What are the benifits of level gating?

[Dimpy]

There seem to be a lot of people on this forum who are displeased by there inability to do fairly basic things like boil eggs or make forges in A17. A lot of the arguments struck me illogical and and unappreciative of the early game, but it made me think, what is the point of gating attributes behind levels? I can think of two reasons why that might be. First, it keeps new players on track and keeps them from making imbalanced characters. Second, I get the impression that this game is following the mechanical template set forth by DnD(we call them Role-playing games even if they aren't primarily focused on pretedning to play a role.). These kind of games are about getting a feeling of progression, and feeling good about the character you built. If players could get a few late-game abilities or pieces of gear in the first week, then they wouldn't even bother playing the game longer than that. Right?

Maybe. The DnD concept is a tried-and-true method, but I don't see why it is specifically suited to this game. I'm all for gating perks behind attributes, but gating attributes behind levels? Meh. I'm going to need some more convincing.

[Dimpy]

Here are a few ideas that could be used instead of or in conjunction with level-gating:

1. The old "learning by doing system".
   
2. After you buy an attribute point, there will be a time delay before it goes into effect. If you buy multiple levels, the time will be additive. The delay increases at higher levels.
   
3. Some kind of before-game character creation menu determines base max attributes.(don't think this would be good for vanilla)
   
4. You can sacrifice experience to buy an attribute early.
   

[sadpickle]

There should be no level-gating. But since things like damage and combat performance are now purely perk-based, it's unlikely they will remove level-gating, because the focus seems to be on PVP and without level-gating PVP players would just pick the strongest combat perks first.

 

I play PVE and I don't like being locked out of building materials/blocks/etc until I kill x number of zombies. The entire system of zombies providing the most xp, which leads to perks feels fundamentally broken to me. I miss the freedom of A16.

[Zourin]

Level gating itself is not bad.

 

What is bad in 7DTD is how aggressive the level gating is. You are left feeling like you're being stalled for HOURS before you can progress beyond anything except boiled eggs. The early game is fast, fleeting, and high-pressure, but there's no reward for it.

 

Iron tools and attribute level 4's need to unlock at level 10, not 20. If you're old enough to take a death penalty for 60 minutes, you're old enough to have a damn forge.

[giKoN]

There should be no level-gating. But since things like damage and combat performance are now purely perk-based, it's unlikely they will remove level-gating, because the focus seems to be on PVP and without level-gating PVP players would just pick the strongest combat perks first.

 

I play PVE and I don't like being locked out of building materials/blocks/etc until I kill x number of zombies. The entire system of zombies providing the most xp, which leads to perks feels fundamentally broken to me. I miss the freedom of A16.

 

For clarification, PVP doesnt mean to play 7 days like it was counter strike. And surely PVP is not the focus of the pimps as they have expressed repeatedly.

In A17 PVP would equally suck for every player. The biggest component of PVP is raiding other player's bases.

 

And thus, a PVP server typically sees teams distributing roles in the beginning to have good bases, good loot and good fighters at the same time while converging to good fighters in the end game except for those who just want to build bases to defend them against other players. I can tell as a PVP player, I would love to go back to what we had in a16 +/- some tweaks or perks.

 

Learning by doing is one of the most prominent sayings. Thus it should apply in this game. Things like Rifle Skill to increase damage never made sense. Rifle skill can only improve how you aim, your reaction time and things like that. But your gun doesnt shoot the bullet twice as fast, twice as hard or whatsoever if you are very skilled.

 

Overall, it was correct to address the progression system - the result however is devastating for cooperative play in my opinion and leads to little variety in early and mid-stage player characterization.

[arquebus]

My group is finding the new perk system to be a really useful and interesting change. Different players focus on different aspects of the perk system, so that in the early game everyone is specialized. Eventually that will change (since by max level you can get every perk), but for right now, each of us has our own role in the group. In the old system that was less dominant.

 

I enjoy level-gating because I like playing a game that doesn't give me every option up front. I also really didn't like the old system where you had to grind certain skills to improve them. That got tedious and boring very quickly.

 

From what I've been reading, most of the players who don't like the new perk system don't like that they have to struggle in the early game. They want to be more effective at lower level so that they can do the things they want to do right from the start. That's a valid desire but it really only makes sense if you're a veteran player who wants to get to a specific type of "the good stuff."

 

New players, or players who get a lot more enjoyment out of the early game, probably don't mind the perk system as much because it provides big, tangible effects at each level. Being able to go from zero health regen to health regen every 15 seconds is a massive upgrade and the sense of achievement when you can get that perk is real.

 

Veteran players and players for whom "the good stuff" is end-game stuff are never going to like the perk system. But not everyone is a veteran, and not everyone is in it for complex hassle-free base building.

 

For a number of iterations of the game now, the focus of play has really been on complex, hassle-free building. The presence of zombies was a minor nuisance except on horde nights, and even then there were easy ways to mitigate the harm. But that's not the entirety of what the game is supposed to be. It's Survival as well as Crafting. This change is intended, I feel, to balance the game back toward the middle between those two aspects. The old system didn't do that - it was weighted far too heavily in favor of the Crafting half of the game.

[Zourin]

The perk system is GREAT. There aren't bad points to be spent anywhere, except based what you prioritize for your build.

 

The rate of progression, however, is draconic if you're not in a multiplayer setting where you have a bro at your back giving each other 100% exp shares.

 

Sure, veterans used to be able to get a forge going by day 2 or 3 on average, and if you were lucky, maybe find a free forge on day 1. That first week was a flurry of scrambling, scrounging, exploration, and development. They gutted all of it for a grind, because the only gameplay advancement you can look forward to is boiled eggs.

[arquebus]

Things like Rifle Skill to increase damage never made sense. Rifle skill can only improve how you aim, your reaction time and things like that. But your gun doesnt shoot the bullet twice as fast, twice as hard or whatsoever if you are very skilled.

 

It's common in RPG-style games. The conceit is usually that damage-increasing skills are reflecting the character's ability to find weak points and vital spots more easily. People who play 7D2D from the perspective of a first-person shooter will of course find this jarring, because they expect their ability to take down zombies to be dependent entirely on their own player skill. I'm very glad 7D2D doesn't do that. I don't want CS:GO with zombies. I'd be ♥♥♥♥ at CS:GO with zombies.

 

the result however is devastating for cooperative play in my opinion and leads to little variety in early and mid-stage player characterization.

 

My experience has been 180 degrees the opposite. My group has found cooperative play to be much more interesting now. We all specialize in the early game, and not everyone picks the same specializations. We all hated the old "learn by doing" system because it meant we all had to go out and do the same repetitive tasks again and again and again in order to level up the most basic skills. It was tedious and irritating. The new system, plus the party xp sharing, means that the players who aren't good at FPS combat can stay in support positions (crafting ammo, armor, bandages, etc.) while the more skilled FPS players do the tanking and damage-dealing.

 

In our experience, A17 is leaps and bounds more fun than A16. It's not even close.

[Slingblade2040]

There should be no level-gating. But since things like damage and combat performance are now purely perk-based, it's unlikely they will remove level-gating, because the focus seems to be on PVP and without level-gating PVP players would just pick the strongest combat perks first.

 

I play PVE and I don't like being locked out of building materials/blocks/etc until I kill x number of zombies. The entire system of zombies providing the most xp, which leads to perks feels fundamentally broken to me. I miss the freedom of A16.

 

What freedom? We had to wait to unlock certain things at certain levels in in alpha 16 also. The only difference in alpha 16 was that you can speed to those levels and have a reinforced concrete base by day 14 and by day 28 have such a OP base and character that the game became boring as hell even at warrior or insane settings.

[ColdGate]

What freedom? We had to wait to unlock certain things at certain levels in in alpha 16 also. The only difference in alpha 16 was that you can speed to those levels and have a reinforced concrete base by day 14 and by day 28 have such a OP base and character that the game became boring as hell even at warrior or insane settings.

No, it become boring only if you play exactly same way each time, in A16 you may play many ways, but A17 restricted to ONLY ONE WAY to play for everybody, and due to this it replayability leads to zero

[Darkweaver]

only one way to play? dude are you trolling?

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

There should be no level-gating. But since things like damage and combat performance are now purely perk-based, it's unlikely they will remove level-gating, because the focus seems to be on PVP and without level-gating PVP players would just pick the strongest combat perks first.

 

I play PVE and I don't like being locked out of building materials/blocks/etc until I kill x number of zombies. The entire system of zombies providing the most xp, which leads to perks feels fundamentally broken to me. I miss the freedom of A16.

 

the dumb pvps would do that. Me, i just put spikes in places that people would not suspect, wood spikes do a lot of damage for just a little wood. Sure i have to be creative, but it is super effective and funny.

 

The level gating is not too bad, once you figure things out. the change in game play style from a16 to 17 was a shock but after awhile things start to make sense. it does slow down progress, but not by too much. sure you won't have steel bunkers for day 7, but cobblestone reinforced poi's are enough, and if you go at the pace of two levels a day you will have a forge before day 14.

 

The level gating in this game appears to be a means to force hard choices. Do i want damage resistance or food this level? do i want to deal damage or craft? am i stuck in the desert biome for awhile? Once you get the hang of things, it is not so bad.

 

It is also a bit fair. you no longer have to deal with RNG as much. Not getting a good club? no problem, just get a few perks. someone loot all the good spots? just get a few perks. Sure leveling is tied to killing zombies, but you get tons of those a day and night that it is not too bad.

 

The trick is to get your base horde ready asap, because now it is not just blood moon hordes, but random hordes that detect you nightly. Once your base is horde ready you can spend all night fighting and gaining xp.

[SickPuppy]

Tried to give it a chance but I do admit it's a very strange design. If I want to put all my points into agility just for a different play style I can't I have to be lvl 20 to progress in that skill. Annoying to be held back for what purpose I'm not sure.

 

If someone wants to build a certain character I say let them choose freely, they'll be weaker in other skills early game but it'll add to replay value and trying different character paths.

[Aldranon]

For experience gain, the only way that's as fast as killing zombies is punching the corn fields in Navazgane (Hurry before its nerfed!).

#CornPunchersUnite!

 

So a min/max'er is going to go for killing zombies and killing them hard and fast.

Until you get a weapon that does a lot of damage, the damage bonuses don't help until you start getting the strong zombies. So speed and stamina is great early.

 

There are ways to test a POI to determine what kind it is (Safe or Death Trap) and a Min/Maxer will tear through the safe ones like The Plague.

He will be many times your level in two weeks. UNLESS you do exactly the save thing.

 

You see now?

[Zourin]

Tried to give it a chance but I do admit it's a very strange design. If I want to put all my points into agility just for a different play style I can't I have to be lvl 20 to progress in that skill. Annoying to be held back for what purpose I'm not sure.

 

If someone wants to build a certain character I say let them choose freely, they'll be weaker in other skills early game but it'll add to replay value and trying different character paths.

 

There's a lot in every tree, and it's good that you can't 'power dump'. There are a LOT of hard choices to make here. If you're a stealthy 'thief/burglar', you go for one blend of perks in Agility/perception/fortitude, which is VERY different from a Tank, which is very heavy into Fortitude/Strength (and is very fun to play with steel armor), and both of those are different from a ranger type (Perception/Strength/Fortitude) who specializes in natural resources and hunting. Then you have engineers, medchefs, and "community traders'.

 

The trouble is single player. Single player characters need heavy investment in Int or they fall behind the power curve.

[Duffmeister77]

On the whole, I like the perk system. Some of the level gates could do with tweaking a bit, but it's a decent system.

 

As for not being able to boil an egg at the start of the game, I can only assume TFP were so desperate to have five levels for every perk that they went overboard. Maybe they should allow a small amount of asymmetry to reduce the awkwardness.

[SickPuppy]

There's a lot in every tree, and it's good that you can't 'power dump'. There are a LOT of hard choices to make here. If you're a stealthy 'thief/burglar', you go for one blend of perks in Agility/perception/fortitude, which is VERY different from a Tank, which is very heavy into Fortitude/Strength (and is very fun to play with steel armor), and both of those are different from a ranger type (Perception/Strength/Fortitude) who specializes in natural resources and hunting. Then you have engineers, medchefs, and "community traders'.

 

The trouble is single player. Single player characters need heavy investment in Int or they fall behind the power curve.

 

I like all the skill trees and I like the hard choices to make, I'm looking forward to building differently like u say but there's the problem I'm restricted. I want to make an athletic build with good stamina, game is telling me 'No u can't progress any further unless u hit a certain player level, now go kill more zombies and get more xp'.

 

It's not like if i power dump into Agility I suddenly become over powered and break the game, I just want to have more stamina for an athletic build. Let's say someone likes to build so they need to up Perception / Mother Lode to get more resources, but game is saying no u can't do that. And power dumping still makes u sacrifice a lot of other skills and make u vulnerable. But restricting the players choices is starting to feel very artificial and annoying.

 

I can see how dumping into Fortitude might sway the balance of the game early on:

+ Reduce HP loss by 25%. Iron Chin: No chance to get stunned.

+ Gain 1 HP every 2 seconds with natural healing. Gain 1 max health every 10 seconds.

 

That would make u very hard to kill.

 

Can u elaborate on the SP experience needing to invest heavily in Int? I'm not far into my game yet, do u mean for the forge and the other work stations?

[Wulf]

One of the biggest benefits for content creators (ie. The Fun Pimps) is that they can spread out their content better, by making the player always have something to look forward to (just within a few levels range).

[Moldy Bread]

Well, the benefits are! em... You see... I'll get back to you on that.

[Poojam]

One of the biggest benefits for content creators (ie. The Fun Pimps) is that they can spread out their content better, by making the player always have something to look forward to (just within a few levels range).

 

I like that you called them content creators at the same time as you acknowledged that they have simply slowed the game down to spread out the existing content longer. In other words, they are not creating more content.

[Zourin]

I like all the skill trees and I like the hard choices to make, I'm looking forward to building differently like u say but there's the problem I'm restricted. I want to make an athletic build with good stamina, game is telling me 'No u can't progress any further unless u hit a certain player level, now go kill more zombies and get more xp'.

 

It's not like if i power dump into Agility I suddenly become over powered and break the game, I just want to have more stamina for an athletic build. Let's say someone likes to build so they need to up Perception / Mother Lode to get more resources, but game is saying no u can't do that. And power dumping still makes u sacrifice a lot of other skills and make u vulnerable. But restricting the players choices is starting to feel very artificial and annoying.

 

I can see how dumping into Fortitude might sway the balance of the game early on:

+ Reduce HP loss by 25%. Iron Chin: No chance to get stunned.

+ Gain 1 HP every 2 seconds with natural healing. Gain 1 max health every 10 seconds.

 

That would make u very hard to kill.

 

Can u elaborate on the SP experience needing to invest heavily in Int? I'm not far into my game yet, do u mean for the forge and the other work stations?

 

You need 7 Int to unlock the following mandatory solo items (6pts):

Leather/Iron armor & tools (2 pts) <- Steel tools/armor requires more points. It's easier to just go to the Trader

Motorcycle (3pts) <-

Req 7 int

Blade traps (3pts). <--- You seriously aren't showing up on horde night without this? Req L7 int

Tier 2 mods (and advanced bow ammo) (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

First aid kits (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

Cooking < more points

 

So we're talking at least 19+ points JUST in intelligence skills for every solo player to sustain mid-tier tech, medical supplies, and food. Lets round it to 20 points for now.

 

If you don't want to delay your tech development, you're effectively specializing in Intelligence, since of these, you can only buy 4 points of these before level 20, and based on that gating pattern, you can't get level 7 Int until level 80.

 

So ,assuming you reserve points, by 80, you should have 85 perk points. 20 of which are now spent on Int.

 

There's a lot of play in the remaining points because of the forced, 20-level gap gating. No matter what you play, ~25% of your skill points are going to go into, or be reserved for, intelligence if you're solo.

[Zourin]

Also, a lot of activities are split between multiple attributes, which I think is ingenious.

 

Melee focus is split between Str and Fort

Stealth is split between Perception and Agility (bows/ninjas)

Scavenging/Loothogging is Perception/Intelligence (scav/looter/trader)

Natural resourcing is split between Str and Fort

Stamina is split between Str and Agi

Defense is split between Fort (hp) and Int (tech)

 

 

A nomadic ranger type might pick up Perception for the headshot/gunnery skills, Strength for Pack Mule and natural resource gathering, and Fortitude for temperature survival, self sufficiency, and animal harvesting. And Int 7 for a motorcycle if he's not playing multiplayer where someone is the sacrificial xp-sharing nerd that gets to sit outside the POI while everyone else fights inside.

[caatalyst]

My group is finding the new perk system to be a really useful and interesting change. Different players focus on different aspects of the perk system, so that in the early game everyone is specialized. Eventually that will change (since by max level you can get every perk), but for right now, each of us has our own role in the group. In the old system that was less dominant.

 

I enjoy level-gating because I like playing a game that doesn't give me every option up front. I also really didn't like the old system where you had to grind certain skills to improve them. That got tedious and boring very quickly.

 

From what I've been reading, most of the players who don't like the new perk system don't like that they have to struggle in the early game. They want to be more effective at lower level so that they can do the things they want to do right from the start. That's a valid desire but it really only makes sense if you're a veteran player who wants to get to a specific type of "the good stuff."

 

New players, or players who get a lot more enjoyment out of the early game, probably don't mind the perk system as much because it provides big, tangible effects at each level. Being able to go from zero health regen to health regen every 15 seconds is a massive upgrade and the sense of achievement when you can get that perk is real.

 

Veteran players and players for whom "the good stuff" is end-game stuff are never going to like the perk system. But not everyone is a veteran, and not everyone is in it for complex hassle-free base building.

 

For a number of iterations of the game now, the focus of play has really been on complex, hassle-free building. The presence of zombies was a minor nuisance except on horde nights, and even then there were easy ways to mitigate the harm. But that's not the entirety of what the game is supposed to be. It's Survival as well as Crafting. This change is intended, I feel, to balance the game back toward the middle between those two aspects. The old system didn't do that - it was weighted far too heavily in favor of the Crafting half of the game.

 

Level gating isn't the only system for making the early game difficult. I welcome the difficulty increase that came with A17, it's one the game needed the most in my opinion.

 

That said, I really dislike the new perk system. I much preferred progressing by doing as it created a sense of accomplishment. There is none of that in the new system.

[SickPuppy]

You need 7 Int to unlock the following mandatory solo items (6pts):

Leather/Iron armor & tools (2 pts) <- Steel tools/armor requires more points. It's easier to just go to the Trader

Motorcycle (3pts) <-

Req 7 int

Blade traps (3pts). <--- You seriously aren't showing up on horde night without this? Req L7 int

Tier 2 mods (and advanced bow ammo) (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

First aid kits (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

Cooking < more points

 

So we're talking at least 19+ points JUST in intelligence skills for every solo player to sustain mid-tier tech, medical supplies, and food. Lets round it to 20 points for now.

 

If you don't want to delay your tech development, you're effectively specializing in Intelligence, since of these, you can only buy 4 points of these before level 20, and based on that gating pattern, you can't get level 7 Int until level 80.

 

So ,assuming you reserve points, by 80, you should have 85 perk points. 20 of which are now spent on Int.

 

There's a lot of play in the remaining points because of the forced, 20-level gap gating. No matter what you play, ~25% of your skill points are going to go into, or be reserved for, intelligence if you're solo.

 

I see what u mean about wanting high Int. Tbh I was hoping the bicycle was a found item, it's not overly powerful and maybe something to play around with.

 

But as u point out if someone wanted to play a passive Int build he's restricted at lvl 20 and even needs lvl 80 to progress his build. It's just that small detail of restricting the players choice of progression that is the problem. I've been pro TFP making the game harder and more survival based for a long time and it feels great to play now. I also like how the perks are split into different categories like u say.

 

It's just that one small invisible wall restricting player choice that's such an artificial hinderance. Tbh A16 wasn't that much different, but we new the requirements to unlock perks and we used that specific tool or action to progress and unlock perks, which felt satisfactory to me.

 

But A17,

+ Locked perks no problem same as A16

+ All xp is one big pool, no problem

+ ok I earn those xp, I buy the previous sub-perk requirements, I'll even sacrifice not increasing health, I'll even sacrifice not hitting zombies harder and save those perk points, ok I've done it go to the Int perk page and "No, nope u can't progress." until lvl 20 / 80, etc.

 

It's a strange design and out of place as one of the strong points of 7dtd was always player choice and freedom.

[Zourin]

That's why I keep mentioning forges at lvl 10. Basically, i'm getting at 10 level steps instead of those huge 20 level jumps. That's basically the difference between level 80 and level 40, which sounds surprisingly better and reasonable? It's not like we're getting xp from anything BUT wandering hordes in the daylight and POI's packed with several dozen closet hobos.

 

By level 10, a player should be looking for a meta change, not another 10 levels of smacking things with a stone axe. Somehow, I keep finding compound crossbows, which is neat, but without a trader or a leprechaun crawling up my ass, I won't be able to obtain the forged metal to make repair kits to maintain it. As far as I'm concerned, if you're high enough of a level to suffer that stupid death penalty, you're high enough for a forge.