more story and is less buggy.

 

Tsk tsk - as a math teacher to tweens with large volumes of hormones percolating through their systems, you of all people should know the proclivity for people to read things...

 

Tooltip when hovering over the bars is a good idea. Someone else suggested it as well.

 

Maybe if they made the pencil look like a paper clip and it would jump out of the scenery and talk to you with word bubbles while bouncing in the corner....

 

I swear, the first time I read this it said "Trolltip"

 

-A

[Guppycur]

2600 hours or so, and I've never, ever, read a journal entry.

 

... it just doesn't interest me. If it's not intuitive, and requires a journal entry, it's already broke.

[ilukaappledash]

Nothing quite like reading feedback from the everyday human being and reading responses from people who have far too much time on their hands.

 

*sarcasm* Wait a sec normie, you havent modded the game repeatedly and read every single journal/forum entry regarding stamina and hunger management? SHAME ON YOU! *sarcasm end*

 

Stamina and hunger management have always played an integral part to the gameplay of 7dtd in the 800 hours of gameplay i have racked up. But they never impeded gameplay.

 

And when the mods start flaming people for not wanting to pause the game and read through journals instead of killing zombies or building deathforts something is wrong.

 

Maybe Roland thinks that the journal entries are on par with the Great Gatsby and that those who wish to indulge themselves in the more organic experience are not worth the time of day, but in the end, once you get to the early stages of the mid game, food and drink are as arbitrary as ever. So why make the less interesting aspects of a very very fun game more tedious to new/early game players?

[hotpoon]

The journal is a good help file. Though, that's really what it is.

 

Most people who use MS Word never went into the help file or hardly read it.

 

I'm the primary software developer for a system with over 2500 users. People we're surveyed on the help content. Which is largely the same as the journal. Over 70% never went into it.

 

Most asked someone for help.

 

 

Its a matter of making a something that's intuitive.

 

 

I think it'd be a good idea for TFP to look at some of the earliest streamer videos of A17. Watch when they are confused, happened with I think all of them on Max Stamina and Health management that I watched.

 

Watch where they move their mouse when they're stuck and figuring things out. Listen to what they're saying. "I thought I read in the forums..." I've heard while the streamer didn't even bother to look at the journal.

 

 

Just my thoughts. But if TFP aimed to put help content in the places a person first looks to find information, you'll have way better usability feedback.

 

The first thing I saw was people hovered over their health and stamina bars. Looking for a tool tip. Sticks out like a sore thumb in many the first A17 videos.

 

I so agree with the above. Watching early streaming videos is a great idea to see where more explanation is needed, and where people automatically look for that information.

 

I, unlike my husband, am not stubborn about reading help files, but I honestly never noticed the pen.

 

I also find that when you click on a skill that isn't unlockable, I expect to see the reason why it isn't unlockable in the description, not by hovering over the lock. I'm not sure if I'm alone in this regard, but watching streamers, especially brand new players is good user testing to find out this and more.

 

I simply eat whenever I notice my max stamina has dropped below 100. Is that what you mean by micromanaging?

 

Hmm, let me try and explain what I mean.

In earlier alphas, if we heard our characters tummy rumble, etc, we knew we were getting dangerously low on food, but now I'm getting orange icons on my screen telling me the character is starving even when the food bar (Red's Hud mod) is above 50%. Sometimes even around 80%. I don't know why my character seems to need to constantly have a full belly in order to be able to be at peak stamina. In my mind, this is micromanaging.

 

Thing is, I love this game enough to overlook things like that and keep playing. Other people like my friend and husband don't have the patience for that. For example, I know my husband's intent is to go mining because that's what he loves, but if he can't even chop a tree down without taking a break and wheezing heavily, he's not sticking around for the rest of the game. It's not because he's lazy or wants to be superman at the start. The amount of tedious mining he's done in previous alphas shows he loves grinding, but then he also knew that the more he did it, the better he would get at it (learn by doing) so didn't seem like a grind. I'm veering off though. The point is it seems from these 2 cases at least, that when you are on a downward spiral of dying in this game, it's hard to get back to normal. That is why I suggest respawning the character with half their food like previous Alphas did. I imagine that will make it easier for players who keep dying repeatedly.

[Ghostlight]

Corner?....It is one of your main tabs at the top of your user interface that you probably open dozens of times a day and it is the only one blinking..

 

Well I have 2000 hours in this game and this thread is the first I've heard of a journal tab, never mind one that blinks....will have to go check it out when I get home from work, as I have seriously never noticed it. Is it new to A17?

[Roland]

I believe it was new in A13.

[Hellsmoke]

This hunger thing is a big issue for many I think, it's been bothering me since alpha 11 I think where the annoying character sounds got added. That was my first time having to mod the game to remove the constant moaning sounds because it was sooo annoying.

 

We still have to eat too much. Food should be much more rare and give you much more fullness when eaten. Everyone talks about "reality" well in reality you can go up to three weeks without eating before your body starts shutting down. Now I know this isn't good for game design but the current system sucks because it's just an annoyance. I do want it to be something I have to spend time on but I'd like it to be fun.

 

Nobody should be starving on day one or two or three for that matter. Starvation should slowly get worse over the week and the price should be paid on horde night. You shouldn't be able to just eat on horde night to fix it either, you should need a few days to recover (eating good) after starving yourself for a week. Food should be hard to find so that we have to tend to a farm late game to secure a good steady food source.

 

Animals should be hard to kill and require stealth to get close enough to get a kill. Once you get that kill however you should have meat for a week, maybe have to smoke it to preserve it.

 

I could go on and on. I know that many devs think "most players don't know what's good for them" and I agree to a point, but this just hasn't been "fun" for me the way it was implemented.

 

I love farming but I don't feel the need to. All I'm doing is finding loads of food and constantly having to stuff my throat to keep my player quiet and maintain my basic character movement while wasting precious inventory space to keep loads of food and drink on me because my character can't go 5 min without having to eat.

 

I've been playing for quite some time and this hunger/stamina mechanic puts me off after a while of playing new releases.

 

If the food thing were reworked I think it would make the whole game much more fun and I'd even suggest food spoilage to go along with it but food spoilage in the current game would just be a lazy way out and more annoyance.

 

This is not really a stamina issue but now that stamina is tied to hunger it is related.

 

Never read a single journal entry btw but watching Kage got me to start playing so I knew the game and didn't need it much.

 

I wouldn't mind a18 being all about food, I think it would really add a lot of fun to the game.

[Roland]

.

 

Maybe Roland thinks that the journal entries are on par with the Great Gatsby and that those who wish to indulge themselves in the more organic experience are not worth the time of day, but in the end, once you get to the early stages of the mid game, food and drink are as arbitrary as ever. So why make the less interesting aspects of a very very fun game more tedious to new/early game players?

 

From one guy who enjoys sarcasm to another it’s a little much to say that reading one journal entry at night while safe in your base is the same as playing a text adventure or reading a novel. I mean assuming the wife is somewhere in the house one could simply call out and say, “Hey hon, could you come read this to me?!”

 

I said that a tooltip to explain it while hovering the mouse over the bars was a good idea as well but...dang it....that involves reading too. Let’s see....would a tooltip message appear as a short story or a novella to you?

 

As for the early game I hope we aren’t talking about A17.1b9 because seriously the only way I can see you having stamina issues is if you are trying to use the power swing exclusively or something. You asked why make the first few days tedious but they softened that by quite a bit as requested

[Roland]

This hunger thing is a big issue for many I think, it's been bothering me since alpha 11 I think where the annoying character sounds got added. That was my first time having to mod the game to remove the constant moaning sounds because it was sooo annoying.

 

We still have to eat too much. Food should be much more rare and give you much more fullness when eaten. Everyone talks about "reality" well in reality you can go up to three weeks without eating before your body starts shutting down. Now I know this isn't good for game design but the current system sucks because it's just an annoyance. I do want it to be something I have to spend time on but I'd like it to be fun.

 

Nobody should be starving on day one or two or three for that matter. Starvation should slowly get worse over the week and the price should be paid on horde night. You shouldn't be able to just eat on horde night to fix it either, you should need a few days to recover (eating good) after starving yourself for a week. Food should be hard to find so that we have to tend to a farm late game to secure a good steady food source.

 

Animals should be hard to kill and require stealth to get close enough to get a kill. Once you get that kill however you should have meat for a week, maybe have to smoke it to preserve it.

 

I could go on and on. I know that many devs think "most players don't know what's good for them" and I agree to a point, but this just hasn't been "fun" for me the way it was implemented.

 

I love farming but I don't feel the need to. All I'm doing is finding loads of food and constantly having to stuff my throat to keep my player quiet and maintain my basic character movement while wasting precious inventory space to keep loads of food and drink on me because my character can't go 5 min without having to eat.

 

I've been playing for quite some time and this hunger/stamina mechanic puts me off after a while of playing new releases.

 

If the food thing were reworked I think it would make the whole game much more fun and I'd even suggest food spoilage to go along with it but food spoilage in the current game would just be a lazy way out and more annoyance.

 

This is not really a stamina issue but now that stamina is tied to hunger it is related.

 

Never read a single journal entry btw but watching Kage got me to start playing so I knew the game and didn't need it much.

 

I wouldn't mind a18 being all about food, I think it would really add a lot of fun to the game.

 

There is a perk for slowing down your metabolism so that the need to eat is much less and this perk can be purchased with one of your starting points.

 

There is another thread going on right now where people are asking the devs to make it so your fullness drains away even when you are passively standing around in addition to the depletion you get by taking actions. They want us to have to eat more often than we do now.

 

My point is that different people have fun in different ways and what has bothered you since A11 hasn’t even been on my radar at all and then there are others who are the polar opposite of you and changing the game to where you only need to eat once a day or every two days is going to make them feel how you do right now.

 

At least the solution to what you want is built into the perk system. You just have to select it and you’ll have what you want.

[Hellsmoke]

At least the solution to what you want is built into the perk system. You just have to select it and you’ll have what you want.

 

Nowhere near it lol, this may reduce the annoyance but it still doesn't make me farm, gives me a huge stockpile of food completely rendering the "survival" aspect of the game useless.

 

As for draining stamina while not doing anything..this would get modded out assp.

[Roland]

Hmm, let me try and explain what I mean.

In earlier alphas, if we heard our characters tummy rumble, etc, we knew we were getting dangerously low on food, but now I'm getting orange icons on my screen telling me the character is starving even when the food bar (Red's Hud mod) is above 50%. Sometimes even around 80%. I don't know why my character seems to need to constantly have a full belly in order to be able to be at peak stamina. In my mind, this is micromanaging.

 

First of all orange doesn’t mean starving. Orange is a warning that you should handle it soon. After orange it turns red and then after that blinking red. Blinking red is starving.

 

Like the other poster said, to me micromanagement would be if we had to count calory intake from carbs, proteins, etc. in this system when the orange icon appears to tell me my hunger is at a point that my max stamina will be affected I simply eat until I’m back to max. Now that the max is 50 above the max stamina it is happening even less often than ever before.

 

But I know everyone has a different threshold for what feels like too much.

[hotpoon]

First of all orange doesn’t mean starving. Orange is a warning that you should handle it soon. After orange it turns red and then after that blinking red. Blinking red is starving.

 

I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?

[Hellsmoke]

I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?

 

Nailed it!

[Roland]

As for draining stamina while not doing anything..this would get modded out assp.

 

Exactly. Which is why extremes on either side of default are best left to modding.

[Roland]

I've never noticed a variance in colour of the icon, but then I'm not the most observant person. Regardless, I think the better question is, why would I need to think about eating soon if my food bar is 80% full, or even 50% full? I assume it is because the max stamina starts taking damage as soon as I'm not full, and of course that begs the next question: why does the max stamina need to take damage when you are not actually starving? Why not make the max stamina only start decreasing when the characters food is critically low?

 

You’ve never noticed the other colors because you are getting plenty of early warning. The game used to not give blatant warnings until the player was at 25% fullness and then the danger icon wouldn’t hit until 0%. People complained saying that the warnings were too close to when death would occur. TFP listened and now you are complaining that the warning is way to soon?

 

As for how hunger affects max stamina and when is the best time for it to start making it go down is definitely a topic up for debate. There are going to be lots of opinions on the matter. You and Hellsmoke would like max stamina to almost never go down. Others feel it doesn’t have enough impact in the game. I personally think it’s fine where it’s at and wouldn’t want it to slide any more in your direction than 17.1 took it.

 

I think it is close to the middle of the two extremes that we see people asking for on the forums so where does it leave those who want extreme options? Modding.

[hotpoon]

You’ve never noticed the other colors because you are getting plenty of early warning. The game used to not give blatant warnings until the player was at 25% fullness and then the danger icon wouldn’t hit until 0%. People complained saying that the warnings were too close to when death would occur. TFP listened and now you are complaining that the warning is way to soon?

If some people did feel like they were not warned in ample time, I imagine it may be because they had no idea where their food level was, so the starving came as a surprise. I can understand that, and this is the reason I personally use Red's hud mod. I want to be able to glance over and see where my food level is at any time.

 

As for how hunger affects max stamina and when is the best time for it to start making it go down is definitely a topic up for debate.

I'm glad it's up for debate.

 

There are going to be lots of opinions on the matter. You and Hellsmoke would like max stamina to almost never go down. Others feel it doesn’t have enough impact in the game. I personally think it’s fine where it’s at and wouldn’t want it to slide any more in your direction than 17.1 took it.

Who are these weirdos? lol

[Roland]

Welcome to the freak show

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?106330-If-you-don-t-get-hungry-you-ll-never-starve!

[Greymantle]

The mechanic is poorly done. It goes against the norm in games like this that use 1-100%, not 1-150%.

[hotpoon]

Welcome to the freak show

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?106330-If-you-don-t-get-hungry-you-ll-never-starve!

 

Oh that thread? I guess you missed my comment on there. I don't feel that it's related to what I'm suggesting to be honest.

 

That thread is saying if you stand still in one spot, your food should slowly drain. I always assumed it did that already. Now knowing that it doesn't, I wouldn't mind if it did - so long as it drained really slowly.

 

What I'm suggesting is that your max stamina shouldn't get affected by your hunger until your food level is critical. At the moment, your max stamina is almost immediately affected as soon as you aren't full. If there are people who want your max stamina affected even sooner, then..well I don't know that it can be affected sooner. At this point we are already at the extreme end, are we not?

 

I could be wrong because I haven't read a fraction of the complaints that you've been subjected to, but I don't see anyone complaining about normal stamina - it is the max stamina so severely linked to food that is the biggest gripe...at least in my mind and the few threads I've read.

 

Also just want to take this opportunity to compliment you and the other Fun Pimps staff for being so hands on with the forums. It's really refreshing to see devs actually interested in feedback now days.

[AGar]

Nothing quite like reading feedback from the everyday human being and reading responses from people who have far too much time on their hands.

 

*sarcasm* Wait a sec normie, you havent modded the game repeatedly and read every single journal/forum entry regarding stamina and hunger management? SHAME ON YOU! *sarcasm end*

 

Stamina and hunger management have always played an integral part to the gameplay of 7dtd in the 800 hours of gameplay i have racked up. But they never impeded gameplay.

 

And when the mods start flaming people for not wanting to pause the game and read through journals instead of killing zombies or building deathforts something is wrong.

 

Maybe Roland thinks that the journal entries are on par with the Great Gatsby and that those who wish to indulge themselves in the more organic experience are not worth the time of day, but in the end, once you get to the early stages of the mid game, food and drink are as arbitrary as ever. So why make the less interesting aspects of a very very fun game more tedious to new/early game players?

 

 

Exactly this, i've spent maybe 50 hours playing and every time i have a question i come to the forum and look it up. However i always see the mods being complete d's to everyone who is a newbie asking question. " Why don't you read this, idiot." basically. Sure stickys are there and hand holding shouldn't be necessary, but the point is to help people out. Not completely turn them away from the game.

[Cirion]

hotpoon makes a great point that I think hasn't been quite addressed which correct me if wrong is this:

 

80% isn't "starving" but it may as well be because at that point you've already lost 20% stamina, which is hugely significant early game where stamina is already at a premium. Intuitively I don't think stamina should drop until truly "Hungry". So maybe starting somewhere in the 25-50% range. There's already a tutorial that includes making a campfire, why not take the 5 minutes to add one more step to the tutorial which tells you why cooking is so important?

 

That said, I haven't personally played with the changes where you can over eat to 150% which should help significantly though, but still, it basically means you should never drop below 100% ever. Eating to constantly full, in fact not even just full but stuffed (150%) you'll manage to be the first obese/diabetic person in the zombie apocalypse...

 

PS - as an aside, in real life in some ways hunger induces a stamina RISE not decrease. Anyone who has done intermittent fasting with just 1 or 2 meals a day knows what i'm talking about here. Cortisol/adrenaline kicks in and gives you MORE energy when you're hungry.

 

All this said, the changes only bothered me too much until I understood it. I played with a friend and we dropped to like 40 max stamina before we understand why because at first it simply was not intuitive.