Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Roland]

How do you feel about the fact you can mine rocks all day then become a better swimmer as a consequence? Immersion breaking for you at all? ;P

 

Swimmers do weight training and we learned from the Rocky documentaries that weight training using your surrounding environment is the best kind of weight training. If I sing the Rocky theme while mining then my immersion is maintained when I click that swimming perk buy button because I have the eye of the tiger when I do it.

[iBane]

Swimmers do weight training and we learned from the Rocky documentaries that weight training using your surrounding environment is the best kind of weight training. If I sing the Rocky theme while mining then my immersion is maintained when I click that swimming perk buy button because I have the eye of the tiger when I do it.

 

Hi Roland,

 

Any recent word on if RWG improvements will come in an update for A17? Thanks.

[Ghostlight]

Swimmers do weight training and we learned from the Rocky documentaries that weight training using your surrounding environment is the best kind of weight training. If I sing the Rocky theme while mining then my immersion is maintained when I click that swimming perk buy button because I have the eye of the tiger when I do it.

 

OK I'll give you that. How about if I Mine the next day too then learn how to make Bacon and Eggs because of it? ;P

[HungryZombie]

The impetus was people saying, "Great post." I daresay I gave more details than they did about why I was confused by that assessment. It was an invitation for greater detail from those who thought it was so great.

 

(snip..)

 

I'm just trying to be understood since my inquiring statement obviously did not elicit the response that I hoped. We can be done (or not). It has been civil, and that's laudable.

 

These parts of the conversation I find most interesting so I'm happy to elaborate. If you want a reply on anything else just ask but it's just veering away from the point and I'm just willing to let it all go.

 

In particular I find it fascinating how people can view the same thing and come away with totally different impressions. Let me explain what I read and thought was great.

 

What I think I love most about 7dtd is the atmosphere it sets. You wake up alone and confused. The wind is howling and there is devastation everywhere. You have to really struggle at first to get yourself set up. It's the survival elements for sure that's part of the appeal but those are just details. It's the "Immersion" (there's that word!) of waking naked (practically) and afraid to rip off the TV show. It's the sounds and shadows and terrain and the POI's that set the stage. It's why things like stamina and slow gathering upfront don't put me off like some people. I'd expect to be rather off my game waking up in such a situation. As time passes (and you level) your shaky legs start to wear off and you can get more done.

 

I really get bored once cops & irradiated start showing up but it's something I can endure because I like the rest of the game.

 

So what I thought was great was his statement that he'd love an immersive walking dead/romero style game. What I read of his comments certain things break him out of is groove.

 

Yes the zombie hordes in shows like The Walking Dead do flock to a noise, but they do not start bashing through the walls nor do they dig down. They are very easily distracted. Rick had many options as to what do to on the show but he got stuck because he at first did not want to bring the bridge down. Only cause of his injuries (and super fast sneaky zombies that appear to be moving very slow and in a blink of an eye surround you, but I digress) does he have to end up blowing the bridge.

 

My point is they do not radar drone strike you and rarely chew through walls.

 

My ideal game would be 7d2d, minus the tower defense horde night stuff, with a little bit of dead island style combat and the community building/quests of state of decay.

 

This is pretty much what he said (at least what I noticed) and I totally glossed over the parts you didn't like. That's cognitive bias. Just as you saw his over-reactions and didn't understand the (to me) obvious & reasonable things he said he didn't like like vomiting vultures and digging zombies.

 

Saying these things are immersion breaking is not an over-reaction but just expressing an opinion. In fact saying that it's an over-reaction would be hyperbolic in my book.

 

Saying building is pointless is a bit of an over-reaction I'd agree is fair to say. Now does being a bit hyperbolic takes away from his overall point of what he is expressing as an opinion? Maybe, maybe not. That's where our individual perceptions come into play.

[Zephinism]

Hi,

 

I was playing a bit of 7Days to Die with my friends recently and I have a couple of issues with the game.

 

1) Hot & Cold - Temperature problems. My character can go from being too hot to too cold in a matter of seconds on my random gen world, and the stamina loss as well as increased appetite my character develops is absurd. I have tried shifting my clothes around, and have put two points in the stat to reduce the effect.

 

2) Bicycles - I made a bicycle, I rode it for a bit and let my friend ride it. He rode it for a couple of minutes then had to go. When I went to ride his bicycle it wouldnt move and I could no longer get off of it. I logged off and back in, and the bicycle was gone.

 

Today I was riding my bicycle to the trader, it was 21:30(ish) and I was in a rush to get my quest handed in. I crashed into the mailbox outside the Traders front door and dismounted my bicycle, my bicycle continued it's trajectory and then exploded!?! I handed my quest in and got booted out by the Trader, and lo and behold my bicycle (which was at ~60%) was gone.

 

Given how annoying it is to get wheels now, why do I keep encountering these problems?

[Roland]

OK I'll give you that. How about if I Mine the next day too then learn how to make Bacon and Eggs because of it? ;P

 

So, kidding aside, I just don't play like that. I don't track or even think about where xp is coming from. I'm very interested in fact in a modlet somebody mentioned for removing the xp announcement in the lower right corner.

 

I guess our brains are wired differently. I just don't worry or analyze what percentage of my experience comes from which source and I really believe it is because I am not strategically trying to be efficient about gaining xp. I play the game. I cook when I need to. I chop trees when I need to. I kill zombies when I need to. I explore and clear POI's for fun and for looting. I mine for resources as I need to. I really do play a game full of varied activities and I see it all going into my avatar's gain in experience. So when I take a perk in cooking it is because I as a player want my avatar to be better at that and I view the points as being an aggregate of all my activities.

 

Now for someone who does focus on the single best method of gaining xp and so who does that one activity repetitive for the purpose of gaining xp points I can see how they might feel that they are mining to learn bacon and eggs. But I don't play that way and as long as people are talking about core gameplay, I don't think that playing the game to repetitively focus on one activity to rapidly gain levels is the core of this game regardless of the model chosen for player progression.

 

I would invite you to go back to Alpha 10 and play that game and figure out why you are doing the activities you are doing when there is zero xp or player levels to be had. Is the gameplay all worthless without xp to be earned? Many of the people with multiple thousands of hours put those hours in during Alphas 1 - 10 before there ever was any xp and somehow they found value in mining, harvesting, building, exploring, looting, etc. without worrying about where xp was coming from and how much you got for it.

 

I still play pretty much the same way I did back then as far as my purposes and goals. So I can tell you that when I spend points for anything in the game those points feel like they came from all the activities I do to become a more experienced survivalist and I never feel a break of immersion that I'm spending THIS point from killing 10 zombies in order to be able to build a bicycle now.

 

I'm not saying the system is perfect. I think it can be improved. But the current system is great for me and the way I play. I'm sorry it doesn't work for how you like to play.

[Jedo]

In particular I find it fascinating how people can view the same thing and come away with totally different impressions. Let me explain what I read and thought was great.

 

<snip>

 

So what I thought was great was his statement that he'd love an immersive walking dead/romero style game. What I read of his comments certain things break him out of is groove.

 

<snip>

 

My ideal game would be 7d2d, minus the tower defense horde night stuff, with a little bit of dead island style combat and the community building/quests of state of decay.

 

This is pretty much what he said (at least what I noticed) and I totally glossed over the parts you didn't like. That's cognitive bias. Just as you saw his over-reactions and didn't understand the (to me) obvious & reasonable things he said he didn't like like vomiting vultures and digging zombies.

 

You liked his vision because you agree with it, so you like what he wrote? That's what makes his post "awesome"?

 

I think that is where we differ. Whether I agree with him or not, I would prefer the post to be cogent and based on facts rather than impressions. (Notice that this doesn't discount somebody's opinion; but the opinion must be grounded in reality.)

 

Saying building is pointless is a bit of an over-reaction I'd agree is fair to say. Now does being a bit hyperbolic takes away from his overall point of what he is expressing as an opinion? Maybe, maybe not. That's where our individual perceptions come into play.

 

Which is basically what you said. His way of expressing his opinion is an impediment to me...well, to me calling his post "awesome" or "a great example of a constructive post." *shrug* At least now I understand why you thought his post was good, and I thank you for that.

 

Saying these things are immersion breaking is not an over-reaction but just expressing an opinion. In fact saying that it's an over-reaction would be hyperbolic in my book.

 

I specified what parts were "overreactions," and it wasn't the stuff related to immersion breaking.

 

Yes the zombie hordes in shows like The Walking Dead do flock to a noise, but they do not start bashing through the walls nor do they dig down. They are very easily distracted.

 

My point is they do not radar drone strike you and rarely chew through walls.

 

When those zombies showed up on that farm, what do you think the group thought about how they got there? Do you think they might have felt like it was a "radar drone strike"?

 

This is my point: To have a game, the developers have to simulate things like this. To have a game, the zombies have to be an actual threat. What would the game be if you just sat in your base all the time without having to fear the zombies?

 

At any rate, my least favorite part is the tower defense horde night stuff, same as you. If I could turn off that part, I would, but I would leave in the wandering hordes at their former greatness (though a little more random). I love the Romero style, that's why I have zombies to jog/walk. The "immersion breaking" zombie block damage is just a concession that has to be made for the game to be a game.

[Roland]

Okay, I want to play the same game of reacting to Mad_Dane's post. I wonder if they are lurking....

 

If I wanted to play Diablo, I would be playing Diablo, if I wanted to play Borderlands I would do so.

 

This and the following rant in the first part of his post is certainly valid. TFP is borrowing ideas from both Diablo and Borderlands for the weaponry and loot. Some people are going to be excited by that prospect and others are going to be discouraged. Objectively, there is nothing wrong with it. As for the complaint that they have been slowing the pace of the game down since its inception, that is dead-on accurate but I disagree that it is a bad thing. I think the double whammy of having an economy of points AND level gates is too much. Its fine to have advancements cost more as you get higher but then that should be the control. You don't need that and gates in my opinion. But objecting to adding more mods and legendary weapon tiers because those things will lengthen out the progression more is wrong.

 

- POI's with big underground super labs - immersion breaking

- Radiated zombies - immersion breaking (If you know anything about biology, this just can't happen, radiation splits cells, and the Z would not

be able to move, no matter what virus it's infected with, in fact the virus will die too, it will never be sci-fi because it's not plausible)

- Cops vomiting 30 meters - immersion breaking

- Birds vomiting 30 meters - immersion breaking

- Z's destroying blocks with fingernails - immersion breaking

- Z's detecting you thru 5 layers on concrete - immersion breaking

- Houses having weird loot rooms - immersion breaking

- Stopping to select perks - immersion breaking

- Thinking about perks to select - immersion breaking

- Never meeting other people - immersion breaking

- vending machines in private homes - immersion breaking

- Wood blocks with 10K HP to try and keep me in your POI maze - immersion breaking

- Windows made from wood, not glas again to try and keep me in your maze - immersion breaking

- POI former inhabitants defences, makes no sense compared to how you are supposed to beat Z's - immersion breaking

- screamer hordes - immersion breaking

- The heat system in general - immersion breaking

- having to open the menu to see if I'm below the treshold, for not wasting any food or drink if I consume it - immersion breaking

- Mods and perks giving super human abilities - immersion breaking

- amount of Z's inside a POI - immersion breaking

 

None of this bothers me. Some of it seems necessary for gameplay purposes. You have a very narrow view of zombies. TFP can redefine monsters how they like. In this world zombies can do the things they do and given that we must survive.

 

 

 

- POI respawned because of quest - immersion breaking

- having a forge inside an indestructible trader - immersion breaking (In fact none of the workstations at the trader should work, it negates your level gates anyway, and just adds a new form of RNG!)

- Dogs making me bleed thru a full set of armor - immersion breaking

- Electricity working in POI's - immersion breaking

- Lights showing me the path inside POI's - immersion breaking

- POI's Z's respawn - immersion breaking

- Time of day affecting the light indoor, in a completely light sealed room - immersion breaking

 

I agree with these.

 

 

I also liked your block creator idea.

[HungryZombie]

You liked his vision because you agree with it, so you like what he wrote? That's what makes his post "awesome"?

 

Unless I'm not understanding your point I would think that would be obvious. Yes I liked what he said and I agreed with it, well parts of it anyways like I admitted my perception overlooked a few comments. The cherry on top that made it "awesome" was he didn't imply TFP's were stupid, deceitful or heading a conspiracy against the players.

 

This is my point: To have a game, the developers have to simulate things like this. To have a game, the zombies have to be an actual threat. What would the game be if you just sat in your base all the time without having to fear the zombies?

 

There is no one single way to implement a game and we are only limited by our imaginations. I am perfectly happy playing 7dtd exactly as it is and just turning off the horde night when it becomes an option. The fact they are adding such an option would seem to swing the argument in my favor.

 

So no, to have a game you do not have to have a radar drone strike of zombies. I'm glad you like though and that you have the option for it.

[Jedo]

The cherry on top that made it "awesome" was he didn't imply TFP's were stupid, deceitful or heading a conspiracy against the players.

 

I can agree with that!

[PoppaTot]

I can agree with that!

 

wait, does that mean my passing of time reading your discourse is over? I guess I have to work now.

[OnlyMeiya]

What bothers me is the emphasis for slowing the player down, instead of just creating more content for Early, mid, late, and end game.

 

The problem with slowing the early game down, is once the early game is done the rest of the game pretty much is also.

 

So far this has been a baggage of mixed feelings for me to play Alpha 17.

 

Multiplayer/PVP is completely broken, which left me with only single player and after about 40 hours of playing I got bored and quit playing for late game and just elected to keep myself immersed by creating challenges for myself within the first "7 days" which I recorded and shared here on the community forum, before a mod moved my threads into the Image/Video forum (Which gets like no traffic mind you )

 

I honestly can't like this game right now. I'm bored out of my mind.

[Exxodous]

 

Multiplayer/PVP is completely broken, .

 

I can't speak to PVP but I'm having a ball playing multiplayer. What is broken about it in your opinion?

[PoppaTot]

I can't speak to PVP but I'm having a ball playing multiplayer. What is broken about it in your opinion?

 

I'm having a ton of fun with MP peeps (those who still play) despite my griping the game is still enjoyable.

[RestInPieces]

None of this bothers me. Some of it seems necessary for gameplay purposes. You have a very narrow view of zombies. TFP can redefine monsters how they like. In this world zombies can do the things they do and given that we must survive.

 

Emphasis on some. Also, details may differ yes, but we are describing something specific by using the word "zombie". Some creativity can kill gimmicks and bullet sponges, eager to see that changing in the future.

[Grue]

I Play 7 Days to build bases. Now i have to grind out 100 levels so it doesn't feel like like i'm wasting my time. Every aspect is a waste of time, mining is slower, forges are level gated. I feel like i am wasting my life with work and not "playing".

 

So yeah. Kinda went off the rails there a bit. But this I am in 100% agreement with. And 7D2D has been great at filling in for what most other games have pushed me out of. Game play.

 

I... I just want to play a game man. I... I got a job. Kids... Wife... Bills... I HAVE a grind. lol.

 

TFP already has my money. And maybe their aiming for the huge MMO/RPG group of players now as that's probably a much bigger market for them now. Especially since most of us who wanted a 7D2D like it's been but tuned with more features... Already bought it. *shrug*

 

The skill system really does feel more like a face lift from "the norm"... kinda for the sake of doing the face lift and giving a norm to the masses. Didn't really seem necessary.

 

This seems to be a recurring problem with playing alpha release games.

The devs start out with something unique/interesting and then almost inevitably remove that core content which is largely responsible for their early success in favor of more grind-based play identical to every other game out there. As someone else already said, if I wanted to play Diablo or Overwatch, I would be playing Diablo or Overwatch.

 

At this point their sole concern should be chasing bugs and closing exploits on the path to a full release, not micromanaging the user experience with overtly grindy perk-walls and level-gates to artificially stretch out the content (read: waste play time), or try to turn it into a clone of other games.

 

Take base building for example:

The entire purpose of having a base, in my opinion, is to have a safe area with passive defenses to help keep the bad things out of your living room. If I want to use dead-fall traps, fields of spikes, or a well-hidden underground bunker to achieve that goal, that should be entirely up to me as a player.

 

There should be no "wrong" way to play a survival sandbox game, the only goal is to stay alive whatever means you see fit.

This should not be an arms race between the devs and players trying to outsmart each other, there definitely should not be a systematic effort to invalidate every popular/effective style of base building. See a cool build on youtube? Expect it to be "patched" next build.

 

I personally like running along my walls between elevated watchtowers and sniping zombies as they get caught on my spike traps.

That play style worked pretty well with the A16 zombie AI.

If there were any notable gaps in the defenses the zombies would head in that general direction... like the mindless zombies they are supposed to be.

 

Now the zombies can magically detect the weakest part of the structure, determine the path of least resistance, tunnel through a mountain, and literally punch through a steel wall faster than a player can with an auger.

We have to build MC Escher-like mazes to keep them busy because defensive walls are almost pointless.

 

Let the hoard of zombies just be a horde of zombies, not laser guided bulldozers with structural engineering degrees.

Save that "intelligent" AI pathing for the Bandits that were supposed to be implemented ages ago.

[OzHawkeye]

Now the zombies can magically detect the weakest part of the structure, determine the path of least resistance, tunnel through a mountain, and literally punch through a steel wall faster than a player can with an auger.

We have to build MC Escher-like mazes to keep them busy because defensive walls are almost pointless.

 

Let the hoard of zombies just be a horde of zombies, not laser guided bulldozers with structural engineering degrees.

Save that "intelligent" AI pathing for the Bandits that were supposed to be implemented ages ago.

 

This being Alpha, TFP are still working on AI - it's a system in evolution. I expect you'll find the current omniscient AI of Zombies, will be largely transferred to bandits (just as you're expecting), and A18 zombies will be somewhat less efficient at calculating the single handedly best path to reach you.

 

Seems to me, people are getting worked up thinking the A17 Zombie AI is how is going to be for all time from now on, when TFP haven't said anything like that.

[sage12]

A17 Feedback. Hopefully Useful

 

All feedback is opinionated, but I'll do my best to provide examples/reason to my items. Our opinions of what the game should be may not be the same. Of course, your opinion or experience may differ, and that's good. We can disagree amicably. I also understand that this is an experimental version of an Alpha and changes will be made and some bugs that may be mentioned will be fixed in short order. This is just my personal feedback towards that process.

 

1. Melee

 

Melee feels good. There is still the action queuing with left click/right click and punching when placing the last item in a stack. I don't feel like melee is any more dangerous than it was in A16 once you have the ranges figured out. The ranges feel awkward though. In the attached picture, I am just within range to hit, but it looks like I would need to take a step closer as I am a full body length away. The club isn't even 3 feet long, nevertheless 5 or 6. As a HEMA or kendo practitioner can tell you, even with a 3 foot long weapon, you have to be closer than 3 feet to hit. (screenshot taken with AI turned off so I could dial in the exact distance. Default FOV)

 

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2. POIs

 

Interesting, varied, and dangerous if you aren't careful. I was surprised by the sheer numbers of zombies, and (I don't know if this was meant to be humorous) the frequency of literal "monster closets." I can see how it is viewed as excessive numbers for any house, but I'm ok with it. By going carefully and making noise to draw zombies to me, they haven't posed too much added difficulty, just take longer and provide more entertainment (the good kind).

 

3. Spawning

 

In general, I haven't noticed zombies spawning out of thin air next to or behind me. Sometimes one will walk in behind me when looting a POI, but by placing wooden frames you can have a warning system. There is one place I have noticed them pop in/ load: when walking upstairs in a house (specifically one of the Diersville, sorry I can't remember which one right now), the upper floor cell pops in when you walk up the stairs, so you see them load.

 

4. Experience

 

Zombies provide too much experience relative to anything else. I feel as though if I'm not out hunting and killing zombies, I'm wasting time. I find myself wishing for wandering hordes and screamers. I've given some serious thought to kiting screamers around to get more experience. To me, zombies have changed from loot bags to experience bags.

 

5. Level Gating

 

This is a topic that particularly comes down to a matter of preference. I, personally, hate level gating. I hated it in A16 with the science requirement for workbenches and chemistry stations, for example, and I hate it now. I prefer the new leveling system over the old one, but I feel like I need to rush levels to get what I want: iron. There has to be some gating system in place, otherwise there is no progression. I think the game should play up its strengths here: resource gating. Make the player search for and gather resources from POIs to unlock things. Want a chemistry station? Go loot a hospital to find required components. Want a workbench? Go loot garages (maybe too easy a POI example but the idea is what I'm trying to illustrate). Want a crucible for steel? Loot a large industrial complex. I see the stone age as the introduction. It serves the purpose of introducing players to the mechanics of the game. Experienced players are able to get through faster. It's like unskippable tutorials in games for people who have already been through them.

 

6. AI

 

Heat-seeking zombies. They are very predictable in behavior. I like that they don't run in circles anymore, but they are perhaps too intelligent in some regards. When they know where you are, they know exactly how to get to you (if there is a way). This makes them exploitable. https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/...nding_to_your/

There is no siege of your base anymore. Now, I'll have to go about constructing the most efficient death-maze. To me, this is unfortunate. I, personally, would prefer the siege-style attack, pressing in and attacking from all sides. As it is, zombies are going to all be attacking one point of your defenses, rather than spreading out, pressing at the walls from all sides, and creating openings from unexpected avenues.

 

7. Block Durability

 

I have read the notes regarding "active defense." Maybe the group attack buff is too strong. Against a horde, flagstone upgraded doesn't do anything. Here's my experience of my first (short-lived) playthrough (Dead is dead on that playthrough. I don't always play DiD, but it was a test run). On default settings, I got to level 20 on day 7. I had the materials for a forge ready to go and made a forge. I had an upgraded flagstone base, two tiers. I had learned previously that pillar 50 didn't do anything, so I swapped those out with the iron bars. The first floor was upgraded flagstone block, iron bars, upgraded flagstone block. A row of the wood spikes I dislike (too weak. I knew they would only work on the first wave then disappear. A pain to gather enough wood with stone tools) were outside. I had an iron club with a barbed mod (backup), a compound bow with a stack of iron arrows (barely made the arrows in time), and a shotgun with about 70 shells to fight with. I started the night ready to fight. I didn't even get through a fraction of the ammo before they were in. I did unload the shotgun into a zombie cop before they got through. He never got the vomit off from what I saw and I killed him, he didn't explode. I godmode flew back to the area to observe and I saw several irradiated spider zombies and more cops! My second playthrough saw a feral wight on day 3 or 4 from a screamer. Good old stone keeps with machicolations don't work at all anymore, even against the day 7 horde.

 

8. Death Penalty

 

Again, I do realize this is a particularly opinionated issue. I am against the current version. To me, death and the hike back to your bag is failure and the fear of losing my hard-earned equipment should I die again is worse than any temporary penalty. I also do not believe it is productive in the least to suggest lowering the difficulty or making the penalty tied to difficulty. There is one main reason for this: lower difficulties provide a lower challenge. I do not wish to make zombies easier to kill or myself harder to kill. I am comfortable with the levels of the difficulty I have selected. The current level of challenge in this regard is good. What I dislike is the lengthy debuff. Could I still go out and get my experience killing zombies? Yes. Should I, with the lowered stats, risk looting a POI or running into a pack? Probably not. So, I'm stuck at base doing base things and not getting that required experience from killing zombies I need to level up. But the clock is still ticking. I need to level up. Some may see this as a positive. My opinion differs. I find myself bored rather than "suffering the consequences." I also agree that an hour if real-time is too long.

 

 

 

Thank you for your time.

[Jedo]

Seems to me, people are getting worked up thinking the A17 Zombie AI is how is going to be for all time from now on, when TFP haven't said anything like that.

 

Yes, but if nobody ever says anything, the dumb TFP devs won't know that they need to fix it.[/s]

[OzHawkeye]

Yes, but if nobody ever says anything, the dumb TFP devs won't know that they need to fix it.[/s]

 

Well, I reckon if I'd been TFP, I would have like done the same thing, at least internally. Said in a meeting "Ok, let's make the AI as good as we can, and see what that's like", then, once the community has had a chance to play with it "Ok, let's dial it back some for them dumb-as-posts Zombies, but leave intact for those PITA Bandits".

 

It's up to TFP of course, but I'd be real surprised if in A18, Zombies remained the all-knowing, slide-rule-in-a-pocket-block-calculating, conga-lining, laser-focusing-on-a-single-block threat that they currently are.

 

The bigger issue will be that it didn't take but a few days for people to find ways to cheese them into endless pathing, which means that Bandits will likely suffer the same fate unless TFP finds a way to counter it.

[Poojam]

So, kidding aside, I just don't play like that. I don't track or even think about where xp is coming from. I'm very interested in fact in a modlet somebody mentioned for removing the xp announcement in the lower right corner.

 

I guess our brains are wired differently. I just don't worry or analyze what percentage of my experience comes from which source and I really believe it is because I am not strategically trying to be efficient about gaining xp. I play the game. I cook when I need to. I chop trees when I need to. I kill zombies when I need to. I explore and clear POI's for fun and for looting. I mine for resources as I need to. I really do play a game full of varied activities and I see it all going into my avatar's gain in experience. So when I take a perk in cooking it is because I as a player want my avatar to be better at that and I view the points as being an aggregate of all my activities.

 

Now for someone who does focus on the single best method of gaining xp and so who does that one activity repetitive for the purpose of gaining xp points I can see how they might feel that they are mining to learn bacon and eggs. But I don't play that way and as long as people are talking about core gameplay, I don't think that playing the game to repetitively focus on one activity to rapidly gain levels is the core of this game regardless of the model chosen for player progression.

 

I would invite you to go back to Alpha 10 and play that game and figure out why you are doing the activities you are doing when there is zero xp or player levels to be had. Is the gameplay all worthless without xp to be earned? Many of the people with multiple thousands of hours put those hours in during Alphas 1 - 10 before there ever was any xp and somehow they found value in mining, harvesting, building, exploring, looting, etc. without worrying about where xp was coming from and how much you got for it.

 

I still play pretty much the same way I did back then as far as my purposes and goals. So I can tell you that when I spend points for anything in the game those points feel like they came from all the activities I do to become a more experienced survivalist and I never feel a break of immersion that I'm spending THIS point from killing 10 zombies in order to be able to build a bicycle now.

 

I'm not saying the system is perfect. I think it can be improved. But the current system is great for me and the way I play. I'm sorry it doesn't work for how you like to play.

 

The primary goal of the game is to survive. A goal for most players is to manage their time while playing the game. They have other things to do as well instead of playing the game. A smart player notices that their time spent in game is much more equitable and rich if they gain the resources & skills needed to survive easier/better/do neater stuff. You're advocating for a gameplay style that may work for you, but is tone deaf to the masses & core game design.

[Grue]

This being Alpha, TFP are still working on AI - it's a system in evolution. I expect you'll find the current omniscient AI of Zombies, will be largely transferred to bandits (just as you're expecting), and A18 zombies will be somewhat less efficient at calculating the single handedly best path to reach you.

 

Seems to me, people are getting worked up thinking the A17 Zombie AI is how is going to be for all time from now on, when TFP haven't said anything like that.

 

I certainly hope they tone it down and use the "advanced" AI for the bandits, but we still have to point these things out to them so they can fix it.

 

Yes, but if nobody ever says anything, the dumb TFP devs won't know that they need to fix it.

 

Exactly this! We cannot take for granted they will do what is logical.

[Roland]

The primary goal of the game is to survive. A goal for most players is to manage their time while playing the game. They have other things to do as well instead of playing the game.

 

I do too. I have about an hour or two per week I can spend playing. Whether that time is spent doing a variety of tasks as I described or repetitively doing the one task that nets the most xp in the shortest amount of time how does that change the fact that I’m playing for an hour or two each week? And what does managing my play time compared to other life activities have to do with the survival goal of the game? I survive just fine playing as I do and I also manage all my life activities other than playing without a problem. But whether the game had learn by doing or the current point system it wouldn’t change my time management of my leisure time in my life. That’s weird.

 

A smart player notices that their time spent in game is much more equitable and rich if they gain the resources & skills needed to survive easier/better/do neater stuff.

 

A smarter person realizes that different people will feel that their time spent in any activity is equitable and rich if what they’re doing has value to them and that there isn’t one formula of attributes separated by backslashes that works for everyone.

 

You're advocating for a gameplay style that may work for you, but is tone deaf to the masses & core game design.

 

Maybe you have a handle on the masses and maybe you don’t. Thing is you’re wrong about me advocating anything. I’m sharing how I like to play and why I am enjoying the current alpha regardless of how anyone else likes to play. Maybe I’m not a smart player in your book but I’m a happy and entertained player and that’s good enough for me. Maybe you have the playbook on what the core game design should be for smart players but the current core game design is great for me. It’s not perfect but there are no deal breakers and I’m hopeful modding will bridge any gaps I have. Generally speaking though this is the best version of the game by far but you can add “for the stupid gamers” to the end of that if it makes you feel better 👍

[Roland]

I certainly hope they tone it down and use the "advanced" AI for the bandits, but we still have to point these things out to them so they can fix it.

 

Technically, since they always stated that this was just the preliminary step in the new AI and pathfinding and never stated anywhere that it was the final product you really didn’t have to point it out so they can fix it. They were always going to fix it. You pointing it out is just to make yourself feel better.

 

Even psychologists can’t get anything accomplished in less than nine sessions....

[Lanadon Conners]

Technically, since they always stated that this was just the preliminary step in the new AI and pathfinding and never stated anywhere that it was the final product you really didn’t have to point it out so they can fix it. They were always going to fix it. You pointing it out is just to make yourself feel better.

 

Even psychologists can’t get anything accomplished in less than nine sessions....

 

I have only ever had access to 2 other game "Alpha" stages of their development and I have to say that 7D2D is going a lot smoother than the other 2 went. The Alpha stage is where the Dev's toss hardware and software into the mix and test how it affects the gameplay. I bought in fully expecting crashes, glitches and unbalanced game situations of a game "UNDER CONSTRUCTION" but the game itself appeals enough to me to stick it out to see the final outcome. I am still having fun

 

 

The success of this game is directly related to the dev's paychecks (and their sense of accomplishment and future projects) so claims that the devs don't care, don't listen or any of the other nasty comments about their IQs just doesn't make sense and must be a release of frustration.

 

Thank you Roland, for trying to "Herd all these Cats" on the forums.