Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[OzHawkeye]

So yeah... like this... just half a year earlier, when I told them this was going to be a bust. But back then (and because I go overboard a little in my rants, also today)

 

And this is a mistake so many people make. Leaving aside whether you did call out an issue early or not, whether you were right or not, or indeed whether you were rude/disrespectful/whatever or not, leaving all that aside, and not making any judgement on it, one way or the other, the really successful feedback is given calmly and respectfully.

 

The Pimps are human just like the rest of us, and if someone comes at them, all fired up and narky, then even if they actually had a good point, it's going to get missed, because, being human, it's the tone of the message that'll get the attention, not the content.

 

I know how hard it can be to be calm sometimes when you see something you care about (and if we didn't give a crap about this game, none of us would be here), going in a direction you think is wrong, but ranting definitely runs the risk of almost always being ignored, if even if the ranting had a good underlying point.

 

I don't quote your post to single you out either, this is a mistake I suspect every single one of us has made from time to time, and I freely admit to having made it myself once, when Alpha 13 had some issues driving me nuts, but I see this on so many game forums, where someone who might have had a valid point, got dismissed because they made it so angrily.

 

And I give the Pimps big props, after the huge delay in releasing A17, they were (again, being human), no doubt really invested in it, and that would have made any negative feedback even harder to hear, and tougher to acknowledge. That Madmole has posted saying that in retrospect some elements of A17 weren't as good as he'd hoped for, is, I think, a really good omen for the future, and a great indicator for why the Pimps have been so incredibly successful with this game to date.

[Viktoriusiii]

And this is a mistake so many people make. Leaving aside whether you did call out an issue early or not, whether you were right or not, or indeed whether you were rude/disrespectful/whatever or not, leaving all that aside, and not making any judgement on it, one way or the other, the really successful feedback is given calmly and respectfully.

True. But I think that in experimental, I was pretty nice about it. I gave feedback, told them to remove levelgates (which they then doubled down on and increased them) and told them why farming zombies is not fun... and only after they had done nothing in favour of my suggestions and released a broken 17.0 because it was christmas sale+humble bundle day, I started to get really pissed off.

 

It was the utter dismissal, even the ridicule and "anti-" mentallity that made me so... mad.

 

 

So yeah. I will not say what they did was good or that I "forgive", but if they honestly see the flaws of A17, I am hopeful that A18 can get my trust back... at least in part. Can't be worse than A17

[Roland]

Actually no. This is absolutely not what I had in mind. (and please don't jump to conclusions and get passive agressive over nothing) I know it sounds weird, but for the longest time, I didnt even use them upside down, as I liked the aestetic of the normally rotated spikes.

I was arguing for the normal log spikes, which work pretty much the same as the 180° rotated ones, just that zombies jump up and down and looting was a bit harder.

But zombies would still not attach them, if they were a ground block.

 

So yeah. They WERE permanent, even if they were destructable. I also placed them on walls, just because I could, but more on houses I didnt intend to keep

 

Please Roland You should know me better. I don't abuse bugs, don't exploit ai and so on. I like realism (maybe a bit too much) and I was always someone against avoiding hordenight and so on. Why do you suddenly think that I want the spikes only to abuse them?

 

If the log spikes stopped getting damaged then it was a bug. They used to get damaged and downgrade like all upgradeable blocks did when they were damaged. That is the reason I assumed you were placing them upside down. Right side up I have many memories of repairing, replacing, and re-upgrading wood log spikes. But I didn't play the vastly inferior A16 version very much so perhaps they were bugged for that year and a half.

 

I can guarantee you that there is not a single block or trap in the game that is intended to be indestructible or permanent. That idea really does go against the core nature of the game. If Log Spikes became permanent at some point then it was a bug and using them to surround your base as indestructible defenses would also qualify as using an exploit in my opinion.

[Viktoriusiii]

Well... no dirt is also not indestructible, but as long as its level and zombies have no reason to dig down, they won't destroy it.

 

Same with the wood log spikes. As long as they were level with the rest, zombies had no reason to attack them, if you were above/in front of them.

 

What I meant with "permanent" block is this:

Current wood/iron spikes as well as the bladetraps get damaged simply by damaging zombies. So as soon as they damage zombies, they get damaged as well.

Log spikes were not like this and rather like electric fences (which seem to get damaged somehow as well as I noticed). They would damage the zombies, but not receive damage by doing so.

 

Obviously if they were in the way, zombies would hit them and break them. Duh.

 

 

I hope you get now what I meant by "permanent". Once you placed them down on the ground and gave zombies no reason to hit them, they were "permanent".

[SylenThunder]

Log spikes did take damage from zeds. It just wasn't anywhere near the rate that the other spikes were.

Also, they could be rotated upside down to make a flat surface, and still dealt damage. This is most likely why they were removed.

[Viktoriusiii]

Log spikes did take damage from zeds. It just wasn't anywhere near the rate that the other spikes were.

Also, they could be rotated upside down to make a flat surface, and still dealt damage. This is most likely why they were removed.

 

Im 99.9% sure that they didn't get passive damage. Obviously if a zed hit them they did... but not because a zed stood on it.

 

And yeah... because there is absolutely no way you can disable advanced rotation

[Khulkhuum]

And i am 99.9% sure they did get passive damage when anyone walked over them.

 

My A16 bases were dominated by platforms on top of tall columns with iron frames or iron bars as walkways (being able to shoot through them). The ground was always covered with iron log spikes (because wooden log spikes were too weak and could upgrade them easily). The border of this log spike field was always covered with wooden spikes. After each HN i had three jobs to make:

1. Clean out the corpses as fast as i can.

2. Bring back the loot into the base.

3. Repair everything and put up any log spikes or wooden spikes that were missing.

 

The direction from which the Zs came always contributed on the side which got the biggest impact, yet there always were a few log spikes that had very little damage (always somewhere in the middle) where some Zs ran to, but had so low HP they quickly died. They couldn't hit below, so surely they didn't attack the log spikes and i always tried to make all of the log spikes stand on even ground to be sure Zs would simply run over them and not attack them.

[RipClaw]

Im 99.9% sure that they didn't get passive damage. Obviously if a zed hit them they did... but not because a zed stood on it.

 

And yeah... because there is absolutely no way you can disable advanced rotation

 

I have to disagree with you. If you stand on a logspike then this takes damage. I noticed that in A16 when I repaired the spikes around my base and then accidentally stepped on them.

 

I also disagree with Roland's statement that it didn't make sense to have two types of spikes in the game that practically are identical. The logspikes caused little damage to the zombie but were durable. The wooden spikes caused a lot of damage but had a low durability.

It's paradox when on the one hand is argued that you don't want to have two types of traps in the game that work similarly but at the same time there are 8 different types of firearms in the game that all work similarly. And in A18 even more firearms will be added.

[Viktoriusiii]

Well... i guess I have remembered wrong... was that introduced in some later alpha? Because I was absolutely certain that this was not always the case...

Well i guess sorry Roland. This one is on me. I just never ever noticed my log spikes breaking, if they were level. Even after 60 days they were still iron.

 

 

So quick off topic question: How much damage did they get? Because I can't remember seeing any of them break. Was it like 1 damage per damage dealt? Because since they had like 1200hp (2x200+2x400 if I remember correctly) that would more or less be permanent... or was it a lot more and I am just an idiot and never really noticed it? And when was this introduced?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Log spikes did take damage from zeds. It just wasn't anywhere near the rate that the other spikes were.

Also, they could be rotated upside down to make a flat surface, and still dealt damage. This is most likely why they were removed.

That wasn’t the reason. If that was the reason they would just stop the possibility of turning them upside down...like the current spikes. One reason they were removed I know for certain is that they made no logical sense. Another reason is they were butt ugly.

[meganoth]

So quick off topic question: How much damage did they get?

 

I think I checked the XML a long time ago and it was 5 HP to the log spike and (?)20 HP damage to the zombie. Contrary to that the normal spike was more like equal damage to spike and zombie, which I felt was a little strange and the reason I remembered it. But to be sure, look into the xml of A16, my memory is not that reliable.

 

If they had kept the log spikes I'm sure they would have nerfed them eventually since they were just too good, even without the rotation.

[Roland]

I have to disagree with you. If you stand on a logspike then this takes damage. I noticed that in A16 when I repaired the spikes around my base and then accidentally stepped on them.

 

I also disagree with Roland's statement that it didn't make sense to have two types of spikes in the game that practically are identical. The logspikes caused little damage to the zombie but were durable. The wooden spikes caused a lot of damage but had a low durability.

It's paradox when on the one hand is argued that you don't want to have two types of traps in the game that work similarly but at the same time there are 8 different types of firearms in the game that all work similarly. And in A18 even more firearms will be added.

 

I liked log spikes as much as anyone and miss them as much as anyone. I’m not arguing for their removal. I’m simply sharing the reasoning.

 

Back in A15 I suggested having log spikes only multiply fall damage and not cause damage by walking on them so they would be useful as the landing surface for pits. I reasoned that would give the two spike traps different purposes but my idea was ultimately rejected.

[SylenThunder]

I liked log spikes as much as anyone and miss them as much as anyone. I’m not arguing for their removal. I’m simply sharing the reasoning.

 

Back in A15 I suggested having log spikes only multiply fall damage and not cause damage by walking on them so they would be useful as the landing surface for pits. I reasoned that would give the two spike traps different purposes but my idea was ultimately rejected.

That's too bad. Your idea makes perfect sense. I'll have to see if I can mod that later.

[AtomicUs5000]

The log spikes also dismembered legs... a lot.

I think if they made them like a pad of small steel spikes that zombies cannot see and can only be rotated for floors, it would be great.

I say steel because you need to justify the dismemberment, the lower damage they take, and not to mention it is pretty op to use, so should be expensive, mid to late game.

[Khulkhuum]

Leaving the cone in and making it an actual block (for building purposes) is one thing that could be easily done (or modded in). Another is making a new object that would work similarly (or introduce falling damage multiplier), which would also look different. Something like a wooden plate with spikes or a metal plate with nails (maybe not 2-3cm, but let's say about 10-20cm long) would suffice.

 

The model could look like there are something like 9 nails (don't have to be 25 or something) protruding from underneath, so you technically can walk through it, but randomly falling on it would inflict damage (you simply cannot know how you land on something, so it's more realistic this way).

[TheZebra]

Steps in the wrong direction

 

My friends and I have enjoyed this game for more than a few years, and always find ourselves coming back for another playthrough when a new patch or two has dropped. It was always fun to see what had changed, and progress left me excited for the game’s future.

 

Well... Alpha 17 is the first time I’ve ever returned to this game and had significantly less fun, wishing things would go back to the way they were. Here are some of the changes, big or small, that I personally really wish hadn’t happened.

 

1. Zombies cannot be looted anymore. A slim chance to drop a loot bag filled with random contents just doesn’t compare to the dynamic system that existed in prior patches. Need meds? Try hunting some nurses. Hungry? A fat guy might be carrying a can of soup or two. In this iteration, zombies are reduced to nothing more than walking XP. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

2. Hunger and thirst were removed from the in-game HUD. This information is still available, but only when viewing your character summary through your inventory. I genuinely don’t understand the thought process behind hiding such an essential metric for an omnipresent mechanic in menus when it was perfectly fine sitting above the health bar.

 

3. The leveling system completely ditched specialized experience in favor of general experience. This reduces progression to a straight up mindless grind. Before, you had to use weapons and tools to become proficient with them, practice skills to perform them more efficiently, and organically perk out your character based on the way YOU played the game. Now? Eh, you can just do whatever. Chop a tree, smack a rock, drop a couple skill points, and boom, you’re magically better at shooting a bow and arrow. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

4. The death of literature and schematics. Earlier versions of the game featured certain rare books and magazines that were essential to progressing. If you wanted to learn how to craft something, you’d need to read a schematic to learn it. This incentivized exploration and looting in a big way since only rudimentary tools were available to your primitive caveman arse until you went out and edumucated yourself. Now, once again, progression has been reduced to a mindless grind thanks to the new perk system. Chop a few trees, bash a few skulls, do literally anything and guess what - now you can make forged iron! Bash a few more skulls - now you can make tools from steel! Less looting, more grinding, less fun.

 

Also, it makes absolutely no sense that a schematic should be a consumable crafting item. After crafting one piece of armor, suddenly both the direction sheet and the knowledge of how to craft such an item poof into the void. Not only is this downright silly and unrealistic, it’s tedious.

 

5. Item quality and gun parts have been super-simplified. Previous game versions featured qualities ranging from 1 all the way to 600. This has since been condensed to 1-6. Combine this with the removal of gun assembly, and looting has once again been heavily deemphasized. Now, rather than slowly acquiring better and better gun parts and upgrading your hard earned weapon as you go, you will most likely be drowning in fully assembled weapons from day 1. Before the first blood moon, my friends and I had already gathered 3 max quality firearms.

 

————

 

Basically... this game isn’t fun anymore because levels are literally all that matter, and gaining levels is a total grind. I used to love this game, and this latest playthrough has made me genuinely sad and left me astonished at many of the changes.

 

Thoughts?

[RipClaw]

Basically... this game isn’t fun anymore because levels are literally all that matter, and gaining levels is a total grind. I used to love this game, and this latest playthrough has made me genuinely sad and left me astonished at many of the changes.

 

Thoughts?

 

A18 is only a few weeks away. Some of the things you mentioned are different with A18 and so far it looks promising.

[Jeraal]

My friends and I have enjoyed this game for more than a few years, and always find ourselves coming back for another playthrough when a new patch or two has dropped. It was always fun to see what had changed, and progress left me excited for the game’s future.

 

Well... Alpha 17 is the first time I’ve ever returned to this game and had significantly less fun, wishing things would go back to the way they were. Here are some of the changes, big or small, that I personally really wish hadn’t happened.

 

1. Zombies cannot be looted anymore. A slim chance to drop a loot bag filled with random contents just doesn’t compare to the dynamic system that existed in prior patches. Need meds? Try hunting some nurses. Hungry? A fat guy might be carrying a can of soup or two. In this iteration, zombies are reduced to nothing more than walking XP. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

2. Hunger and thirst were removed from the in-game HUD. This information is still available, but only when viewing your character summary through your inventory. I genuinely don’t understand the thought process behind hiding such an essential metric for an omnipresent mechanic in menus when it was perfectly fine sitting above the health bar.

 

3. The leveling system completely ditched specialized experience in favor of general experience. This reduces progression to a straight up mindless grind. Before, you had to use weapons and tools to become proficient with them, practice skills to perform them more efficiently, and organically perk out your character based on the way YOU played the game. Now? Eh, you can just do whatever. Chop a tree, smack a rock, drop a couple skill points, and boom, you’re magically better at shooting a bow and arrow. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

4. The death of literature and schematics. Earlier versions of the game featured certain rare books and magazines that were essential to progressing. If you wanted to learn how to craft something, you’d need to read a schematic to learn it. This incentivized exploration and looting in a big way since only rudimentary tools were available to your primitive caveman arse until you went out and edumucated yourself. Now, once again, progression has been reduced to a mindless grind thanks to the new perk system. Chop a few trees, bash a few skulls, do literally anything and guess what - now you can make forged iron! Bash a few more skulls - now you can make tools from steel! Less looting, more grinding, less fun.

 

Also, it makes absolutely no sense that a schematic should be a consumable crafting item. After crafting one piece of armor, suddenly both the direction sheet and the knowledge of how to craft such an item poof into the void. Not only is this downright silly and unrealistic, it’s tedious.

 

5. Item quality and gun parts have been super-simplified. Previous game versions featured qualities ranging from 1 all the way to 600. This has since been condensed to 1-6. Combine this with the removal of gun assembly, and looting has once again been heavily deemphasized. Now, rather than slowly acquiring better and better gun parts and upgrading your hard earned weapon as you go, you will most likely be drowning in fully assembled weapons from day 1. Before the first blood moon, my friends and I had already gathered 3 max quality firearms.

 

————

 

Basically... this game isn’t fun anymore because levels are literally all that matter, and gaining levels is a total grind. I used to love this game, and this latest playthrough has made me genuinely sad and left me astonished at many of the changes.

 

Thoughts?

 

Beautiful summary.

[hotpoon]

...

2. Hunger and thirst were removed from the in-game HUD. This information is still available, but only when viewing your character summary through your inventory. I genuinely don’t understand the thought process behind hiding such an essential metric for an omnipresent mechanic in menus when it was perfectly fine sitting above the health bar.

...

I agree with everything you've said (and have even more gripes), though to be fair, the hunger and thirst indicators were removed from the hud long before A17 rolled around. I've been using Red Eagles hud mod to add them back in for the past few alphas.

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]

 

great summary of A17.

Be happy you never got to experience 17.0 & 17.1 all your points were amplified to insanity.

 

Though A18 does really look better. The core problems of levels and perkpoints leading to grinding still persists, but the perks do look more fun, exploration should be more rewarding again, more content overall...

 

and maybe if they keep working for 1-2 alphas the game will be greater than A16 again, even with all the new changes.

Just keep up your hope. They do seem to have learned from the misery that was A17 (although not enough in my opinion) and are trying to fix a lot without reverting stuff to A16.

So yeah... lets hope for a great A18 and that they will bring back fun instead of... well... whatever A17 was

 

 

Also sorry your post got merged with this halfdead necromegathread... but TFPs move all criticism into feedback (not the praise tho ) so dont feel bad. Nothing against you personally.

[eXSe]

My friends and I have enjoyed this game for more than a few years, and always find ourselves coming back for another playthrough when a new patch or two has dropped. It was always fun to see what had changed, and progress left me excited for the game’s future.

 

Well... Alpha 17 is the first time I’ve ever returned to this game and had significantly less fun, wishing things would go back to the way they were. Here are some of the changes, big or small, that I personally really wish hadn’t happened.

 

1. Zombies cannot be looted anymore. A slim chance to drop a loot bag filled with random contents just doesn’t compare to the dynamic system that existed in prior patches. Need meds? Try hunting some nurses. Hungry? A fat guy might be carrying a can of soup or two. In this iteration, zombies are reduced to nothing more than walking XP. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

2. Hunger and thirst were removed from the in-game HUD. This information is still available, but only when viewing your character summary through your inventory. I genuinely don’t understand the thought process behind hiding such an essential metric for an omnipresent mechanic in menus when it was perfectly fine sitting above the health bar.

 

3. The leveling system completely ditched specialized experience in favor of general experience. This reduces progression to a straight up mindless grind. Before, you had to use weapons and tools to become proficient with them, practice skills to perform them more efficiently, and organically perk out your character based on the way YOU played the game. Now? Eh, you can just do whatever. Chop a tree, smack a rock, drop a couple skill points, and boom, you’re magically better at shooting a bow and arrow. Less dynamic, less fun.

 

4. The death of literature and schematics. Earlier versions of the game featured certain rare books and magazines that were essential to progressing. If you wanted to learn how to craft something, you’d need to read a schematic to learn it. This incentivized exploration and looting in a big way since only rudimentary tools were available to your primitive caveman arse until you went out and edumucated yourself. Now, once again, progression has been reduced to a mindless grind thanks to the new perk system. Chop a few trees, bash a few skulls, do literally anything and guess what - now you can make forged iron! Bash a few more skulls - now you can make tools from steel! Less looting, more grinding, less fun.

 

Also, it makes absolutely no sense that a schematic should be a consumable crafting item. After crafting one piece of armor, suddenly both the direction sheet and the knowledge of how to craft such an item poof into the void. Not only is this downright silly and unrealistic, it’s tedious.

 

5. Item quality and gun parts have been super-simplified. Previous game versions featured qualities ranging from 1 all the way to 600. This has since been condensed to 1-6. Combine this with the removal of gun assembly, and looting has once again been heavily deemphasized. Now, rather than slowly acquiring better and better gun parts and upgrading your hard earned weapon as you go, you will most likely be drowning in fully assembled weapons from day 1. Before the first blood moon, my friends and I had already gathered 3 max quality firearms.

 

————

 

Basically... this game isn’t fun anymore because levels are literally all that matter, and gaining levels is a total grind. I used to love this game, and this latest playthrough has made me genuinely sad and left me astonished at many of the changes.

 

Thoughts?

 

All of this perfectly reflects my gripes with A17... but, I would also like to add the dungeon POI's to the list. It's OK to have them, maybe for those top tier places that give the good/best loot, but not for every single one POI there is.

[jdm311]

snipped...

 

I agree with every point. The scavenging aspect was one of my favorites in the game and the changes you listed really impacted it in a major way. But if Viktor III will change his review to positive based on A18 hype, there probably is hope.

[Viktoriusiii]

I agree with every point. The scavenging aspect was one of my favorites in the game and the changes you listed really impacted it in a major way. But if Viktor III will change his review to positive based on A18 hype, there probably is hope.

 

I mean... I got us electric door/drawbridges, didn't I?

But I truely do have my hopes up.

 

 

And I like how I'm beeing used as a milestone here #knownasthebiggesthaterofa17

Yay

[SylenThunder]

I mean... I got us electric door/drawbridges, didn't I?

But I truely do have my hopes up.

 

 

And I like how I'm beeing used as a milestone here #knownasthebiggesthaterofa17

Yay

I wouldn't go as far as saying that you got us that. It was in the plan for a long time.

[unholyjoe]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that you got us that. It was in the plan for a long time.

 

lot of people would be surprised to actually know how long ago some of these ideas were really conceived. the time is right when the time is right...