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When will A17 experimental be released 3?

Roland

By Roland
in General Discussion

When will A17 experimental be released 3?  

318 members have voted

  1. 1. When will A17 experimental be released 3?

    • Monday September 3
      23
    • Monday September 10
      30
    • Monday September 17
      31
    • Monday September 24
      21
    • Monday October 1
      18
    • Monday October 8
      19
    • Monday October 15
      23
    • Monday October 22
      18
    • Monday October 29
      135

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Gazz Leader

Gazz

Posted
Posted

I really only wanted to say that I appreciate any comparison to cake.

 

How would you feel if you bought an EA title, only to find there is absolute standstill and after 4 years they "officially" release v1.0

If that's Electronic Arts - normal.

If Early Access - normal. (because it's kinda the whole point that the game is in development)

 

It's not so uncommon that in-development titles get canceled completely. "The public" only knows about a handful of those. I don't see this happening here so... you're welcome!

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Jedo Colony Founder

Jedo

Posted
Posted
Well everything you said was unconditionally. What you said has no consequence if it doesnt happen.

 

Then you've misinterpreted. My questions were a response to someone saying that a significant delay equals a failure. I was asking whether other significant delays equal a failure, with the implication being that none of my examples would be considered a failure. (Well, not to any rational person.)

 

While I can't (as far as i know) take legal action against EA games not releasing/releasing in an unfinished state, I can be disappointed. I can ask for more and I can be disgruntled if progress is so slow you can barely see it.

 

The fact that you defend it, just because they are legally allowed to do it is something that infuriates me to no end. Because it is used to justify EVERYTHING whenever you give criticism...

 

If you take ANYTHING out of this for the future:

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything and voice their opinion. Especially when they paid for something that doesn't turn out to be about what they expected.

 

I've said this before: You surely can string together whatever words you want to, but there are some caveats here.

 

1) Telling TFP how they should do things or that such-and-such way would be some vague notion of "better" simply is not valid because of your (and everybody else's on the forum) position. There is not a one-size-fits-all model, and we don't have all of the information. Again, you can say whatever you want (within the confines of the forum rules), but those arguments won't have any traction.

 

2) It is reasonable for you to be upset about unmet expectations, but there are some caveats here also.

a) Your unmet expectation is a delay in production, and while frustrating, it will save you a lot of time and energy if you would reserve judgment. After all, delays happen in this world all over the place--some are outside of the control of pretty much everybody and some are chosen because it will result in significant gains to the product. I was super upset (for a day) when the New Mutants movie was pushed back a year, but if the reshoots make it better, I will be totally fine with it. If, in the end, I wait for a year for a product which wasn't worth that wait, then my renewed disfavor will be better placed.

b) Your unmet expectation is unrealistic. If you were told upfront to expect one thing, but you created a different expectation in your mind which was unmet, then the problem lies with you. Feel free to be upset, but it isn't TFP's fault. This happens with people all the time, and it stems from our ability to talk ourselves into a state of denial. "It won't really be like they say." or "That's probably true for other people, but I'm an exception." In the end, when the stated expectation comes true, you have nobody to blame that your expectation wasn't met except for yourself.

 

Anyway, I expect that you will vehemently argue against this, but don't expect me to agree with your position in anyway. We'll see whether you take me at my word.

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Viktoriusiii Leader

Viktoriusiii

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Posted

@Jedo:

Yeah but you are comparing apples and oranges :D At least in my mind.

This game is not unconditionally. The condition beeing, that I paid for access (which i didn'T have in A14&15 btw :D).

I have invested something and expect some sort of return.

A child beeing born 2 weeks later is not a failure, because there is no (additional) investment required. But if the father has taken 2 weeks off to be their for mother and child, then there is.

If a movie gets pushed back then there is no(additional) investment taken.

But if you have booked and paid for a ticket on releaseday, where you have taken a day off and it THEN becomes delayed, there is.

 

You see what I mean? If you have a problem with that is a different story. Maybe you don't care. And obviously I have an understanding in game development and patience... but that will wear off someday. For some it wears off after a few weeks... for some after months or years.

 

 

1) I don't think anyone DEMANDS TFPs to listen to them. (well there are always some pricks who do) but if there is a problem and you give them hints how to fix it or complain that it isn't fixed, that is not an irrational thing to do. And if they ignore you completly, you have the right to get mad.

 

2) generally not wrong. but as I have stated.

-If the plumber tells you he'll come "after 1pm" and he shows up at 10pm... he told you when he would come. If you had different expectations, then this is your problem.- Is not valid, because there are generally some social/economic and other rules and values that contribute to our expectation. As I have said. Legally, the plumber is not in the wrong (maybe some law only allows him to come until 8pm or something but u know what i mean), that doesn'T mean that you have no grounds to complain. It is not your "faulty expectations".

 

PS: sometimes i get condescending, when ppl don't see what I mean. Please do not be offended... its a personal flaw and not an attack on you :D

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Jedo Colony Founder

Jedo

Posted
Posted
@Jedo:

Yeah but you are comparing apples and oranges :D At least in my mind.

This game is not unconditionally. The condition beeing, that I paid for access (which i didn'T have in A14&15 btw :D).

I have invested something and expect some sort of return.

A child beeing born 2 weeks later is not a failure, because there is no (additional) investment required. But if the father has taken 2 weeks off to be their for mother and child, then there is.

If a movie gets pushed back then there is no(additional) investment taken.

But if you have booked and paid for a ticket on releaseday, where you have taken a day off and it THEN becomes delayed, there is.

 

What you are describing and what I am describing are apples and oranges. Things being delayed is not a failure. It's the nature of stuff in this world. That is my point. In your examples, the "failure" actually is on the part of those who foolishly made other plans which did not leave room for potential delays.

 

1) I don't think anyone DEMANDS TFPs to listen to them. (well there are always some pricks who do) but if there is a problem and you give them hints how to fix it or complain that it isn't fixed, that is not an irrational thing to do. And if they ignore you completly, you have the right to get mad.

 

Ummm...no. You can give suggestions (on game stuff, not business model/development stuff), but they have no reason or responsibility to listen to you. You may waste your time and effort getting mad that they ignore you (as anybody could), but it is not justified.

 

2) generally not wrong. but as I have stated.

-If the plumber tells you he'll come "after 1pm" and he shows up at 10pm... he told you when he would come. If you had different expectations, then this is your problem.- Is not valid, because there are generally some social/economic and other rules and values that contribute to our expectation. As I have said. Legally, the plumber is not in the wrong (maybe some law only allows him to come until 8pm or something but u know what i mean), that doesn'T mean that you have no grounds to complain. It is not your "faulty expectations".

 

You are correct that there likely are social customs at play which would make his arrival so late at night inappropriate. That social custom/contract does not apply here because of the nature of EA. You bought and paid for the game as it was, and you get continued access to the development. If you expect more than that, that is your problem. You already have received your product in full. The rest is bonus. You have no grounds to complain that you did not receive the bonus. If your work says that they would like to give everybody a bonus, and at the end of the year are unable to, you have no grounds to complain. You received your regular check as you are owed, and there was no promise or contract to give you the bonus. If you already made plans for that money (or already spent it), the problem lies with you. Notice: In these scenarios, you can be disappointed that you did not receive the bonus, but it was not owed to you and you have no right to demand it.

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Space4Ace Zombie Hunter

Space4Ace

Posted
Posted
Well after today would be 3 weeks without a new video from madmole. In his previous video he talked about maybe a video the following week I wonder if this will be the week.

 

Madmole said "probably" so that's never a guaranty. I'm sure there's other priorities... Like taking a weekend break maybe? :)

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Thadz Refugee

Thadz

Posted
Posted

They made a movie faster than TFP can release an update that is an amazing thing , and to be honest with the new picture i cant really see the graphic difference betwenn a16 and a17 to me its basicly the same texture at 90% nothing close to the AAA game so what is taking so long they said we have a bug BUT what is this bug? we cant know?

 

CAn you telll us what is making you reporting the update week after week ... we all paid for a game we want to know , what , when and why ? .. TELL US WHAT IS THE BUG! and i heard you let down the gerocopter ? it is true? and Why i dont see new way to kill zombie ?

 

We still have the same arsenal for our forteress ? (Shotgun turet - Dart trap - Blade -electric cable and some stuff doing absolutly nothing when u play 64+ Mobs per player ... WE needed new arsenal to make new defense system cause now we still on the same patern we will do mostly the same thing as a16 .... but you will have a jeep to have some fun but at day 7 it will be exacly samething as a16 ... Dont give up but give some info to your fans

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Usimian Refugee

Usimian

Posted
Posted
Game development is not like assembling Ikea furniture. (assuming that all parts were included)

 

Sometimes people expect a certain release date (whether stated or not) and if that isn't met

by this fiendish treachery.

 

Not exactly. People expect a certain release date when one of the devs (MM) explicitly says it will be out in July and then nothing. They should either have said nothing or picked a realistic date. Now they're dealing with well deserved grief.

 

The problem is I've been reluctant to start a new game, put tons of work into it and then have to start over when A17 is released. In hindsight, I probably should have started a new game...

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Gazz Leader

Gazz

Posted
Posted
Now they're dealing with well deserved grief.

Not really. It seems you have a grief problem. It doesn't affect development. =)

 

 

The problem is I've been reluctant to start a new game, put tons of work into it and then have to start over when A17 is released.
Does not compute.

You can not win the game so it makes no difference whether you play 5 days or 500.

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Space4Ace Zombie Hunter

Space4Ace

Posted
Posted
They made a movie faster than TFP can release an update that is an amazing thing , and to be honest with the new picture i cant really see the graphic difference betwenn a16 and a17 to me its basicly the same texture at 90% nothing close to the AAA game so what is taking so long they said we have a bug BUT what is this bug? we cant know?

 

CAn you telll us what is making you reporting the update week after week ... we all paid for a game we want to know , what , when and why ? .. TELL US WHAT IS THE BUG! and i heard you let down the gerocopter ? it is true? and Why i dont see new way to kill zombie ?

 

We still have the same arsenal for our forteress ? (Shotgun turet - Dart trap - Blade -electric cable and some stuff doing absolutly nothing when u play 64+ Mobs per player ... WE needed new arsenal to make new defense system cause now we still on the same patern we will do mostly the same thing as a16 .... but you will have a jeep to have some fun but at day 7 it will be exacly samething as a16 ... Dont give up but give some info to your fans

 

Just be patient man, it will eventually be out.

It's not just one bug, it's some features that are in but not completed, it's a few bugs that are fixed but reappear once other stuff is fixed... And so on.

So, be a nice Quebecois and just relax, start a new game of 7 Days to Die, or play another game, while waiting for this to be good enough to be released... On a Monday sometime... Soon (maybe October???) :)

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Khulkhuum Inventor

Khulkhuum

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Posted
@Jedo:

Yeah but you are comparing apples and oranges :D At least in my mind.

This game is not unconditionally. The condition beeing, that I paid for access (which i didn'T have in A14&15 btw :D).

I have invested something and expect some sort of return.

A child beeing born 2 weeks later is not a failure, because there is no (additional) investment required. But if the father has taken 2 weeks off to be their for mother and child, then there is.

If a movie gets pushed back then there is no(additional) investment taken.

But if you have booked and paid for a ticket on releaseday, where you have taken a day off and it THEN becomes delayed, there is.

 

You see what I mean? If you have a problem with that is a different story. Maybe you don't care. And obviously I have an understanding in game development and patience... but that will wear off someday. For some it wears off after a few weeks... for some after months or years.

 

 

1) I don't think anyone DEMANDS TFPs to listen to them. (well there are always some pricks who do) but if there is a problem and you give them hints how to fix it or complain that it isn't fixed, that is not an irrational thing to do. And if they ignore you completly, you have the right to get mad.

 

2) generally not wrong. but as I have stated.

-If the plumber tells you he'll come "after 1pm" and he shows up at 10pm... he told you when he would come. If you had different expectations, then this is your problem.- Is not valid, because there are generally some social/economic and other rules and values that contribute to our expectation. As I have said. Legally, the plumber is not in the wrong (maybe some law only allows him to come until 8pm or something but u know what i mean), that doesn'T mean that you have no grounds to complain. It is not your "faulty expectations".

 

PS: sometimes i get condescending, when ppl don't see what I mean. Please do not be offended... its a personal flaw and not an attack on you :D

 

There are so many holes in those statements... Logic holes i mean, because you Sir have been shifting "blame" (from a lack of a better word let's use this one) all around, but don't see the inner workings here. Let me respond to that:

 

0. If you book a holiday for the due date of your child and it comes 2 weeks late it's your fault, not the childs. It is in the same manner as if you booked the same 2 week holiday to help your wife/woman (presumably quite a lot earlier), but the child came to be 2 weeks earlier. Or from another standpoint - You bought one baby crib, but you got twins or triplets (people sometimes don't notice that on USG). This is simply planning for a situation where you don't know every variable - you would have to get GOD level access to all of the baby stats to be 100% THE DAY is THE DAY, not some other one. As you do not have all this info, doctors guess on the birth day is definitely better than most people, but it is still a guess and not a 100% fact, because like i said, lack of all the stats.

 

1. TFPs give a lot of feedback on what they are doing, what they have worked on and also what you can expect of the update. Sure, unforseen consequences, but everyone saying that they don't care, don't listen or don't bother are simply blind, disregard the truth or are simply stupid. That is my personal view on the matter, but considering the amount of information they sent for this update, i am pretty sure i got the statement through.

 

2. IF i call a plumber and he tells me he'll come after 1pm, but he does not come until let's say 2.30pm i start calling him demanding explanations. By 10pm i would have the problem solved already with this plumber or another, more reliable one simply. This is what i call being responsible for your and other peoples time. If someone tells me he will be at some time, i don't expect a couple hours of wait. If he stated that he probably would be at 1pm, but will call when his current job ends that is okay, because he states that it can take longer. Still it is in my decision to agree or to seek another who is more free with his time at the moment.

 

As i assume, point #2 is towards the time spent on the A17 being in development. Sure, fine... But noone said it would be exactly on a specific day/month, although there were estimations on the time. Like in my example with the plumber: "Sure, i could be available on 1pm, but i don't know exactly how my current work will go and it could go as far as me being free on 10pm" is way more reliable than someone saying "Sure, i'll be on 1pm" and without any information coming back around 10pm. If such a person would come, i would simply shut the door against his face.

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skullpoker Reconstructionist

skullpoker

Posted
Posted
You can not win the game.

 

Crap. I lost the game. Thanks a lot.

 

I other news, I'm not really salty that 17 isn't out yet because there was some news about it posted. 'Updated UNITY version, more content being added, many yadda's' Those kinds of updates are great for alleviating distress over delays, so I suggest a closed thread specifically for that sort of updates in parallel to the Developer Diary, since I wouldn't guess that many people click back to read the first page often.

 

Li'l bit, not too salty tho.

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Frisky Minx Survivor

Frisky Minx

Posted
Posted
hmmmm is it ?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

are we there yet TFP 16 sept still nothing from the last ronald post did i miss something or we are back in the void again

Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video...Video!!!!!

 

I predict: A17E Release during the Beta for a different Game with the Number 76 in it.

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meganoth The Governor

meganoth

Posted
Posted

You want to surprise someone with a huge cake.

You go to the bakery and say "look! i want this cake can you do it?"

and they say "yup. I don't know how fast I can make it because it is so specific, but I will. And on every step, I will notify you and send you a big tastetest of what is already finished (bottom, cream, topping and so on)."

 

The cake example has the problem that in reality you would order a cake for a specific date (the birthday of that person or a scheduled visit). The thing is time would be important in this case. And that is a reasonable approach for buying anything: Whichever conditions are important to you (i.e. if the cake has a cherry on top, if it arrives in time) you specify or check before the buy, everything else you leave to the discretion of the seller. But if the seller for example says I can't guarantee what you are asking for (the cherry or the delivery date) then it is your choice to still buy or not. But if you then buy, don't fret if in the end there is no cherry on top.

 

So lets look at a different example, a fusion reaktor. Governments give money and "order" working fusion reaktors for decades now. Because the scientists can't give any accurate dates for success (even worse than game development, obviously), governments didn't even ask for a specific date to be announced and it was the governments decision to give the money anyway. The fusion reaktor is still not finished, but do you see governments grumble constantly that they were promised a fusion reaktor NOW ? And if yes, did they form false expectations that simply can't be fullfilled by the scientists?

 

But lets talk about EA specifically. It is a development model where time between alpha releases and time to complete is neither in the contract nor has there been enough precedent for anyone to form "reasonable" expectations. You made assumptions about EA that are too narrow, which is understandable because of general lack of experience with that model (like the father who thought the estimation of the doctor was accurate and found out a baby can be weeks early or late. He probably won't make this mistake again).

But it simply means for you time of delivery is important and you therefore should ask EA projects to give you time guarantees and if they don't do that to your satisfaction (most of them won't), skip them. That a few other EA projects actually met your expectations generates no obligation for other EA titles to do that as well.

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